New Ytest
Sign out
Bimmerpost
Login
BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  
Go Back   BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-13-2019, 11:36 AM   #485
pikkagtr
Go Spurs Go
pikkagtr's Avatar
United_States
3847
Rep
2,866
Posts

 
Drives: 2022 GR Zupra
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Do you REALLY think that manufacturers just wave a magic wand and an engine just appears?

There's a reason why the B58 appears in nearly EVERY SINGLE BMW line-up. There's a reason why the INLINE 6 architecture has been in BMW's family of engines since the beginning of time. The engine is the HEART of a car. It is by far and away the most complex part of any moving vehicle that uses the internal combustion process. There's a reason why cars with bespoke engines typically cost north of 6 figures, and the first of those 6 figures don't usually start with a 1.

Anyone thinking that the new Supra is going to be a commercial success at $200,000 plus is also smoking crack.

Name me another car, in HISTORY of cars, that has had a brand new, completely designed from the ground up engine, that does not use some sort of existing architecture that the company already use.

1999 F20C
2.0L 9000rpm
11.7 compression
250 n/a HP @8600 rpm
Only available in the Honda s2000
Held the n/a specific output for 10 years
Bespoke enough for you ?
$29k



If Toyota wanted to they could
The Supra was never really what they wanted to sell
It's the nx300 and Corollas and rav4s and CHRs
Supra brings people into show rooms and they drive home in the Camry
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2019, 11:57 AM   #486
The HACK
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
The HACK's Avatar
1817
Rep
5,337
Posts

 
Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
1999 F20C
2.0L 9000rpm
11.7 compression
250 n/a HP @8600 rpm
Only available in the Honda s2000
Held the n/a specific output for 10 years
Bespoke enough for you ?
$29k



If Toyota wanted to they could
The Supra was never really what they wanted to sell
It's the nx300 and Corollas and rav4s and CHRs
Supra brings people into show rooms and they drive home in the Camry
Is that the ONLY inline 4 block Honda has ever built? Like there's no other inline 4 blocks using similar technology before it, or hasn't had an inline 4 built for a while and it's the first inline 4 with V-TECH that they designed and built?

NO.

It's a highly tuned variant of Honda's F20 architecture. Just like the S54 is a variant of the S52 Euro block, Honda didn't have to design the F20C from scratch. They had an existing architecture that evolved into he F20C. Just like BMW's E46 M3 has a "bespoke" engine in that the S54 was only used in the E46 M3 and sparingly in the Z3 M and Z4 M. The block, architecture, design, all existed long before the F20C was placed in the S2000.

Is it unique? Yeah. But if you want to claim that Toyota can just wave a magic wand and a new xJZ platform will magically appear?

I've got some marshland to sell you in Florida.
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2019, 12:14 PM   #487
NCThreePedals
First Lieutenant
227
Rep
325
Posts

 
Drives: 981 GT4/Audi Q8/F15 Diesel
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: St Pete, FL

iTrader: (0)

So did anyone actually order one? ETA when they hit the streets?
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2019, 12:36 PM   #488
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
4462
Rep
9,160
Posts

 
Drives: Smog machines
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

The S54 is in absolutely no way as bespoke as the S2000's motor. Not that this has anything to do with the Zupra.

TVR has a bespoke straight six. Seems like if they could figure that out, the Camry Brigade probably could have sorted something out too.
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2019, 01:15 PM   #489
pukicabuki
Lieutenant
176
Rep
528
Posts

 
Drives: something with 4 wheels
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Oregon

iTrader: (0)

The F20c was based on Honda's F series, which was widely used in Preludes and Accords starting in the mid 90s. It ranged from 1.8 - 2.3L. Putting a performance head and stronger internal components into and existing block is hardly bespoke.

That's essentially the same story for all of the great performance engines, short of exotics.
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2019, 01:35 PM   #490
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
4462
Rep
9,160
Posts

 
Drives: Smog machines
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pukicabuki View Post
The F20c was based on Honda's F series, which was widely used in Preludes and Accords starting in the mid 90s. It ranged from 1.8 - 2.3L. Putting a performance head and stronger internal components into and existing block is hardly bespoke.

That's essentially the same story for all of the great performance engines, short of exotics.
Based on, but only slightly. Fiber reinforced block, different liners, longitudinal mounting. It wasn't like they just used an existing block and stuck new heads on it.
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2019, 07:05 PM   #491
pukicabuki
Lieutenant
176
Rep
528
Posts

 
Drives: something with 4 wheels
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Oregon

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Based on, but only slightly. Fiber reinforced block, different liners, longitudinal mounting. It wasn't like they just used an existing block and stuck new heads on it.
You're point?

All of those things are modifying an existing, and more widely used, platform to build upon. Fiber reinforcing and liners are the same thing. FRM is a form of sleaving but it's a compromise between expensive Nikasil coating and a low cost cast iron liner. It was also used in a number of other Honda performance engines. Not exactly unique. Machining a bell housing to mount a RWD transmission isn't earth shattering either.

Creating a low production engine from scratch is a completely different undertaking both in engineering and cost. The casting process alone for the block would make it cost prohibitive for anything short of a super car.

I'm actually a huge fan of the F20c. I swapped one into an AE86 and loved it. Its a great engine, but it's far from bespoke.
Appreciate 1
Red Bread4462.00
      03-14-2019, 09:02 PM   #492
zx10guy
Brigadier General
5139
Rep
3,235
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 135i
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: DC

iTrader: (0)

Hope this isn't a sign of things to come:

http://www.thedrive.com/news/26848/s...-their-engines
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
We might not be in an agreement on Trump, but I'll be the first penis chaser here to say I'll rather take it up in the ass than to argue with you on this.
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2019, 09:30 PM   #493
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
4462
Rep
9,160
Posts

 
Drives: Smog machines
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Hope this isn't a sign of things to come:

http://www.thedrive.com/news/26848/s...-their-engines
That thing is cursed. Torque dip, lean out at high rpm, and now this.
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2019, 01:03 PM   #494
QUiKSR20
Major
QUiKSR20's Avatar
United_States
362
Rep
1,402
Posts

 
Drives: 13' F30 328i 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ

iTrader: (17)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by pukicabuki View Post
The F20c was based on Honda's F series, which was widely used in Preludes and Accords starting in the mid 90s. It ranged from 1.8 - 2.3L. Putting a performance head and stronger internal components into and existing block is hardly bespoke.

That's essentially the same story for all of the great performance engines, short of exotics.
The F Series in those cars you mentioned HAVE ZERO, NOT ONE IOTA related to the F20C.. They are similar to the H series of engines and from the 90s.

The F20C was a clean slate and is only in the S2000, they designed the K Series Motor eventually based on the F20C ( They share a ton just has traditional VTEC vs i )

K = F20 w/I-VTEC more or less ( same design ) but the F20 has no other Honda motor equivalent.. Just like Nissans VR38 which is hand built for the GTR.

People can hate Hondas but most of their engines are second to none, Even the B-Series which the K replaced is still a huge force to be reckoned with.
__________________
'13 F30 328i Sport 6MT | '18 G01 X3 xDrive30i | '95 E36 325i Vert 5MT
92 Sentra SE-R SR20DET DET Build Thread
89 E30 325is [sold & missed]

Last edited by QUiKSR20; 03-15-2019 at 01:14 PM..
Appreciate 2
      03-15-2019, 04:18 PM   #495
Nextbooost
New Member
17
Rep
21
Posts

 
Drives: former 435, Supra, TLX
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
If they didn't source an inline 6 from BMW, WHO could they possibly source an inline 6 from?

Or would the fanbase rather they put in a V-6 from their run of the mill cars?

Anyone suggesting that Toyota should have built a bespoken engine for the new Supra is smoking crack.
Build their own like Benz or freaking jaguar just did.

Lexus needs some engine choices, a new I6 would be greatly appreciated. Also their pickups and trucks could seriously use an beefy I6. Id love to see a lexus LC with a 400/500hp I6.

Id much rather a true ft1 supra with their own engine, a real toyota then the abomination they are peddling.
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2019, 08:36 PM   #496
QUiKSR20
Major
QUiKSR20's Avatar
United_States
362
Rep
1,402
Posts

 
Drives: 13' F30 328i 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ

iTrader: (17)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nextbooost View Post
Build their own like Benz or freaking jaguar just did.

Lexus needs some engine choices, a new I6 would be greatly appreciated. Also their pickups and trucks could seriously use an beefy I6. Id love to see a lexus LC with a 400/500hp I6.

Id much rather a true ft1 supra with their own engine, a real toyota then the abomination they are peddling.
Toyota also makes another Killer I6 overseas that has made even more power than the 2JZ its called the 1FZFE and its made over 1800HP DOHC 4.5 liters (2J has as well, Just another engine they make ).

So without a doubt Toyota has the skill and the know how x1000 they just cheaped out which is strange for the worlds largest auto manufacturer.

__________________
'13 F30 328i Sport 6MT | '18 G01 X3 xDrive30i | '95 E36 325i Vert 5MT
92 Sentra SE-R SR20DET DET Build Thread
89 E30 325is [sold & missed]
Appreciate 0
      03-16-2019, 08:22 PM   #497
supra93
Colonel
2474
Rep
2,334
Posts

 
Drives: Z4, E500, Supra, RX7
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: TX

iTrader: (0)



http://www.instagram.com/p/BvB5uTnlBv-/
Appreciate 0
      03-18-2019, 05:12 PM   #498
supra93
Colonel
2474
Rep
2,334
Posts

 
Drives: Z4, E500, Supra, RX7
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: TX

iTrader: (0)

All of the vents do appear to be functional on the GT4 car.




Appreciate 0
      03-18-2019, 10:28 PM   #499
RM7
Brigadier General
RM7's Avatar
2870
Rep
3,445
Posts

 
Drives: Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
All of the vents do appear to be functional on the GT4 car.
Just because they have holes in them doesn't mean they are functional/needed.
__________________
Current: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE, 2023 Colorado ZR2. Former: BMW 428i Gran Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      03-21-2019, 11:17 PM   #500
M Coupe
Private
M Coupe's Avatar
97
Rep
87
Posts

 
Drives: S54 M Coupe
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodlands, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I am going to get a red one, or a gray one. It is a decently priced BMW and I like the styling. Abomination? Heck no.
__________________
Current: 20 X3MC[]19 GT-R[]17 M2[]18 TACO[]17 WRX[]14 T4R LTD&SR5[]12 NV2500[]07 Exige S[]07 S2k[]05 M3[]03 M3[]02 MCoupe[]94 MR2T[]93 MR2 T[]92 MR2 T[]91 MR2 T[]95 SC400[]
Gone but not forgotten: 04 STI[]05 MR2 Spyder[]04 S2k[]03 IS300[]90 MR2[]
Appreciate 0
      03-22-2019, 12:41 AM   #501
Teutonic
Colonel
Teutonic's Avatar
No_Country
2706
Rep
2,350
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

I wonder what BMW got from Toyota because all I see so far is BMW. I also find stupid to give Toyota the full BMW interior. Kind of dumb...

Anyway, this one is a Coupe which is a very smart move, there are more Coupe people than Cabrio people, but BMW doesnt care, right?
In top, if this is build by and has a Toyota reliability, many will jump on it.
Appreciate 0
      03-22-2019, 12:55 PM   #502
QUiKSR20
Major
QUiKSR20's Avatar
United_States
362
Rep
1,402
Posts

 
Drives: 13' F30 328i 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ

iTrader: (17)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
I wonder what BMW got from Toyota because all I see so far is BMW. I also find stupid to give Toyota the full BMW interior. Kind of dumb...

Anyway, this one is a Coupe which is a very smart move, there are more Coupe people than Cabrio people, but BMW doesnt care, right?
In top, if this is build by and has a Toyota reliability, many will jump on it.
The reliability should be the same as the BMW that shares the same components, What BMW may have gotten is lots of Hybrid Tech where I believe Toyota is a leader ( all my opinion, I truly have no idea what they got ).
__________________
'13 F30 328i Sport 6MT | '18 G01 X3 xDrive30i | '95 E36 325i Vert 5MT
92 Sentra SE-R SR20DET DET Build Thread
89 E30 325is [sold & missed]
Appreciate 0
      03-24-2019, 03:56 AM   #503
Gangplank
Brigadier General
Gangplank's Avatar
United_States
1539
Rep
3,071
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 e82 135i n55 Sport w/ DCT
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Vero Beach, FL

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2011 135i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Hope this isn't a sign of things to come:

http://www.thedrive.com/news/26848/s...-their-engines
That’s not good. With how complex or specialized working on BMW engines can be these days it may be a sign of things to come. BMW likes to over or re-engineer things in its own ways. Simple becomes complex, so it very well may be...
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2019, 10:45 AM   #504
supra93
Colonel
2474
Rep
2,334
Posts

 
Drives: Z4, E500, Supra, RX7
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: TX

iTrader: (0)

First 2020 Toyota Supra Rolls off Assembly Line at Magna Steyr Plant in Austria



Quote:
New Toyota GR Supra Races off the Production Line

https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/27289985.html

In early March, the first production version of the all-new Toyota GR Supra rolled off the production line at the Magna Steyr, Graz Plant in Austria. But customers shouldn't get their hopes up of getting their hands on the first production model―this one is already taken!

The rights to the phantom matte gray Supra, VIN 20201―"2020" for the year, "1" marking the first production model out of the production line―with red mirror caps, matte black wheels, red interior with carbon-fiber inserts, and an engine cover signed by Toyota Motor Corp. President Akio Toyoda, was previously auctioned for charity at the 48th Annual Barrett-Jackson Auction at West World Scottsdale in Arizona. The winning bid for was for $2.1 million, and the proceeds of the first of the fifth-generation Supra went to support the American Heart Association (AHA) and the Bob Woodruff Foundation (BWF).

On the line-off of the Supra, Toyota Chief Engineer Tetsuya Tada said
"Without the support of all the various people and parties related to the Supra, this day could not have come true. Partnerships come in many forms, and our partnership with BMW has been a new experience for both of our companies. We appreciate the enthusiasm and aspiration of everyone that has helped Supra become one of the most anticipated and exciting cars coming out this year. Thanks to you, I am proud to say that Supra has turned out to be a very exciting car.

Nobi Nakamura, project chief designer for the Supra, also commented, saying
"It was exciting to see the first Supra roll off the line! Though we had our set of challenges, we believe this Supra will show the passion, thoughtfulness, and commitment that we have all had as we designed this iconic sports car and can't wait to see both old and new Supra fans all over the world on the roads soon."

To prepare for the Supra line-off, Toyota engineers traveled to the Graz Plant several times and performed quality checks together with the production members.

The Supra is slated to go on sales from around the spring of 2019 in several countries worldwide.

GR Supra development team, at Magna Steyr Graz Plant

About Magna Steyr
Magna Steyr was founded in 2001 as a subsidiary of Magna International, a major auto parts manufacturer established in 1950. The company consigns development and assembly from auto manufacturers and signed a contract with BMW concerning production consignment in 2001. Forecast for 2019 sales is $40.2 - $42.4 billion.
Appreciate 1
wdb4673.00
      03-26-2019, 02:59 PM   #505
See5
BMW Fan
See5's Avatar
United_States
449
Rep
725
Posts

 
Drives: Nothing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by QUiKSR20 View Post
Toyota also makes another Killer I6 overseas that has made even more power than the 2JZ its called the 1FZFE and its made over 1800HP DOHC 4.5 liters (2J has as well, Just another engine they make ).

So without a doubt Toyota has the skill and the know how x1000 they just cheaped out which is strange for the worlds largest auto manufacturer.
That's not cheaping out, that's just common sense from the manufacturer perspective. There's no way I'd develop an entirely new engine family just for this car unless it was modular and available for use across multiple platforms. That's ridiculous especially in a time when profit margins are steadily declining.

People forget that the 1JZ and 2JZ had multiple homes. That wouldn't be the case with a one off engine.
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2019, 06:43 PM   #506
supra93
Colonel
2474
Rep
2,334
Posts

 
Drives: Z4, E500, Supra, RX7
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: TX

iTrader: (0)

I think these look so much better than than those fugly two tone wheels.





https://www.instagram.com/p/BvexflTBtm-/
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:55 AM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST