Tesla Models S/X vs. high end BMW models

[Sedoy]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I'm not using the little sold short wheel base models, in using the most commonly sold normal size.

FYI: you listed "2012 BMW 750i" which is SWB. But that's cool, just come up with another excuse...

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

None today. Drove 200 miles so far through south Florida. Boca raton and ft Lauderdale area. Plenty of Porsche panamericas and maserati quattroportes.

Saw a glorious Blue new Panamera Turbo yesterday. Not gonna lie, I?d buy Pana Wagon long before any Model S.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Saw a glorious Blue new Panamera Turbo yesterday. Not gonna lie, I?d buy Pana Wagon long before any Model S.

Love panamericas. 3 in my neighborhood.

[Sedoy]

I'm personally waiting for this, hope those doors will make it...

[Archie Bunker]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Love panamericas. 3 in my neighborhood.

We get it, you live in a sweet neighborhood with lots of expensive cars.

I don't disagree with your sentiments towards Tesla. That being said, I think it's economically closed minded to think of your personal bubble as an appropriate sample for the macroeconomics of auto sales as a whole. Your arguments are much more sound when NOT referring to what you see on a daily basis and seemingly tainted by strong negative bias.

The same goes for solstice. There is so much unpredictable human behavior that skews the statistics of what you see in your PNW bubble. Unfortunately, we all have mainly the media to thank for giving us a "sound data points" about happenings nationally.

That being said, I think EV cars are the future. I do NOT, however, think they are the near future. My uncertainty enters around 15 years from now.

[Fundguy1]

I also said the macroeconomic view. ICE won't be replaced without government intervention. I hope that never happens. The future role of EVs is another alternative similar to diesels and hybrids, probably with similar sales.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I also said the macroeconomic view. ICE won't be replaced without government intervention. I hope that never happens. The future role of EVs is another alternative similar to diesels and hybrids, probably with similar sales.

You realize every single MB will be a hybrid in five years, right? Not a few, not most, but literally every single MB and AMG. Their new nine speed transmissions have a spot for the electric motor that?s currently empty in non hybrids, but they?ve stated that they?ll begin including them soon.

Now it won?t be anything crazy, just a mild, non plug in for most cars, but plug ins and full EV will be an option for every model range.

You make a modicum of sense when discussing pure EVs but clearly haven?t looked at the internet in a few years if you think hybrids won?t be prevalent within half a decade. Volvo, MB and others have already committed to it.

Dammit Apple, fix my stupid apostrophes already!!!

[Fundguy1]

Finally saw one ev. Was a tesla s. On a tow truck.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

You realize every single MB will be a hybrid in five years, right? Not a few, not most, but literally every single MB and AMG. Their new nine speed transmissions have a spot for the electric motor that?s currently empty in non hybrids, but they?ve stated that they?ll begin including them soon.

Now it won?t be anything crazy, just a mild, non plug in for most cars, but plug ins and full EV will be an option for every model range.

You make a modicum of sense when discussing pure EVs but clearly haven?t looked at the internet in a few years if you think hybrids won?t be prevalent within half a decade. Volvo, MB and others have already committed to it.

Dammit Apple, fix my stupid apostrophes already!!!

No problem with hybrids. As long as they add power like la ferrari instead of replacing some ice power like prius, I mean i8 lol.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Finally saw one ev. Was a tesla s. On a tow truck.

Because you never see ICE cars on a tow truck? Come on dude get real.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I hope that never happens.

why?

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by jmg

why?

Because for me personally, and a lot of people, probably a majority, they're superior in every way. I love manual trans, matching revs, sound, smell, working on them, all the joy I get from a car is ripped out of an ev. It has nothing, zero for me. Switching from an M5 to a tesla s would be like trading a playboy playmate for a blowup doll.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by solstice

Correct . Seattle.

But it's not just to show they can spend money, they actually love them and rave about how they will never go back to a non electric...you know the risk to get gasoline on their hands or inhale vapors and all of that...

I believe the Seattle area is the largest market for Tesla outside of CA.

Having lived in Seattle for over a decade now and dealing regularly with Tesla aficianados in both my professional and personal life, I frankly find them to be a bunch of insufferable nerds.

The cars and their tech is cool, but stop trying to act like its superior to X Y or Z sports car cause it's fast in a straight line. It's equivalent to Billy Bob thinking his Challenger is hot shyt compared to real sports cars. Tesla people are not car guys, they are tech nerds and their [lack of] knowledge of automobiles reflects that.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Because for me personally, and a lot of people, probably a majority, they're superior in every way. I love manual trans, matching revs, sound, smell, working on them, all the joy I get from a car is ripped out of an ev. It has nothing, zero for me. Switching from an M5 to a tesla s would be like trading a playboy playmate for a blowup doll.

Does your personal opinion and situation have a universal adapter on it?
Do you drive an M5?

Originally Posted by Germanauto

I frankly find them to be a bunch of insufferable nerds.

[Fundguy1]

Lol. I'm a real car guy. Cars are horsepower, noise, handling, braking, shifting. They aren't iPads. Every new option detracts from the experience. Traction control, fwd, awd, forced induction, automatics of any kind, etc etc etc. Cars get worse and worse every year. Not from a numbers standpoint, from an emotional connection and enjoyment standpoint.

Watch this and stop being the stupid german. For ev guys I don't use the taser. I have more effective toys.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Lol. I'm a real car guy.

Again, do you drive an M5? How about the Aston Martin V12 Vantage that you linked to?

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by jmg

Again, do you drive an M5? How about the Aston Martin V12 Vantage that you linked to?

I'm shopping for one now to be my slow daily driver. I drive an e93 that's faster with 700 rwhp 700 rwtq and a MANUAL transmission. No electronic steering, turn off the reaction control, 305 rear tires, LSD, kwv2 coils, etc, etc, etc. Every performance mod you can do has been done. Currently its having a 1m front bump and a Vorsteiner CF trunklid installed. From there it goes to the shop to have a built block put in it. I bought it new and have 240k on it. It is my daily currently. I eat modified MB e63s, for get that, most Lamborghinis for breakfast while the roof is down drinking a latte in my sorority girl sleeper car.
You were saying?

I sent the link not because I want the Aston, because I want all sports cars to be like the Aston. Real, not gizmos. Watch to understand.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

I believe the Seattle area is the largest market for Tesla outside if CA.

Having lived in Seattle for over a decade now and dealing regularly with Tesla aficianados in both my professional and personal life, I frankly find them to be a bunch of insufferable nerds.

The cars and their tech is cool, but stop trying to act like its superior to X Y or Z sports car cause it's fast in a straight line. It's equivalent to Billy Bob thinking his Challenger is hot shyt compared to real sports cars. Tesla people are not car guys, they are tech nerds and their [lack of] knowledge of automobiles reflects that.

What I see most behind the wheel of Teslas are women and business guys in shirt and tie. Neither look like or speak like "car guys" but they are likely much more representative of the typical BMW buyer than bimmerpost petrol heads

I for sure aren't arguing that they are better than ICEs for a car guy but that's not the point I'm making, it is that Tesla is making a dent in the segments they play, $100k luxury sedans and SUVs and to not think that can translate to the $40k entry luxury sedan segment is a brave bet that I wouldn't do if I were BMW.

I like high revving NA I6s, V8s, V10s and V12 and highly communicative hydraulic steering and passive meticulously tuned suspension but cancelling that did not make a dent in BMWs sales numbers. Petrol heads preferences don't decide sales success or bust for BMW and it's competitors. Once they did play an important role but not in today's market and buyer profiles.

Btw whoever wrote that our anecdotal, personal bubble observation has little value is also right. But sales numbers matter and in the U.S there is no denying Tesla is making a dent in the upper luxury market since data support it.

[Fundguy1]

Anecdotal doesnt mstter, true. But the numbers don't bear it out. Yes the S and x have sold. But that's two models with average sales numbers. How many models does bmw, MB, and every other luxury maker have out? 40? 60? It's still a small % of total luxury sales. Same for volts, leafs, etc. In total car sales its still less than 1%. They aren't taking over the world. They've been out for years. They'll solidify a niche market and stabilize. Again, probably similar to diesels. I doubt highly they will even approach hybrid sales as hybrids are best of both worlds. Economical and don't have the shortcomings of range and refueling issues.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I'm shopping for one now to be my slow daily driver. I drive an e93 that's faster with 700 rwhp 700 rwtq and a MANUAL transmission. No electronic steering, turn off the reaction control, 305 rear tires, LSD, kwv2 coils, etc, etc, etc. Every performance mod you can do has been done. Currently its having a 1m front bump and a Vorsteiner CF trunklid installed. From there it goes to the shop to have a built block put in it. I bought it new and have 240k on it. It is my daily currently. I eat modified MB e63s, for get that, most Lamborghinis for breakfast while the roof is down drinking a latte in my sorority girl sleeper car.
You were saying?

I sent the link not because I want the Aston, because I want all sports cars to be like the Aston. Real, not gizmos. Watch to understand.

I'm saying there are more than one true of car guys. You are one of them. I'm another, and there are 1000+ other types. I'm not a wrenched, I don't drive old cars that are modded, that's doesn't fit my lifestyle, I'm too busy. I see the practicality in a new car, even an EV, and while newer cars are heavier, have more nanny controls, I adapt because I have to have new. Why are your priorities more important or more universal than mine?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Anecdotal doesnt mstter, true. But the numbers don't bear it out. Yes the S and x have sold. But that's two models with average sales numbers. How many models does bmw, MB, and every other luxury maker have out? 40? 60? It's still a small % of total luxury sales. Same for volts, leafs, etc. In total car sales its still less than 1%. They aren't taking over the world. They've been out for years. They'll solidify a niche market and stabilize. Again, probably similar to diesels. I doubt highly they will even approach hybrid sales as hybrids are best of both worlds. Economical and don't have the shortcomings of range and refueling issues.

That's a different topic though, i.e When EVs will dominate all car sales. Not soon.
But I think that if Tesla can deliver to keep up with orders Model 3 can be a significant player in the 3 series segment. I believe this based upon Tesla's status as a trendy car, current pre-order volume, owner satisfaction etc. However I give it a small chance they can keep announced pricing and produce enough volume for this segment.

[CosmosMpower]

Lots of Teslas in DFW. I test drove a P100D Model S a month or so ago, the 0-60 launch was pretty nuts. Instant torque, no noise just flings you off into the distance. It was more brutal than even my R35 GT-R launched but very smooth also.

I feel like it's a 7 series size car despite the dimensions on paper. The back seat has tons of leg room and you can fit a mountain bike inside the back hatch with the rear seats folded down. The interior is pretty meh, a lot nicer than the early model S though. The screen is pretty stupid. I prefer a smaller screen with some physical knobs for things like A/C and stereo volume. It's hard to drive and use a slider on a screen for something as simple as turning up the stereo.

The sticker on the one I drove was $163K, I'll pass. I do have a reservation on a Model 3 though. Might be a nice appliance to drive around for commuting/errands. If the tax credit is gone I'll probably pass.