Car and Driver Instrumented test: 2015 BMW M3

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by trinim3

Can't risk setting the competition on fire by having the GT3 there

This.

Honestly i wouldn't be surprised of the m4 pulled it out with that group. The ford would probably win if it was rear wheel drive. Should be an interesting read since no obvious stand out.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

That sucks no GT3. Could have been a 3-peat for Porsche. Maybe the Turbo S will pull out the win.

I'm betting the Z28 will surprise a lot of people.. it won't win but it will do very well. It's pretty much a track car only

[rubber_ducky]

Originally Posted by gthal

Good points... one thing I might suggest is that a "decent/average" driver still needs at least MDM. I have hundreds of track hours and run with the group just below the instructors at my track and I would not drive this car on public roads without DSC on... MDM, yes... DSC off, no. People very much overestimate their ability and this car has so much torque it will bite everyone but the more experienced driver...

Understatement of the century IMO

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by gthal

I'm betting the Z28 will surprise a lot of people.. it won't win but it will do very well. It's pretty much a track car only

Yea I think the Z28 will win fare very well. I don't like the car at all but I do have to respect that it is basically a race car.

[WWM3]

I enjoyed reading a review of a MT M3/4 for once instead of DCT.

I realize most will buy DCT and it certainly has it's advantages, but I'm happy to read the comments on the manual. It's what I would buy.

[JoeFromPA]

MDM is perfect for me.

I spun my e39 m5 backwards off the road when I went DSC off, on winter tires, thinking to do a little light sideways action on a wet road with my low traction tires. No real damage was done.

I was prepared. I was expecting the slide. I was expecting the weight transfer. But I wasn't expecting the front to do what it did AND the rear to grab (on/off in microseconds) enough to basically pendulum me.

It was stupid. Amateur. I was purely lucky. And I learned DSC off anyway outside of an empty parking lot with 1000 feet run-off is stupid for me right now.

So I'm all about MDM mode and not afraid to admit it.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by gthal

I'm betting the Z28 will surprise a lot of people.. it won't win but it will do very well. It's pretty much a track car only

Agreed. I bet it'll be one of the fastest around the track. But I dont know that it'll win best "drivers" car due to it's basically a race car in a camero body. I'd think a Z51 Vette would actually be better suited for best drivers car while being able to put down quick laps.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

MDM is perfect for me.

I spun my e39 m5 backwards off the road when I went DSC off, on winter tires, thinking to do a little light sideways action on a wet road with my low traction tires. No real damage was done.

I was prepared. I was expecting the slide. I was expecting the weight transfer. But I wasn't expecting the front to do what it did AND the rear to grab (on/off in microseconds) enough to basically pendulum me.

It was stupid. Amateur. I was purely lucky. And I learned DSC off anyway outside of an empty parking lot with 1000 feet run-off is stupid for me right now.

So I'm all about MDM mode and not afraid to admit it.

You should get the Euro MDM coding. It definitely allows for more slip than the US version.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

C&D usually does a good job at extracting maximum acceleration numbers, so I guess there's no reason to doubt their data, but compared to their E9x 6MT data, I would have thought there would have been a bigger difference.



From their test of a E90 M3 with a 6MT, they achieved:

E90 M3 6MT:
0-60 4.1
0-100 9.8
0-150 24.9
and 12.6@113mph

Their data from the F80 M3 6MT is:
0-60 4.1
0-100 9.2
0-150 23.3
and 12.4@116mph

Well, maybe that makes sense. I would have thought the F80 would be more than just 2/10ths quicker in the 1/4, but it is trapping 3mph more (which I would have thought would have been higher too).

I know this test I am posting is a E92 M3 not the E90 but it did 0-150 in 23.9.

Here is the article..

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...-amg-jan12.pdf

[duk]

85k? no thanks

[M3OW]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

I know this test I am posting is a E92 M3 not the E90 but it did 0-150 in 23.9.

Here is the article..

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...-amg-jan12.pdf

That c63 did it in under 20 second. Huge difference for a much heavier car.

[ixse]

go watch the clip in vs. section of e9x roll racing m4. go see if its "only" 0.2 sec difference.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by M3OW

That c63 did it in under 20 second. Huge difference for a much heavier car.

Almost all of the C63 acceleration times were quicker, which was really amazing since it had a 2.85 rear end compared to a 3.85 on the M3.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

Almost all of the C63 acceleration times were quicker, which was really amazing since it had a 2.85 rear end compared to a 3.85 on the M3.

The final drive ratio is totally irrelevant when comparing different cars with different engines and transmission ratios...

[e39>all]

Only .2 air craft carrier lengths ahead

[MrPrena]

Well said. I agree with Linear power band comment on race cars.
Daily driver on the regular road may prefer different, because driver may not go upto optimal RPM range all the time.
This is why Acura/Honda NSX feels "slower" than vehicles like SupraTT, because of change in acceration over change in time called jerk. m/s^3

How come Car1 and Car2 has a same 0-60 time and same 1/4 mile (acceleration), but feels faster? Because of change in acceleration relative to change in time upto certain rpm is faster/slower. Linear curve power band vehicles have more consistent acceleration. Assuming both vehicle has a same 1/4mi, faster "feeling cars" would have a faster rate of acceleration upto certain RPM , then it may have slower rate of acceleration on certain RPM.

Just look at the power band on F1 V8/v10 cars. They are linear.

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Someone mentioned this earlier, but there is chassis feel and there is steering feel. Chassis feel is the chassis responding to the road and throttle inputs (most prevalent in throttle oversteer). A significant weakness IMO in the E90 is these rubber bushings in the subframe. Makes for a nice ride, but with age they get squirmy and the rear end does not respond immediately to throttle inputs or squirms around too much.

With the hydraulic steering physically linking the wheels to the steering wheel, however, you can feel the road and therefore the limits of adhesion on the front wheels and this is extremely important as on a front heavy car (50/50 but still front heavy as is a sedan compared to mid engine cars) you can develop faster lap times by breaking late and deep into a turn and can enter the turn with more speed. To me, feeling the road is crucial for this aspect of driving fast.

The other part of driving fast is being extremely smooth and having a nice linear throttle application. Coming out of a turn, while a bolted subframe will definitely help you steer out of turn better, too much torque, or a step in the torque/power band can be really problematic. What's worse in the F80 is that is sounds like you have to be in TC off to extract the best feel out of the car. For the vast majority of track drivers (not autocross), smooth=fast. If the race drivers are saying that the torque is very hard to handle coming out of turns, I feel that my worry in encountering the F80 on the track isn't going to be is it going to be faster, but is it going to compromise the safety of the rest of the run group when a less experienced driver jams the throttle coming out of a turn with T/C off?. I have the feeling it may be harder and more challenging to drive the F80 faster for most amateur drivers, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you like challenges. The beauty of the E90 is that you can keep the car in MDM and still generate a pretty fast lap as the throttle is silky smooth, power can easily be controlled due to to the linear powerband and significant engine breaking due to short gearing. You'll give up a little bit in trying to steer with the throttle coming out of turns in MDM (doesn't allow you to do it enough), but you can still be very fast and and extremely safe driving smoothly.

I also don't get the E90 doesn't have enough torque for the street. The gearing is shorter, therefore the drivetrain and final drive are making up for the lack of engine torque in lower revs, in the F80 vs E90 its about 25%-28& less depending on the gar, not insubstantial (on a very powerful car) but already I'm having problems keeping torque down on less than high quality roads, especially in urban areas. Also, you can pass most cars at a brisk pace (unless they're gunning it) by shifting at 4k-5k rpm. People who say that they're having trouble passing minivans when torque to the wheels and through the drivetrain is at 5,300 ft lbs at 3,900 rpm, more than sufficient to pass with short shifting, I have no idea what they're talking about. I have 335 loaners all the time and I in no way feel that car has any worse torque on the road than an E90 M3.

[adc]

Originally Posted by grant

As good as some Porsches, better than a few, but not nearly as good as the best Porsches (best with respect to steering feel).

Agreed.

I would rate the E36 steering feel as slightly worse than a 2000 Boxster base, and better than any contemporary BMW. Strangely, I liked the steering feel on the E46 ZHP better than the E36 M3.

The E90 M3 is disadvantaged significantly because it has servotronic as standard, so at low speeds it feels very disconnected. It's those first few miles that can form someone's opinion, because as you pick up some speed and corner loads, it becomes much better. Add some camber and a track alignment, and it's significantly better the stock.

Yet still not in the same league as my ex Boxster.

[grant]

Originally Posted by adc

I would rate the E36 steering feel as slightly worse than a 2000 Boxster base, and better than any contemporary BMW.

That is my experience also.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by adc

Agreed.

I would rate the E36 steering feel as slightly worse than a 2000 Boxster base, and better than any contemporary BMW. Strangely, I liked the steering feel on the E46 ZHP better than the E36 M3.

The E90 M3 is disadvantaged significantly because it has servotronic as standard, so at low speeds it feels very disconnected. It's those first few miles that can form someone's opinion, because as you pick up some speed and corner loads, it becomes much better. Add some camber and a track alignment, and it's significantly better the stock.

Yet still not in the same league as my ex Boxster.

servotronic is AWFUL

I completely agree and was the reason I didn't love the e9x steering. I couldn't stand how light it was at lower speeds and the variable assist was just confusing when driving. you never knew exactly what you were going to get

I HOPE that the f8x sport / sport plus has less of a variable assist component, because to me its the worst thing that can be done to any steering system, and is far more detrimental than EPS vs HPS

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

servotronic is AWFUL

I completely agree and was the reason I didn't love the e9x steering. I couldn't stand how light it was at lower speeds and the variable assist was just confusing when driving. you never knew exactly what you were going to get

I HOPE that the f8x sport / sport plus has less of a variable assist component, because to me its the worst thing that can be done to any steering system, and is far more detrimental than EPS vs HPS

Did you ever drive an E9x w/ the servotronic tune? I have a new tune including it from Evolve but haven't had a chance to flash my car. Hoping it helps.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Did you ever drive an E9x w/ the servotronic tune? I have a new tune including it from Evolve but haven't had a chance to flash my car. Hoping it helps.

I had evolve do it on my e92 and it was an ok adjustment, but to me, it wasn't hugely noticeable. I still found it too light at low speeds. BUT, that was like a year and a half ago, so maybe the current calibration is better. To be honest, I find light steering very frustrating because to me it is harder to stay smooth with steering inputs with overly light steering. specifically with variable assist that can really be weird on turn in as sometimes its light, sometimes its heavier etc

on track it didn't bother me too much, but it was a little bothersome because of the variable ratio. on the street it was much more annoying.

I have absolutely no idea why anyone thinks this belongs in a performance car (and its in many of them now, including the new m3/4). Thankfully the 991 can be optioned without it, and that's one reason I loved the 991s steering.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by adc

Strangely, I liked the steering feel on the E46 ZHP better than the E36 M3.

Definitely agree here. My daughter has a ZHP with GC coilovers, H&R sway bars, 8.5"/255 square PSS, etc, basically setup as an STX-class car, and it is a blast to drive. Outstanding steering feedback, very accurate even at low speeds. I've co-driven the car with her at a lot of autox events over the years and always enjoy driving that car.