Report: BMW M4 GTS and updated 3.0 CSL Hommage are concepts headed to Pebble Beach

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

CSL = shared frame with Toyota / Scion / Subaru ?
Tragic. In itself.

New Supra using BMW I6 engine is even more tragic.

[fuddman]

Originally Posted by N & M

For a 100th birthday, I would treat the world to something truly special.

I agree. How about a V8

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

CSL = shared frame with Toyota / Scion / Subaru ?
Tragic. In itself.

Tragic? In what ways how?
This is two companies who are at the pinnacle of engineering and lightweight material application that have pooled all available resources to develop an architecture which is mainly developed at BMW that will not only be cost effective in its application but will surprise many in what will be offered for the price.

The BMW-Toyota synergy is the envy of the German car industry.

[FogCityM3]

I don't think it matters if the CSL is the same Toyota/Supra platform. If anything, will help keep costs to a reasonable level.

Scott26, please communicate this to BMW HQ. This is what will re-invigorate the BMW brand:

CSL radical design paying homage to Batmobile and different from anything out there.
~7.0 lbs/hp or lower
Target chassis weight, handling, and Nurburgring time: Cayman GT4
White with ///M racing stripes
90-100K USD price point
No electric motors to keep costs and weight down.
Produce enough of them with Porsche 911-like availability

This will win, get BMW back on the ultimate driving machine perception map, and create a cult-car like the 3.0 CSL and M1, but commonly available. This will also improve other BMW vehicle sales. 100 years is a huge milestone and BMW needs something that makes the history books!

[IEDEI]

2-series Active Tourer CSL Hybrid!!!!!!! WOOOOO!!!

if we are super super super lucky then the Active Tourer CSL will be on a Toyota Corolla platform.

[kyleb350]

Originally Posted by Levi

New Supra using BMW I6 engine is even more tragic.

You want Toyota developing a new engine for this? They've got the 5L V8 in the RCF, but that's a bit large/heavy for this. If they wanted to get into the turbo I6 game, BMW is the leader. It's a win-win in terms of cost, reliability, and power.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

I don't think it matters if the CSL is the same Toyota/Supra platform. If anything, will help keep costs to a reasonable level.

Scott26, please communicate this to BMW HQ. This is what will re-invigorate the BMW brand:

CSL radical design paying homage to Batmobile and different from anything out there.
~7.0 lbs/hp or lower
Target chassis weight, handling, and Nurburgring time: Cayman GT4
White with ///M racing stripes
90-100K USD price point
No electric motors to keep costs and weight down.
Produce enough of them with Porsche 911-like availability

This will win, get BMW back on the ultimate driving machine perception map, and create a cult-car like the 3.0 CSL and M1, but commonly available. This will also improve other BMW vehicle sales. 100 years is a huge milestone and BMW needs something that makes the history books!

Yes plz!

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Tragic? In what ways how?
This is two companies who are at the pinnacle of engineering and lightweight material application that have pooled all available resources to develop an architecture which is mainly developed at BMW that will not only be cost effective in its application but will surprise many in what will be offered for the price.

The BMW-Toyota synergy is the envy of the German car industry.

That's your opinion. Personally I don't want a car that shares a subframe with a mass production vehicle.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by kyleb350

You want Toyota developing a new engine for this? They've got the 5L V8 in the RCF, but that's a bit large/heavy for this. If they wanted to get into the turbo I6 game, BMW is the leader. It's a win-win in terms of cost, reliability, and power.

Toyota is developing their new V6 Twin-Turbo. Already the mass produced non performance Toyota I4 Turbo has air-to-water intercooler and forged internals, something that is only found on S55.

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

That's your opinion. Personally I don't want a car that shares a subframe with a mass production vehicle.

F10 is a mass produced vehicle, Supra will not, just as LFA was not.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

That's your opinion. Personally I don't want a car that shares a subframe with a mass production vehicle.

What Toyota cars do you think this chassis is going in? A Camry? Are you under the impression that BMW doesn't build mass production vehicles? I've got news for you, outside of a very small number of vehicles, everything BMW makes is mass production. And no, the M3/4 aren't one of that "very small number". BMW make thousands of them, and well over half the car is shared with a 320i.

Time to re-evaluate, dude.

[N & M]

No complaints from me on that one, about getting a V8 in and i8...

Although I remember someone telling me it would not fit. I would settle for a sweet 6.

[N & M]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Tragic? In what ways how?
This is two companies who are at the pinnacle of engineering and lightweight material application that have pooled all available resources to develop an architecture which is mainly developed at BMW that will not only be cost effective in its application but will surprise many in what will be offered for the price.

The BMW-Toyota synergy is the envy of the German car industry.

Yes, and yes, but I worry that Toyota also uses the tech it gains from BMW then ditches BMW in the future after it gets the Kudos and street cred.

In the end all of us grumble that BMW has no answer to AMG GT and Mercedes would have probably never gotten to that stage to bring such a car to the market if it did not collaborate with the likes of Aston Martin and Renault Nissan.

[gearboxtrouble]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

You don't like the CSL?
Its our template for the harder edge exclusive bookend of BMW M.

More focused performance cars but with the latest progressive innovation such as further lightweight materials ,technology and whisper it eDrive features including eBoost.

You will know a CSL because it will be radically different with special Aeropacket and performance equipment.

Its a revival of what CSL stood for in the past Motorsport with progressive innovation but today for a very progressive future.

All of that sounds great. Its just a shame the front fascia makes it look like it has rabies. Surely a normal front grille would work better. I know looks are subjective but I'm pretty sure the general reaction to the front end styling has been pretty similar.

[fuddman]

Originally Posted by aajami

Much better.

FWIW, here is an even better look at what came from, possibly, the same set of drawings. Nice looking car, for sure, despite the color. Love those Y spoke wheels.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

That's your opinion. Personally I don't want a car that shares a subframe with a mass production vehicle.

Again the enthusiast paranoia sets in. This is a jointly developed architecture based upon BMWs new modular matrix CLAR. It is developed intentionally for Sports cars, the difference here is that both companies have pooled resources to provide an exciting mix of lightweight material technology. Both BMW and Toyota are proficient in the manufacturing of CFRP to a high degree.
The car will be advanced like an i8 and again cost less than you would expect it to.

We will NOT see it in a Camry or any other Toyota. The only other road car a joint BMW-Toyota platform will be shared with is a MINI.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by N & M

Yes, and yes, but I worry that Toyota also uses the tech it gains from BMW then ditches BMW in the future after it gets the Kudos and street cred.

In the end all of us grumble that BMW has no answer to AMG GT and Mercedes would have probably never gotten to that stage to bring such a car to the market if it did not collaborate with the likes of Aston Martin and Renault Nissan.

Aston Martin does not bring anything to Mercedes, the other way round, and Renault Nissan are not involved in any way in what AMG does. LOL

And Toyota does not "ditch", BMW would. Toyota does not need cred among the Toyota crowd (MR2, Supra, LFA, GT86 to name these few). Toyota has more partnerships than any other car company in the world, and they don't "ditch2, they collaborate. Many of Toyota's cars are rebadges, it is a business, not some boy contest.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by gearboxtrouble

All of that sounds great. Its just a shame the front fascia makes it look like it has rabies. Surely a normal front grille would work better. I know looks are subjective but I'm pretty sure the general reaction to the front end styling has been pretty similar.

Ha ha

[N & M]

Originally Posted by Levi

Aston Martin does not bring anything to Mercedes, the other way round, and Renault Nissan are not involved in any way in what AMG does. LOL

And Toyota does not "ditch", BMW would. Toyota does not need cred among the Toyota crowd (MR2, Supra, LFA, GT86 to name these few). Toyota has more partnerships than any other car company in the world, and they don't "ditch2, they collaborate. Many of Toyota's cars are rebadges, it is a business, not some boy contest.

Aston adds volume to the high cost low volume engine and AMG drivetrain developments. In a affect it makes it cheaper and easier for Mercedes to spread the cost and develop more.

Toyota can gain from BMW valuable insight into what makes its engines (including diesels) and chassis special and can walk away from the partnership in the future whith a new benefit beyond cost savings. With Lexus this could be a direct threat. LOL on that please.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by N & M

Aston adds volume to the high cost low volume engine and AMG drivetrain developments. In a affect it makes it cheaper and easier for Mercedes to spread the cost and develop more.

Toyota can gain from BMW valuable insight into what makes its engines (including diesels) and chassis special and can walk away from the partnership in the future whith a new benefit beyond cost savings. With Lexus this could be a direct threat. LOL on that please.

First Toyota already get BMW diesel engine for the European market, and with exception of Toyota's I4 turbo and V8 turbo diesel engines for its 4x4, it Toyota is not interested in diesel engines for its smaller cars, one of the reason Toyota fails in Europe and does not even seem to want to improve that other than by "just swaping" in BMW diesel engines.

Then, SLR, SLS and AMG GT are already on the road, the new Aston Martin DB9 replacement is only in the works. I do not see how Mercedes/AMG profits from that, in order to build its sports/supercars.

BMW-Toyota platforms are only two: the sportscar (Supra/Z5 and maybe other but unlikely) and the city car (iQ/Rocketman). As for the rest, Toyota does not have to learn "handling", "engines" or "chassis" from BMW. Toyota can do it themselves. Just, as Toyota is a greedy business (as BMW) they want to reduce costs. As for the other models, of Toyota/Lexus, they will use a new modular RWD platform starting with the new LS, just as BMW started with their new one on the 7 Series.

[Aloosh]

Will all 2016 production M3's and M4's have the water injection system?

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Aloosh

Will all 2016 production M3's and M4's have the water injection system?

Nothing has been formally announced, but it is speculated that they will not due to concerns over diluting the value of the GTS.

[N & M]

Originally Posted by Levi

First Toyota already get BMW diesel engine for the European market, and with exception of Toyota's I4 turbo and V8 turbo diesel engines for its 4x4, it Toyota is not interested in diesel engines for its smaller cars, one of the reason Toyota fails in Europe and does not even seem to want to improve that other than by "just swaping" in BMW diesel engines.

Then, SLR, SLS and AMG GT are already on the road, the new Aston Martin DB9 replacement is only in the works. I do not see how Mercedes/AMG profits from that, in order to build its sports/supercars.

BMW-Toyota platforms are only two: the sportscar (Supra/Z5 and maybe other but unlikely) and the city car (iQ/Rocketman). As for the rest, Toyota does not have to learn "handling", "engines" or "chassis" from BMW. Toyota can do it themselves. Just, as Toyota is a greedy business (as BMW) they want to reduce costs. As for the other models, of Toyota/Lexus, they will use a new modular RWD platform starting with the new LS, just as BMW started with their new one on the 7 Series.

It does not matter what is on the road or developed already in Mercedes case as a developmental cost can be recouped when a manufacturer sells engines and other tech it to another brand.

Moreover the more you spread your tech across platforms and brands the better economies of scale you produce. But you already know that because you know everything.

Now regarding Toyota and BMW sharing know-how and tech there is always the inherent fear that one will get more out of the deal than the other.

As part of and addition to the 2 projects you mentioned rumours and statements points point to Toyota collaborating with BWW on engines and battery and chassis tech.