Disappointed in Porsche 718...

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by chassis

Agree. If price and Porsche are used in the same sentence, the shopper is barking up the wrong tree. Porsche will never “make sense” on a price basis. You want it or you don’t. Same with any car at the Porsche level and above: Ferrari, Aston, Lambo, Bentley, Rolls, McLaren etc. At these price levels it’s not a practical math equation, it’s an emotional impulse.

You and Superman are absolutely correct. The only thing is that the price premiums are crazy and getting crazier for Pcars but they aren't really looked upon as true exotics, so the question is why would anyone shell out that kinda $$$$$$ when they can get into a Fcar, Macca, etc? Then we go back to value vs image and how much of each do buyers care about.

[gonzo]

Porsches rarely break. So there's that.
Fill it up and stomp the crap out of it until empty.
Let's be honest, that can't be said about some really great cars.
Germans are also reserved by nature.
Engineering over pizazz.

[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by tranquility

You and Superman are absolutely correct. The only thing is that the price premiums are crazy and getting crazier for Pcars but they aren't really looked upon as true exotics, so the question is why would anyone shell out that kinda $$$$$$ when they can get into a Fcar, Macca, etc? Then we go back to value vs image and how much of each do buyers care about.

Parts/repairs/maintenance on Ferraris and McLarens are a lot more expensive than Porsche and they're a lot less reliable, that's why. You can drive a 911 for 60k miles without it breaking a sweat but 20k miles is high mileage on the Ferrari or McLaren. They're also very, very different experiences, and many people don't live near a dealer or good indy shop for the exotics which can make ownership a royal PITA if something goes wrong.

That said, prices for everything are way up. A new Purosangue is $500k, a 296 is $400-500k, etc. I'd say the prices for new Ferrari/McLaren have shot up even more than Porsche. Isn't a new 750S pushing $500k too?

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

Parts/repairs/maintenance on Ferraris and McLarens are a lot more expensive than Porsche and they're a lot less reliable, that's why. You can drive a 911 for 60k miles without it breaking a sweat but 20k miles is high mileage on the Ferrari or McLaren. They're also very, very different experiences, and many people don't live near a dealer or good indy shop for the exotics which can make ownership a royal PITA if something goes wrong.

See what I mean? Who says we can't talk about Pcars and *value* in the same sentence?

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Porches rarely break. So there's that.
Fill it up and stomp the crap out of it until empty.
Let's be honest, that can't be said about some really great cars.
Germans are also reserved by nature.
Engineering over pizazz.

Porches break all the time. Most are made out of wood and the exposure to the outdoor elements causes decay.

Here are some amazing ideas though for porches:

https://www.pinterest.com/LuciaEastep/porches/

[Alfisti]

THe price thing really comes down to comparables right. And there is no direct comparison if we're talking Cayman.

On the sportscar front, the Miata is the serious contender but it is seriously under powered vs a Cayman. So go the other way, let's say a Z4, is it that much cheaper than a Cayman? It's certainly heavier.

Supra? Faster in a straight line but heavier no? Maybe that is the true legit contender? Quick comparison has the 3T Supra some 400 lbs heavier but 30 more HP and 60 more torques than the Cayman. Price gap is about $20K USD. Supra seems a logical option if you can live with the extra 400 lbs.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Porches break all the time. Most are made out of wood and the exposure to the outdoor elements causes decay.

Here are some amazing ideas though for porches:

https://www.pinterest.com/LuciaEastep/porches/

😄
I
Have
Got
To
Stop
Relying
On
Autofill


Thanks

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

THe price thing really comes down to comparables right. And there is no direct comparison if we're talking Cayman.

On the sportscar front, the Miata is the serious contender but it is seriously under powered vs a Cayman. So go the other way, let's say a Z4, is it that much cheaper than a Cayman? It's certainly heavier.

Supra? Faster in a straight line but heavier no? Maybe that is the true legit contender? Quick comparison has the 3T Supra some 400 lbs heavier but 30 more HP and 60 more torques than the Cayman. Price gap is about $20K USD. Supra seems a logical option if you can live with the extra 400 lbs.

To me doesn't matter if I got all the money in the world, out of these choices, it would be the Miata cuz I only drive on public roads and don't track. Some ppl buy for prestige or ego and that's cool but when even my car's too powerful for the streets, it gets pointless chasing numbers for numbers' sake unless one wants to break traffic laws.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by tranquility

To me doesn't matter if I got all the money in the world, out of these choices, it would be the Miata cuz I only drive on public roads and don't track. Some ppl buy for prestige or ego and that's cool but when even my car's too powerful for the streets, it gets pointless chasing numbers for numbers' sake unless one wants to break traffic laws.

That's why I'm sticking with my old rustbucket for a fun weekend car, I just cannot beat the Miata experience especially considering I'm not tracking and I'm at the age where I'm not trying to break the law or kill myself to have fun.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

THe price thing really comes down to comparables right. And there is no direct comparison if we're talking Cayman.

On the sportscar front, the Miata is the serious contender but it is seriously under powered vs a Cayman. So go the other way, let's say a Z4, is it that much cheaper than a Cayman? It's certainly heavier.

Supra? Faster in a straight line but heavier no? Maybe that is the true legit contender? Quick comparison has the 3T Supra some 400 lbs heavier but 30 more HP and 60 more torques than the Cayman. Price gap is about $20K USD. Supra seems a logical option if you can live with the extra 400 lbs.

You are comparing it to a bunch of cars though... that's why I'll argue $$ does matter even when buying a Porsche. I could have afforded a 718 boxster no problem, but for me the value for more than double the cost of the miata was not there. I personally prefer the NA engine in the miata even if it is slower. Now that probably wouldn't have been the case with the 4.0 but now we are talking 4x a Miata.

On the other hand I would have never even considered a Ferrari or McLaren etc.

[baege]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

The cost of a Porsche is hard to judge, what drives the price a lot is the lack of depreciation. A new study was released today that ranked cars from ones that hold value the best to the worst and number 1 ... .911.

So I paid a horrible amount of money for a 2009 911 with 65K KM ($68K CDN) but I know I can sell it for that or even more 18 months later.

wow you got a sweet deal on that 911 at that price 18 months ago!

[baege]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

Most folks cannot see beyond BMW, it's their North Star. We're on a BMW forum afterall so this isn't terribly surprising. If folks are challenging the Porsche value proposition (which I don't agree with btw), what about BMW? It's a shell of what it used to be and the grift is apparent. Their cars have gotten very expensive in short order and what are you getting for that? You're getting a bloated, overweight automobile, with an obscene and unnecessary amount of technology with a severely compromised sensory experience. They're hardly making the ultimate driving machine, not even close. It's wild to me the G80 M3 Comp is touching $90K decently optioned and that's without carbon buckets and ceramic brakes. The entry level X3 moderately optioned is around $60K. Even through evolution Porsche has maintained the integrity of the brand. With Porsche at least you know exactly what you're getting, and if you don't it's clearly not for you.

they may be bloated and not as connected as they used to be, but the BMW DNA is still there, go drive an audi/mercedes and the comparable bmw in the range and you can tell the difference in pure driving enjoyment and connection
if you value driving enjoyment and connection with the car, bmw still overs value over other comparably priced brands

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I wanted to become a member of the Pcar family but 'un/fortunately', I still place importance in *value*, and -for me- it didn't make sense when I was shopping new to get a Cayman w lower power but almost $20K(!) more vs my Z4 (and this was back in the day, I don't know the price craziness now).

Porsche is a funny brand because their icon will always be the 911, even though the Cayman is the better driver's car. For unfair reasons, some other ppl will look at those who bought the latter as supposedly not being able to afford the 'real' Porsche (which is nonsense) and the company itself will invariably make sure that it doesn't step on the 'hallowed' 911 by intentionally keeping it underpowered and not to its full potential, which is really, really aggravating. All this affects how some ppl want to be viewed by others, and they don't even really bother w what is actually the better driver's car but rather the image of a certain model and the sound...I had an old thread where a lot ppl would choose a wicked-sounding car that handled like crap instead of an awesome handling car that sounded bad, which is just totally missing the mark if one claims to be a true driving enthusiast.

In late 2014 I was on the search to add a sports coupe to the fleet. The quest started with the then new C7 LT1, but I couldn't reach deep enough to consider driving a V8 occasionally on my 165-mile daily commute. So, I turned to the 1st gen Cayman as the next choice with the thought to try something different than a BMW. I found a CPO 2008 Base Cayman optioned with the S wheels. Test drove it the Saturday after Thanksgiving in 2014. I wasn't all that impressed with it. I drove it on the best curvy roads you can find near Tysons Corner, Virginia (there are a few). The steering didn't give me hand orgasms and as I was expecting. Perhaps the mid-engine chassis, I guess, was just so completely neutral to the point it was boring(?). And WTF, you can't see the engine? In a Porsche? I found that really funny. The following week I planned to go back to buy it regardless, but after doing my homework and not being satisfied with the answers to the IMS bearing issue, I was getting cold feet. I drove it again and decided I didn't fit the interior very well. Being broad shouldered is not a design consideration Porsche gave the Cayman. And being CPO didn't mean much as far as purchase security went. The car I was considering turned out to be a service loaner from a dealership in Wilmington, South Carolina.

On the drive home from the dealership it dawned on me that BMW had dropped the E86 Z4 Coupe on the world (a year after I bought my E90). I recalled the Bimmer magazine review of it at the time. The E86 never sold well for some reason, but like your car and the 2nd gen Cayman, the E86 weighed a bit more but had about 20HP more power than the 1st gen Cayman. By mid-December 2014 I had bought my low mileage black 2008 E86 3.0si Coupe. They will have to bury me in it, as it will be my last possession when I leave this earth. A way better car than it's Cayman counterpart. IMO.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by tranquility

To me doesn't matter if I got all the money in the world, out of these choices, it would be the Miata cuz I only drive on public roads and don't track. Some ppl buy for prestige or ego and that's cool but when even my car's too powerful for the streets, it gets pointless chasing numbers for numbers' sake unless one wants to break traffic laws.

I am all for the whole "too much power is pointless" argument, one of the reasons i don't really lust for a Turbo 911 or anything else that makes huge numbers. I don't think a Cayman though, tips over that edge, what it does offer is a bit of a kick in the pants the Miata just cannot deliver.

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

You are comparing it to a bunch of cars though... that's why I'll argue $$ does matter even when buying a Porsche. I could have afforded a 718 boxster no problem, but for me the value for more than double the cost of the miata was not there. I personally prefer the NA engine in the miata even if it is slower.

We are in agreement that the NA engines feel better in cars like these. I have driven a Miata, fine vehicle but for me it just felt like it was missing 50 to 75 HP. I am not out to break land speed records, I got into an argument with a member here in another thread saying chasing 500HP was a bit silly on public roads. In the end, i guess this is why the Miata and the Cayman exist right.

Originally Posted by baege

wow you got a sweet deal on that 911 at that price 18 months ago!

Sort of. I'd say good, not great. Mine is a PDK cab so saved a lot vs a hard top manual. I also have a small claim on the front left corner that kept things reasonable with the price point and the mrs. I do regret not pulling the trigger on a manual GTS cab with just 45KM for $87K, I thought it was too much at the time (2019) but they now trade for about $120K. Counter argument is with taxes i have best part of $25k in my pocket.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

In late 2014 I was on the search to add a sports coupe to the fleet. The quest started with the then new C7 LT1, but I couldn't reach deep enough to consider driving a V8 occasionally on my 165-mile daily commute. So, I turned to the 1st gen Cayman as the next choice with the thought to try something different than a BMW. I found a CPO 2008 Base Cayman optioned with the S wheels. Test drove it the Saturday after Thanksgiving in 2014. I wasn't all that impressed with it. I drove it on the best curvy roads you can find near Tysons Corner, Virginia (there are a few). The steering didn't give me hand orgasms and as I was expecting. Perhaps the mid-engine chassis, I guess, was just so completely neutral to the point it was boring(?). And WTF, you can't see the engine? In a Porsche? I found that really funny. The following week I planned to go back to buy it regardless, but after doing my homework and not being satisfied with the answers to the IMS bearing issue, I was getting cold feet. I drove it again and decided I didn't fit the interior very well. Being broad shouldered is not a design consideration Porsche gave the Cayman. And being CPO didn't mean much as far as purchase security went. The car I was considering turned out to be a service loaner from a dealership in Wilmington, South Carolina.

On the drive home from the dealership it dawned on me that BMW had dropped the E86 Z4 Coupe on the world (a year after I bought my E90). I recalled the Bimmer magazine review of it at the time. The E86 never sold well for some reason, but like your car and the 2nd gen Cayman, the E86 weighed a bit more but had about 20HP more power than the 1st gen Cayman. By mid-December 2014 I had bought my low mileage black 2008 E86 3.0si Coupe. They will have to bury me in it, as it will be my last possession when I leave this earth. A way better car than it's Cayman counterpart. IMO.

The E86 is an underrated sportscar and I was wanting to get that but they went 2nd gen on me and I prefer to buy new, so bad timing for me.

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I am all for the whole "too much power is pointless" argument, one of the reasons i don't really lust for a Turbo 911 or anything else that makes huge numbers. I don't think a Cayman though, tips over that edge, what it does offer is a bit of a kick in the pants the Miata just cannot deliver.

Ya, can't go wrong w either car.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Porsches rarely break. So there's that.
Fill it up and stomp the crap out of it until empty.
Let's be honest, that can't be said about some really great cars.
Germans are also reserved by nature.
Engineering over pizazz.

Porsches aren't remotely reliable as the masses believe. They're also maintenance hogs and prices to repair by Porsche and even an independent shop are pretty amusing.

Basically every generation Porsche sports car has some REALLY expensive issue lurking the dark and it's usually associated with causing some major engine or transmission failure. To fix these issues right, you're often looking at a 5 figure repair.

After hours and hours of research, I determined the 987.2 Base to be safest reliability bet for a later model NA Porsche. It doesn't have an IMS bearing and the motor seems generally immune to the cylinder bore scoring issue that effects every other 987 and 997 generation car including the .2 models.

Overall though, these cars are engineered really well barring some of the expensive potential engine issues. I've had a lot of my 987.2 Cayman apart and everything is robust and comes apart nicely and goes back together tight and only one way. Then there's the body and chassis. My 987.2 weighs about 2980lbs with just under 1/2 tank of fuel and nothing else in the car. The body panels are THICK. There is so much weight in the car from thick panels, insulated interior panels, super beefy suspension and drive axles, and such. The roof sounds and feels completely solid. In comparison, our 2020 4Runner and 2015 Outback feel like sheet metal is half as thick and you can easily flex every panel with barely any force. Everything on those cars sounds very hollow and cheap in comparison. On the Cayman, nothing gives and nothing sounds hollow. The car could easily be 150-200lbs lighter if they made the panels and body like a Miata or GR86.

[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Porsches aren't remotely reliable as the masses believe. They're also maintenance hogs and prices to repair by Porsche and even an independent shop are pretty amusing.

Basically every generation Porsche sports car has some REALLY expensive issue lurking the dark and it's usually associated with causing some major engine or transmission failure. To fix these issues right, you're often looking at a 5 figure repair.

After hours and hours of research, I determined the 987.2 Base to be safest reliability bet for a later model NA Porsche. It doesn't have an IMS bearing and the motor seems generally immune to the cylinder bore scoring issue that effects every other 987 and 997 generation car including the .2 models.

Overall though, these cars are engineered really well barring some of the expensive potential engine issues. I've had a lot of my 987.2 Cayman apart and everything is robust and comes apart nicely and goes back together tight and only one way. Then there's the body and chassis. My 987.2 weighs about 2980lbs with just under 1/2 tank of fuel and nothing else in the car. The body panels are THICK. There is so much weight in the car from thick panels, insulated interior panels, super beefy suspension and drive axles, and such. The roof sounds and feels completely solid. In comparison, our 2020 4Runner and 2015 Outback feel like sheet metal is half as thick and you can easily flex every panel with barely any force. Everything on those cars sounds very hollow and cheap in comparison. On the Cayman, nothing gives and nothing sounds hollow. The car could easily be 150-200lbs lighter if they made the panels and body like a Miata or GR86.

Just anecdotal but I've had 10 Porsches including 7 911's, a Cayenne Turbo, a Macan GTS, and a Panamera Turbo S and have never had a major issue with any of them, just standard maintenance items. Helps to have a good indy shop nearby but I don't find the maintenance/repairs to be any more expensive than other German brands. Meanwhile every BMW I've ever had was constantly leaking something and the repair costs over a much shorter ownership period far exceeded Porsche, including having to replace the whole engine in my E92 after it blew for the second time (first time under warranty).

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Porsches aren't remotely reliable as the masses believe. They're also maintenance hogs and prices to repair by Porsche and even an independent shop are pretty amusing.

Basically every generation Porsche sports car has some REALLY expensive issue lurking the dark and it's usually associated with causing some major engine or transmission failure. To fix these issues right, you're often looking at a 5 figure repair.

After hours and hours of research, I determined the 987.2 Base to be safest reliability bet for a later model NA Porsche. It doesn't have an IMS bearing and the motor seems generally immune to the cylinder bore scoring issue that effects every other 987 and 997 generation car including the .2 models.

Overall though, these cars are engineered really well barring some of the expensive potential engine issues. I've had a lot of my 987.2 Cayman apart and everything is robust and comes apart nicely and goes back together tight and only one way. Then there's the body and chassis. My 987.2 weighs about 2980lbs with just under 1/2 tank of fuel and nothing else in the car. The body panels are THICK. There is so much weight in the car from thick panels, insulated interior panels, super beefy suspension and drive axles, and such. The roof sounds and feels completely solid. In comparison, our 2020 4Runner and 2015 Outback feel like sheet metal is half as thick and you can easily flex every panel with barely any force. Everything on those cars sounds very hollow and cheap in comparison. On the Cayman, nothing gives and nothing sounds hollow. The car could easily be 150-200lbs lighter if they made the panels and body like a Miata or GR86.

I'll hold firm, relatively to other high enders, that they are tanks. Relative, implied, is key in my previous post. I didn't mean to incenuate carefree or modern pushrods simplistic.

[tranquility]

All I know is there was a YT reviewer who launched a 911? 50x in a row w/o any prbs so that's gotta count for something. *Shrug*

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

Just anecdotal but I've had 10 Porsches including 7 911's, a Cayenne Turbo, a Macan GTS, and a Panamera Turbo S and have never had a major issue with any of them, just standard maintenance items. Helps to have a good indy shop nearby but I don't find the maintenance/repairs to be any more expensive than other German brands. Meanwhile every BMW I've ever had was constantly leaking something and the repair costs over a much shorter ownership period far exceeded Porsche, including having to replace the whole engine in my E92 after it blew for the second time (first time under warranty).

Really? I have found Porsche maintenance to be considerably more expensive than any BMW I have owned. A simple oil change can be $300 at an Indy shop and $400+ at the dealership. Any sort of 20k, 40k, etc mile service will cost thousands. The Porsche tax makes the M tax look like a drop in the bucket.

[RM7]

I got a friend with a 718 they just bought with the 6cyl and it died on them, got it checked out, bad rings in a cylinder and recommended full rebuild.

Part of this though is the 10 year old used car. You buy a 10 year old used car or older...expect issues. People tend to have a nostalgic view of cars they owned they bought new or somewhere much closer to. In many cases, you are going to be dumping money into it. I've had a few used cars and more than a few had notable issues...issues that could be or were fixed, but I've kind of learned that lesson, that more than 10 years old is going to be a "mechanics special" in many ways, whether you do the work or someone else does.

Properly maintained, a Porsche will do great at the track and you can beat it over and over.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Really? I have found Porsche maintenance to be considerably more expensive than any BMW I have owned. A simple oil change can be $300 at an Indy shop and $400+ at the dealership. Any sort of 20k, 40k, etc mile service will cost thousands. The Porsche tax makes the M tax look like a drop in the bucket.

This has been my case also. Just under $300 for oil change on the Cayenne at indy shop. I've been quoted between $500-$600 at dealers. I take the F350 to the dealer for oil changes and it's always $150 or less and that bitch uses like 85 gallons of oil. Brake job around $3k was the quote at indy and close to $5k at dealer. If I were to buy the parts alone and do it myself it's almost $1500.

I bought my Cayenne with 50k miles. Luckily it has 3 years CPO. Battery died day after I got it. It's apparently some proprietary lithium battery and it's like $3k to replace and they seem to go bad a lot (luckily dealer covered it as it was day after because I've heard neither CPO nor regular warrant cover it).

I've also had an oil leak for about a year that first dealer brushed off and said they couldn't find any leak then ignored me when I had my indy confirm it was still leaking and provided photos. Had to take it to another dealer who found engine mount leaking... had to get that replaced under CPO. Wipers never worked properly, had to get new sensor.

Car is now at 70k miles so not horrible, better than my 335i which spent more time at the dealer than at my house, but not as good as my 2006 Z4M which also had around 70k miles and all I ever had to do was replace alternator and maybe battery which was a standard battery and I did it myself.