Car and Driver Instrumented test: 2015 BMW M3

[karussell]

how can a car have sublime handling but bland steering? uh you kinda need to steer the car accurately in order to have it handle worth a damn. its step one.

[E92LNGCGY]

I disagree with the steering comment. It is fantastic in my opinion.

[SF848]

Originally Posted by karussell

how can a car have sublime handling but bland steering? uh you kinda need to steer the car accurately in order to have it handle worth a damn. its step one.

Lol very true

[jeremyr4]

I have 2 quick comments regarding the article, the first of which no one has mentioned yet:

1) They should have used the DCT for their test. Not only because it's quicker but because it provides a better comparison to most cars these days (manual is unfortunately on its way out). It also clearly makes for a different feel and I would be curious to see if they like it. When you consider that the majority of sales will be DCT they really should have tested a DCT.
2) I haven't yet tried the F8x so I can't comment on the steering feel. But the last M3 that had decent steering feel was the E46 IMO. I still miss the steering on feel on that car. Granted the suspension was really firm but I could feel the car running over a quarter. My current E93, as much as I love a lot about the car (great engine, amazing sound with the OEM exhaust mod, fast, etc), doesn't compare to the E46 when it comes to steering feel. I realize that steering feel is subjective but, having read hundreds of threads, I'm guessing the majority would agree with me. Here's to hoping the F8x is an improvement over the E9x (judging from most articles it sounds like it is).

[solstice]

Originally Posted by karussell

how can a car have sublime handling but bland steering? uh you kinda need to steer the car accurately in order to have it handle worth a damn. its step one.

Since your's is a racer's view. My guess is that for you the steering is just a tool to drive the car as fast as possible. If it doesn't interfere and assist in that purpose it's great. Fast is fun in itself but there are other aspects as to which extent you feel connected to the car at all time and speeds and how "alive" the car feel in your hands where steering feedback serve more purposes than just assisting in minimum lap times or pull never ending drifts.

[Candide13]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

E90 M3 6MT:
0-60 4.1
0-100 9.8
0-150 24.9
and 12.6@113mph

Their data from the F80 M3 6MT is:
0-60 4.1
0-100 9.2
0-150 23.3
and 12.4@116mph

Well, maybe that makes sense. I would have thought the F80 would be more than just 2/10ths quicker in the 1/4, but it is trapping 3mph more (which I would have thought would have been higher too).

Surprising numbers, I agree. There can be little doubt that the F8x is significantly faster in day to day driving, especially in a city: any E9x driver knows the feeling of getting wasted off the line by people movers, and soccer moms, and white vans and...

This always happens unless you go past 4000-5000rpm, when the game changes and the engine comes alive.

I think every new generation of M3s breeds a new talent in driving, and the current crop will take some time to figure out how to use the massive low-rev torque. It's an exciting time!

[M3OW]

Originally Posted by Candide13

Surprising numbers, I agree. There can be little doubt that the F8x is significantly faster in day to day driving, especially in a city: any E9x driver knows the feeling of getting wasted off the line by people movers, and soccer moms, and white vans and...

This always happens unless you go past 4000-5000rpm, when the game changes and the engine comes alive.

I think every new generation of M3s breeds a new talent in driving, and the current crop will take some time to figure out how to use the massive low-rev torque. It's an exciting time!

If you get passed by any sort of van in an e9x than it's most likely you and not the car. This is much less of an issue when ur in a dct equipped e9x, I had no problems passing any car I wanted with no effort, just a quick flick of the paddle and and stab of the throttle. No complaints whatsoever with a dct m3.

My 2008 manual m3 was not as effective but I never found my self in a situation where I felt the car was underpowered especially when your talking about SUVs and vans.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by solstice

Since your's is a racer's view. My guess is that for you the steering is just a tool to drive the car as fast as possible. If it doesn't interfere and assist in that purpose it's great. Fast is fun in itself but there are other aspects as to which extent you feel connected to the car at all time and speeds and how "alive" the car feel in your hands where steering feedback serve more purposes than just assisting in minimum lap times or pull never ending drifts.

I think this is backwards. "Feel" and "connection"... whatever those things mean to you... are more important on a track when racing for fast times. The more "alive" the car feels, the faster you can drive it IMO. You need to feel what the car is doing to react to it. Butt, hands and feet connection with the car is incredibly important on a track. If you can't feel connected, you can't drive fast IMO. Numb cars are slower cars as you can never really feel the limit of the car and keep it there. That's why Chris, in his review, talks about the front axle and the solid rear axle and how "connected" that makes you feel to the car and how balanced the car is. That connection means predictability and communication with the car and the driver being faster.

The same applies to the steering... for racers like Karussell and others who push the car on a track, they would complain MORE about steering if it were less precise, predictable, connected, etc (I hate using those terms as they are defined differently for everyone). For street driving, steering "feel" and "connection" is far less relevant in actual fact IMO. My view is that people like to talk about steering... it's trendy to do so these days with almost everyone moving from hydraulic... but the reality is that what everyone is really talking about something specific to their view of the car and it is very subjective. What you might call "connected steering" might be different than how I view it and what it means to me.

For me, it is about accuracy and predictability. I don't need to feel a bump through the steering wheel to feel "connected". I need to feel what the front axle is doing and how it is reacting to my steering input and know that I can precisely adjust what I feel the car is doing with my foot (rear axle) and steering wheel. In my view, the F8X is very predictable, precise and connected. I thought the C7 had very good steering "feel" and "connection" and I feel the same way about the F8X.

While I'm on the topic, my opinion is that one reason some people say the F8X has less steering feel/connection is because the car grips so well in the front. I believe some are confusing not being able to feel the limit of traction in the front axle as lack of steering feel but, in reality, that is simply because the limit is so high. In cars that push the front (understeer), your sense of the car's limits is easier to find... the C63 was like this to me, older Porsche's too. On the F8X (and C7), the traction limit of the front axle is SO high it is hard to find it in street driving and you rarely "feel" it. That's another reason, IMO, why track drivers like Karussell would have a different view as they actually experience the limit of front traction regularly and know the feeling of the steering in that situation where those who are only pushing the cars on the street rarely get to the limit of the car which is notably higher than the previous car. Maybe I'm all wet on this but it's my theory

[solstice]

Originally Posted by gthal

I think this is backwards. "Feel" and "connection"... whatever those things mean to you... are more important on a track when racing for fast times. The more "alive" the car feels, the faster you can drive it IMO. You need to feel what the car is doing to react to it. Butt, hands and feet connection with the car is incredibly important on a track. If you can't feel connected, you can't drive fast IMO. Numb cars are slower cars as you can never really feel the limit of the car and keep it there. That's why Chris, in his review, talks about the front axle and the solid rear axle and how "connected" that makes you feel to the car and how balanced the car is. That connection means predictability and communication with the car and the driver being faster.

The same applies to the steering... for racers like Karussell and others who push the car on a track, they would complain MORE about steering if it were less precise, predictable, connected, etc (I hate using those terms as they are defined differently for everyone). For street driving, steering "feel" and "connection" is far less relevant in actual fact IMO. My view is that people like to talk about steering... it's trendy to do so these days with almost everyone moving from hydraulic... but the reality is that what everyone is really talking about something specific to their view of the car and it is very subjective. What you might call "connected steering" might be different than how I view it and what it means to me.

For me, it is about accuracy and predictability. I don't need to feel a bump through the steering wheel to feel "connected". I need to feel what the front axle is doing and how it is reacting to my steering input and know that I can precisely adjust what I feel the car is doing with my foot (rear axle) and steering wheel. In my view, the F8X is very predictable, precise and connected. I thought the C7 had very good steering "feel" and "connection" and I feel the same way about the F8X.

While I'm on the topic, my opinion is that one reason some people say the F8X has less steering feel/connection is because the car grips so well in the front. I believe some are confusing not being able to feel the limit of traction in the front axle as lack of steering feel but, in reality, that is simply because the limit is so high. In cars that push the front (understeer), your sense of the car's limits is easier to find... the C63 was like this to me, older Porsche's too. On the F8X (and C7), the traction limit of the front axle is SO high it is hard to find it in street driving and you rarely "feel" it. That's another reason, IMO, why track drivers like Karussell would have a different view as they actually experience the limit of front traction regularly and know the feeling of the steering in that situation where those who are only pushing the cars on the street rarely get to the limit of the car which is notably higher than the previous car. Maybe I'm all wet on this but it's my theory

I'm sure it differs from person to person but for me precision, predictability and responsiveness is much more important than feedback when racing. A low effort not fatigue steering is also preferable for longer sessions. On the street I don't race, I just want the car be highly communicative to get the connected feel. The F80 is pretty numb in the steering during normal driving, very much more so than the E90 IMO. On the limits it's communicative enough but that's not really relevant for day to day driving which is what my F80 is to be used for.

I'm not alone in thinking feel is less important in racing. Here's a quote from an F1 driver who was very fast in the wet where you might think steering feel is all important.

"When you drive a car, either you manage it and feel it with the grip of the car, or, like me, you fix it on visual speed. If you do it through the grip, you lose it very quickly - because when the track changes, you can have scares. I do it visually, so if I am going too fast I fight to get the car back, but I do not do it by feeling the grip."

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...BRpy4TKVVqX.99

[gthal]

Originally Posted by solstice

I'm sure it differs from person to person but for me precision, predictability and responsiveness is much more important than feedback when racing. A low effort not fatigue steering is also preferable for longer sessions. On the street I don't race, I just want the car be highly communicative to get the connected feel. The F80 is pretty numb in the steering during normal driving, very much more so than the E90 IMO. On the limits it's communicative enough but that's not really relevant for day to day driving which is what my F80 is to be used for.

I'm not alone in thinking feel is less important in racing. Here's a quote from an F1 driver who was very fast in the wet where you might think steering feel is all important.

"When you drive a car, either you manage it and feel it with the grip of the car, or, like me, you fix it on visual speed. If you do it through the grip, you lose it very quickly - because when the track changes, you can have scares. I do it visually, so if I am going too fast I fight to get the car back, but I do not do it by feeling the grip."

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...BRpy4TKVVqX.99

The bolded portion I don't think I agree with . I would never say the steering feels "numb". The F8X steering is no more "numb" than the C63, E92 or C7 IMO. It is more precise than some but no more "numb" but, as we have both said, steering feel is subjective

[Candide13]

Originally Posted by M3OW

If you get passed by any sort of van in an e9x than it's most likely you and not the car. This is much less of an issue when ur in a dct equipped e9x, I had no problems passing any car I wanted with no effort, just a quick flick of the paddle and and stab of the throttle. No complaints whatsoever with a dct m3.

My 2008 manual m3 was not as effective but I never found my self in a situation where I felt the car was underpowered especially when your talking about SUVs and vans.

Of course you can overtake almost anything you like, what I meant is it requires getting on it either rev-wise or throttle wise. So it feels like you need to push the car at low revs, whereas it starts running with you at high revs. My guess with the F80 is that it will feel effortless in any low speed situation and that must be a big difference to the E90.

[FogCityM3]

Someone mentioned this earlier, but there is chassis feel and there is steering feel. Chassis feel is the chassis responding to the road and throttle inputs (most prevalent in throttle oversteer). A significant weakness IMO in the E90 is these rubber bushings in the subframe. Makes for a nice ride, but with age they get squirmy and the rear end does not respond immediately to throttle inputs or squirms around too much.

With the hydraulic steering physically linking the wheels to the steering wheel, however, you can feel the road and therefore the limits of adhesion on the front wheels and this is extremely important as on a front heavy car (50/50 but still front heavy as is a sedan compared to mid engine cars) you can develop faster lap times by breaking late and deep into a turn and can enter the turn with more speed. To me, feeling the road is crucial for this aspect of driving fast.

The other part of driving fast is being extremely smooth and having a nice linear throttle application. Coming out of a turn, while a bolted subframe will definitely help you steer out of turn better, too much torque, or a step in the torque/power band can be really problematic. What's worse in the F80 is that is sounds like you have to be in TC off to extract the best feel out of the car. For the vast majority of track drivers (not autocross), smooth=fast. If the race drivers are saying that the torque is very hard to handle coming out of turns, I feel that my worry in encountering the F80 on the track isn't going to be is it going to be faster, but is it going to compromise the safety of the rest of the run group when a less experienced driver jams the throttle coming out of a turn with T/C off?. I have the feeling it may be harder and more challenging to drive the F80 faster for most amateur drivers, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you like challenges. The beauty of the E90 is that you can keep the car in MDM and still generate a pretty fast lap as the throttle is silky smooth, power can easily be controlled due to to the linear powerband and significant engine breaking due to short gearing. You'll give up a little bit in trying to steer with the throttle coming out of turns in MDM (doesn't allow you to do it enough), but you can still be very fast and and extremely safe driving smoothly.

I also don't get the E90 doesn't have enough torque for the street. The gearing is shorter, therefore the drivetrain and final drive are making up for the lack of engine torque in lower revs, in the F80 vs E90 its about 25%-28& less depending on the gar, not insubstantial (on a very powerful car) but already I'm having problems keeping torque down on less than high quality roads, especially in urban areas. Also, you can pass most cars at a brisk pace (unless they're gunning it) by shifting at 4k-5k rpm. People who say that they're having trouble passing minivans when torque to the wheels and through the drivetrain is at 5,300 ft lbs at 3,900 rpm, more than sufficient to pass with short shifting, I have no idea what they're talking about. I have 335 loaners all the time and I in no way feel that car has any worse torque on the road than an E90 M3.

[jeff4598]

I expect that with electronic(read digitally controlled) steering, aftermarket tuners will be able to help a LOT. My e90 has the simple Benvo mod whereby the transition from soft to firm steering effort is moved down from ~29 to~14 mph and the feel of the car is utterly transformed around town.

The steering on the Porsche GT3 is reported to be far superior to that on the standard 911. Certainly stiffer components are part of this but I suspect reprograming of the steering is key.

[M4TW]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Someone mentioned this earlier, but there is chassis feel and there is steering feel. Chassis feel is the chassis responding to the road and throttle inputs (most prevalent in throttle oversteer). A significant weakness IMO in the E90 is these rubber bushings in the subframe. Makes for a nice ride, but with age they get squirmy and the rear end does not respond immediately to throttle inputs or squirms around too much.

I think this is illuminating.

Driving these cars perhaps requires more ass sensitization to pick up the additional information being communicated from the rear wheels to make up for less information being communicated through one's hands about the fronts.

Anyway, anyone who goes to an extreme and calls the steering feel "numb" is just being a drama queen. It is a long way from that. A long long way.

The true test will come when I drive my M4 in the winter where the road surface is ever changing and steering feedback is needed to determine whether a driving maneuver can be attempted normally, gingerly, or not at all.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by AustinYellowMakesMeHard

There's should be a ring "stig" , one man that knows the track better than the back his hand with balls of steel that every manufacturer must use for their official ring time.

Horst von Saurma.

[Hoopumpers]

Originally Posted by RickMonet

The comments on the 6MT are good to hear:

"Theres nothing vague, sloppy, or chintzy about the shifters action. Rowing your own gears is as gratifying as an honest par-five eagle"

Meh - a little over dramatic. I agree shifter feel is good. Pedal feel is lousy (which they do gently mention in the article). I wasn't impressed with the MT in this car.

[Black Gold]

I don't agree with most of what fog city says (what's new?), and IMO it's overdramatic, especial for someone who hasn't driven the car to make some of those assertions. Mdm is a significant limitation for any decent / average driver . And the reason the e92 may be "easier" to drive is that it has a lot less power, not that it has better throttle response. More powerful rwd cars are always a little trickier to drive all things being equal. Gotta be careful on the throttle coming out of corners. But that's something that can be easily learned.

But, eps is also physically linked to the wheels / suspension. The only difference is a hydraulic vs electromechanical motor

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

And the reason the e92 may be "easier" to drive is that it has a lot less power, not that it has better throttle response.

I guess "a lot less power" these days means similar 0-60 times and 0.2 seconds difference in the 1/4 mile?

[Audio Fan]

Originally Posted by Candide13

Of course you can overtake almost anything you like, what I meant is it requires getting on it either rev-wise or throttle wise. So it feels like you need to push the car at low revs, whereas it starts running with you at high revs. My guess with the F80 is that it will feel effortless in any low speed situation and that must be a big difference to the E90.

I always needed to drop two or three gears for the real kick in the E92 M3. So, let's call it two or three clicks.

The M4 just feels much more powerful and responsive. It's the biggest increase in power feel of any new generation by far. With the E92, you definitely wanted more power. With the M4, you wonder why you need more power. As nice as the E92 is, the M4 feels like a whole new ball game. You feel like you got your hands full - of power - in a good way. It feels like someone dropped an AMG engine in an M3, which is what I always hoped would happen. Is this what you guys who have had the last two gens feel?

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

I guess "a lot less power" these days means similar 0-60 times and 0.2 seconds difference in the 1/4 mile?

0-60 is traction limited as is quarter mile

Check the 0-100 and trap speeds. Multiple dct cars tested under 9 seconds 0-100. Many e92 have been over 10 seconds.

So yes, significantly faster, despite your one outlier test on a manual car with likely traction problems. Still a .6 second difference in 0-100 in that test

[M3OW]

Originally Posted by Candide13

Of course you can overtake almost anything you like, what I meant is it requires getting on it either rev-wise or throttle wise. So it feels like you need to push the car at low revs, whereas it starts running with you at high revs. My guess with the F80 is that it will feel effortless in any low speed situation and that must be a big difference to the E90.

Gotchya

I think the e9x dct was geared in a way that it was never an issue for me. It was unlike any other car I had owned or driven. Even at low revs the car would move fine but the f8x is a different car altogether. Nothing very special about its engine/hearing configuration.

[FogCityM3]

Disagree with me, or disagreeable in general?

Except for coming out of corners to induce throttle oversteer to help steer the rear end, there is little reason for MDM to intervene if you're driving properly and smooth. This comes from my own experience and numerous instructors (who I always use, whatever my run group), including those at the M school. Just pick up a good racing book, they all say the same thing. Smooth = fast, linear power curves are better/easier to control, period. Why? because it's easier to drive fast. Every race driver says it and the perfect engine, as stated by Dinan himself is a perfectly linear power curve and flat as a table torque curve.

I will end up trying the F80 on the track and will judge for myself, I have already tried the 1M and the punchiness of the torque is a problem in being smooth for me and it induces too abrupt throttle oversteer. I suspect that if experts are saying the F80 is tricky to control for them, it will be likely for me as well. In the E90 it is pretty much perfect, ie the exact amount that you need..maybe could use a little more (can be corrected with FBO) but even stock is more than made up for the ability to use engine breaking and precisely control the throttle (linear throttle application, not response, but having good response is good too). For a track like Laguna Seca, it's pretty much perfect.

A lot of people don't know how to drive properly on the track or have not gotten the type of instruction needed to be fast, which includes being extremely smooth with the throttle, letting engine doing some breaking, using momentum of the car minimizing abrupt movements, trail braking into turns, and using the throttle to steer in and out of turns in a silky smooth fashion. I can't tell you how many times I see people punch the throttle, brake extremely heavily, make abrupt steering inputs, fail to use subtle weight transfer techniques and slide around. Guess what? the people that do this get overtaken by much less powerful cars. MDM on the E90 is not a huge restriction if you know how to drive smooth and fast, with the exception I mentioned above, but not sure how much that would really shave from an amateur's lap time. For me personally I prefer the extra margin of safety and keep MDM on (and euro MDM helps a little) and what I lose (vs other cars) by not being able to fully steer through the throttle, I make up for it in smoothness, momentum, braking deeper into the zone, trail braking.

Ask any of the guys who run these cars on the N-ring. The E90 is easy to drive fast not because it has relatively low power (kind of a ridiculous assertion) but because of its engine and chassis characteristics. Numerous people who regularly ring have said this time and again on these boards.

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I don't agree with most of what fog city says (what's new?), and IMO it's overdramatic, especial for someone who hasn't driven the car to make some of those assertions. Mdm is a significant limitation for any decent / average driver . And the reason the e92 may be "easier" to drive is that it has a lot less power, not that it has better throttle response. More powerful rwd cars are always a little trickier to drive all things being equal. Gotta be careful on the throttle coming out of corners. But that's something that can be easily learned.

But, eps is also physically linked to the wheels / suspension. The only difference is a hydraulic vs electromechanical motor