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      02-23-2023, 08:22 PM   #1
2023G87M2
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How have acceleration times gotten so good just in the past 10 years?

And I know it's not tires tire tech couldn't have evolved this much in 10 years.

Just 10 years ago for example 4.5-4.8 seconds was a 335i time but even a non AWD one today does it in 4.0 sometimes less.

Same with the non xdrive m3 doing 3.7 or less with 500hp, but a 600hp tuned f80, barely reached 3.7?

And similar examples. Is it better suspension? Better power delivery to the axles? Less drive train loss?

IT seems cars with 350hp nowadays can hit 3.5 seconds or less whereas 10 years ago they averaged 5 seconds or more and AWD only shaved off 0.3 seconds max from the 5 seconds. What happened?

I'm also factoring in torque here too let's say similar torque to hp
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      02-23-2023, 08:43 PM   #2
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It's all of it, really, and chief among them better TC.
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      02-23-2023, 09:21 PM   #3
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torque management (a part of traction control), like ///MPhatic said.
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      02-23-2023, 09:27 PM   #4
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Tires, tons of electronics, automatic transmissions, and all wheel drive.
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      02-23-2023, 09:35 PM   #5
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ATs today are worlds better than anything from past generations. Add in traction control systems and (basically) no-lag forced induction, and there's your answer.
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      02-24-2023, 03:14 AM   #6
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Compare one of the ultimate performance machines of the early 1960s -- the Ferrari 250GTO -- with anything today and you are amazed at the progress over the years.

EDIT: Looked up the published 250GTO acceleration time to 100 km/hr (0 to 62 mph) in the respected work on Ferrari by Rainer W. Schlegelmilch and the number given is 5.6 seconds.
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      02-24-2023, 07:24 AM   #7
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The tuning of the turbo and 8 speed automatic seems to be the key for BMW. Their underrating of total horsepower also helps.

Most BMW engines seem to get max torque as low as 1500 rpm because they tune the turbo boost for low end torque. This feels like really good power in normal driving, so you can keep your foot out of it and get decent gas mileage. However, if you do hit the accelerator hard they use the combination of the 8 speed auto and turbo boost to keep power/torque high almost constantly during acceleration. That provides great 0-60 times.

For the M340i you end up with 0-60 of about 4 seconds, and highway gas mileage of 32-35 mpg. The best of both worlds.
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      02-24-2023, 09:30 AM   #8
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Traction control is now much higher sample rate and they can close a halfway decent control loop to prevent spin.

It has nothing to do with the gearbox etc.
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      02-24-2023, 10:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Traction control is now much higher sample rate and they can close a halfway decent control loop to prevent spin.

It has nothing to do with the gearbox etc.
Yes, most EV's have single speed gear boxes and accomplish their rapid acceleration the same way, by managing the torque put into the system, and to which wheels (where available).

It takes a management system to not overwhelm the traction available. Cars got to a point where more power didn't get put to the pavement and turned into motion, it just overwhelmed traction.

Not unlike antilock brakes, (but inverse), managing traction by electronic intervention of the brake systems pressure, limiting torque applied to the rotor to maintain that traction. Modern ABS systems reduce stopping distance in almost all scenarios.
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      02-24-2023, 11:14 AM   #10
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TC and especially launch control in turbo equipped vehicles. Having full boost when dropping the hammer is a godsend when playing stop light heroics. 5-60 is a much better indicator of real world acceleration. My go-to measurement from idle, though, is trap speed through the 1/4.
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      02-24-2023, 11:27 AM   #11
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All wheel drive, tire technology, engine efficiency, launch control.

Weight is one of the biggest contributors that doesn't get spoken of enough. Cars are disgusting pigs now.
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      02-24-2023, 02:10 PM   #12
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I don't even pay attention to acceleration numbers of new cars anymore. What is the point really, they are all plenty quick enough. I couldn't even tell you the 0-60 of G87 M2, even though I am somewhat interested in it.
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      02-24-2023, 03:18 PM   #13
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They are going after 0-60. Supercars have first gears that go to 60, most sporty cars have second gear going to 60-62 by design for that better number. Measurements have been changed to factor in rollout and temperature in mag testing.

If I want to know a cars acceleration I'll look at 5-60 or 1/4 trap speed. To me that's more 'real world' since I'm usually flooring it when the car is already in motion.

FYI a tesla model 3 performance still beats out a g80 comp xdrive on 5-60mph.

Great video if you have the time :


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      02-24-2023, 03:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Right, because gearing has nothing to do with engine torque multiplication. Gotcha.
Maybe learn to read the OPs question. The difference between 0-60 on fast cars, EVs, and particularly F8x to G8x is the closed loop traction control. They don't need closer gearing to be faster and haven't for over a decade. All fast cars have been TRACTION LIMITED for a long time. I realize that may be hard to understand if you haven't driven anything faster than an N52 E90.
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      02-24-2023, 04:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Lol. My 1990 CBR 1000 Hurricane was 3.7 seconds to 60 MPH (cough) 32 years ago. When did semi-affordable street cars (and Tesla's) get under 4 seconds?

BTW, all traction control systems are closed-loop by definition. Even Kia's have "closed-loop" traction control.
No shit, but a good one, like a PI with FF and more than a couple Hz loop bandwidth. Not some thermostat grade bang-bang control like a car from the 90s or early 2000s has.

Maybe you should drive a C6 vs C7 or F80 vs G80 and figure it out yourself. The newer versions of both just go without allowing nearly as much wheelspin. Almost like a Tesla which will give you as fast a launch as the surface will support anytime you mash the throttle. Neither are as effective as Tesla's controller still, but it's not because of torque or gearing.

The bottom line is he asked why a F80 and G80 RWD accelerate differently 0-60 as an example and the reason for that is the improved traction control from Bosch.

Last edited by chris719; 02-24-2023 at 05:02 PM..
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      02-24-2023, 05:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2023G87M2 View Post
And I know it's not tires tire tech couldn't have evolved this much in 10 years.

Just 10 years ago for example 4.5-4.8 seconds was a 335i time but even a non AWD one today does it in 4.0 sometimes less.

Same with the non xdrive m3 doing 3.7 or less with 500hp, but a 600hp tuned f80, barely reached 3.7?

And similar examples. Is it better suspension? Better power delivery to the axles? Less drive train loss?

IT seems cars with 350hp nowadays can hit 3.5 seconds or less whereas 10 years ago they averaged 5 seconds or more and AWD only shaved off 0.3 seconds max from the 5 seconds. What happened?

I'm also factoring in torque here too let's say similar torque to hp
Power. And torque. That's all.

Specific output has trended higher with direct injection, widespread turbocharging and combustion efficiency (converting chemical to kinetic energy).

The other factors you listed are far less important than power and torque.
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      02-24-2023, 05:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Power. And torque. That's all.

Specific output has trended higher with direct injection, widespread turbocharging and combustion efficiency (converting chemical to kinetic energy).

The other factors you listed are far less important than power and torque.
This is just not the bulk of the improvement. Even an old E90 335i is traction limited off the line. If they had traction control like a Tesla, you would be surprised at the numbers.

Check out 0-60 vs 5-60 for EVs, for example. EVs are fast from a stop because they don't spin. If you are fast enough, you can allow only "microslip" and maximize the traction offered.

Last edited by chris719; 02-24-2023 at 05:12 PM..
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      02-24-2023, 05:10 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Yes, most EV's have single speed gear boxes and accomplish their rapid acceleration the same way, by managing the torque put into the system, and to which wheels (where available).

It takes a management system to not overwhelm the traction available. Cars got to a point where more power didn't get put to the pavement and turned into motion, it just overwhelmed traction.

Not unlike antilock brakes, (but inverse), managing traction by electronic intervention of the brake systems pressure, limiting torque applied to the rotor to maintain that traction. Modern ABS systems reduce stopping distance in almost all scenarios.
Yes, exactly. ABS is even very crude and slow, but it's the right analogy. Tesla is the stoplight king because they DIY their own TC firmware that works at high rates instead of buying 5 year old shit from a supplier.
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      02-24-2023, 05:17 PM   #19
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Dumb question: I don't use launch control much, but when I do, I have to turn off DSC. Does that mean that DSC is not active during Launch Control? I always thought it was doing something even though it is "off" during Launch Control. Case in point: If you put too much steering input during Launch Control, it will cut power (annoyingly), so the DSC is definitely doing something.
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      02-24-2023, 05:21 PM   #20
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I think EVs have forced ICE makers to up their game to not get completely demolished in the meaningless stoplight wars.
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      02-24-2023, 07:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Dude, I get it. You have a hair up your ass for me for some reason. Not sure why and I don't care. Perhaps a psychiatrist can help, I'm not sure. You jump on practically every one of my posts. Fun. You like to use what you think are big-brain words like "closed-loop" because you think other people don't know what they mean. Cool.

Trying to get tires to hook up for better acceleration times is as old a pursuit as Fred Flintstone trying to soften his calluses for better grip on the cobblestone streets of Bedrock, U.S.A. And good 'ole Fred had closed-loop traction control too (not sure what frequency it used - Fred's gait maybe). What Fred lacked however, was gear multiplication of foot torque (foot-pound-foot back in his day).

Now where can I rent a C6...?

Lol.
I have nothing personal with you (in this thread), you're just wrong. Traction control as a straight line performance augmentation was not taken seriously until Tesla showed up.

btw, I work with and design control systems regularly including Nyquist and Bode stability analysis. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

Your initial post was wrong and is wrong. The gearboxes have almost nothing to do with the improvements in 0-60 times. I didn't even reply to you directly, FWIW.

Last edited by chris719; 02-24-2023 at 07:29 PM..
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      02-24-2023, 08:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Yes, exactly. ABS is even very crude and slow, but it's the right analogy. Tesla is the stoplight king because they DIY their own TC firmware that works at high rates instead of buying 5 year old shit from a supplier.
And Porsche.

And the M cars for sure vs just m sport.

Never cared for 0-60 but I think my question has been answered.

I'm now more interested in 5-60 as others have pointed out and the differences are definitely surprising and not surprising at the same time
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