Sign out
Bimmerpost
Login
BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  
Go Back   BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-10-2018, 07:02 PM   #67
other_evolved
Major
1176
Rep
1,418
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 Chevrolet SS
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Saint Louis

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
If you believe that there is no God, then the burden of proof falls on you to prove that God does not exist.
The logic of that doesn't follow and you seem like a smart guy, so I suspect you know the logic doesn't work.
Appreciate 3
minn195677.50
smoosh2179.50
Now_Rudi5928.50

      02-10-2018, 07:03 PM   #68
JohnnyCanuck
Major
Canada
1010
Rep
1,210
Posts

 
Drives: 2018 Audi RS3
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Vancouver

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Could the same be said if millions killed in the name of atheism, or simple human greed/powerlust? (Obviously yes). So it would appear the common denominator is the savagery of humans, not religion? Why stop at the western world? There are at least as many in the east, Africa, etc.
I stopped at the western world because our religions are murderous enough.In my view, all mainstream western and middle eastern religions have unjustifiable blood on their hands (including Judaism and Islam). There is no fundamental difference in the violence raged in the name of the Torah, the New Testament, or the Qu'ran.

That said, I don't recall the Taoist Crusades, the Jainist Inquisition, or anyone confusing Buddhists with Luther.
Appreciate 1
minn195677.50

      02-10-2018, 07:10 PM   #69
Chappers 71
Brigadier General
Chappers 71's Avatar
United Kingdom
1229
Rep
3,295
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335i SE
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Kent

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
If you believe that there is no God, then the burden of proof falls on you to prove that God does not exist.
Those of us that don't believe have nothing to prove & those that do believe use 'faith' in the complete absence of proof to justify there beliefs. Yes I get that there are those amongst us that need to believe in a god to make their lives worthwhile & that's fine with me
__________________
E92 335i SE
E36 328i sport coupe
E39 540i 6SP manual
E34 M5. E34 525i sport.
VW Jetta Mk2 GTI 16v. 1679cc '67 resto-cal beetle
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:11 PM   #70
RickFLM4
Brigadier General
RickFLM4's Avatar
United_States
3828
Rep
3,679
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: PB County, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
If you believe that there is no God, then the burden of proof falls on you to prove that God does not exist.
The logic of that doesn't follow and you seem like a smart guy, so I suspect you know the logic doesn't work.
Isn't disproving theories a fundamental part of science? Some believe, some don't. But there is no irrefutable reason to not believe any more than there is one to believe.
__________________
Current: 2018 SO/SS F83 ZCP
Gone: 2015 SO/SO F82
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:12 PM   #71
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5678
Rep
6,326
Posts

 
Drives: 19 F150, 19 M550 19 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
If you believe that there is no God, then the burden of proof falls on you to prove that God does not exist.
I don’t think you really want to do it that way. If you break it down in a scientific way there will be way more evidence against the existence of God (any God) than for.

Hence “faith based” religion etc.

Last edited by minn19; 02-10-2018 at 07:31 PM..
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:13 PM   #72
RickFLM4
Brigadier General
RickFLM4's Avatar
United_States
3828
Rep
3,679
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: PB County, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
If you believe that there is no God, then the burden of proof falls on you to prove that God does not exist.
I don’t think you really want to do it that anyway. If you break it down in a scientific way there will be way more evidence against the existence of God (any God) than for.

Hence “faith based” religion etc.
No conclusive evidence either way...
__________________
Current: 2018 SO/SS F83 ZCP
Gone: 2015 SO/SO F82
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:14 PM   #73
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5678
Rep
6,326
Posts

 
Drives: 19 F150, 19 M550 19 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
Isn't disproving theories a fundamental part of science? Some believe, some don't. But there is no irrefutable reason to not believe any more than there is one to believe.
Scientifically? Sure there is.
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:16 PM   #74
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5678
Rep
6,326
Posts

 
Drives: 19 F150, 19 M550 19 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
No conclusive evidence either way...
Depends on what you consider “conclusive.” You already said you believe even with all of the contradictions so you are going on faith alone. So I don’t think any evidence will sway you anyway.
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:17 PM   #75
RickFLM4
Brigadier General
RickFLM4's Avatar
United_States
3828
Rep
3,679
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: PB County, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
Isn't disproving theories a fundamental part of science? Some believe, some don't. But there is no irrefutable reason to not believe any more than there is one to believe.
Scientifically? Sure there is.
There is lots of evidence that contradicts fundamental religious beliefs. What is the irrefutable evidence that there is no God?
__________________
Current: 2018 SO/SS F83 ZCP
Gone: 2015 SO/SO F82
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:19 PM   #76
RickFLM4
Brigadier General
RickFLM4's Avatar
United_States
3828
Rep
3,679
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: PB County, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
No conclusive evidence either way...
Depends on what you consider “conclusive.” You already said you believe even with all of the contradictions so you are going on faith alone. So I don’t think any evidence will sway you anyway.
Conclusive as in the same way people learned the earth is not flat.
__________________
Current: 2018 SO/SS F83 ZCP
Gone: 2015 SO/SO F82
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:20 PM   #77
Chappers 71
Brigadier General
Chappers 71's Avatar
United Kingdom
1229
Rep
3,295
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335i SE
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Kent

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Depends on what you consider “conclusive.” You already said you believe even with all of the contradictions so you are going on faith alone. So I don’t think any evidence will sway you anyway.
The unfortunate product of centuries of brainwashing
__________________
E92 335i SE
E36 328i sport coupe
E39 540i 6SP manual
E34 M5. E34 525i sport.
VW Jetta Mk2 GTI 16v. 1679cc '67 resto-cal beetle
Appreciate 2
      02-10-2018, 07:21 PM   #78
SakhirM4
Major General
SakhirM4's Avatar
United_States
9391
Rep
8,445
Posts

 
Drives: '15 SO M4/'20 Z4 M40i (coming)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW Z4 M40i  [0.00]
2015 BMW M4  [4.38]
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I don’t think you really want to do it that anyway. If you break it down in a scientific way there will be way more evidence against the existence of God (any God) than for.

Hence “faith based” religion etc.
You are absolutely right. Faith is required for salvation. God designed it that way.
__________________
Tejas Chapter, BMW CCA, mem #23915, President 27 years, www.tejaschapter.org
2015 ///M4, SO/full black, 6MT, HK, light 19"
Appreciate 2
MKSixer14387.50
sirdaft11971.50

      02-10-2018, 07:24 PM   #79
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5678
Rep
6,326
Posts

 
Drives: 19 F150, 19 M550 19 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
There is lots of evidence that contradicts fundamental religious beliefs. What is the irrefutable evidence that there is no God?
This is the game that you guys like to play. Everything you have is faith based, but you expect others to come up with “irrefutable” evidence that God doesn’t exist. Which, is odd because you wouldn’t believe in such evidence anyway.

Circular non logical reasoning as mentioned earlier.

As I asked earlier what would you consider conclusive? 80, 90 or 99%? Another example from earlier was about Spider-Man. Science probably couldn’t 100% conclude he doesn’t exist. Do you believe Spider-Man exists?
Appreciate 4
Zlaatan567.00
smoosh2179.50

      02-10-2018, 07:27 PM   #80
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5678
Rep
6,326
Posts

 
Drives: 19 F150, 19 M550 19 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
You are absolutely right. Faith is required for salvation. God designed it that way.
Not a great design along with the always available excuse that it was/is “God’s Plan.”

Especially poor design when “God” sent his only son to an extremely small part of the world back in the day. Did he not care about everybody else all over the world? Did they all go to hell because they never heard of Jesus and worshipped other Gods?
Appreciate 1
      02-10-2018, 07:29 PM   #81
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5678
Rep
6,326
Posts

 
Drives: 19 F150, 19 M550 19 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
Conclusive as in the same way people learned the earth is not flat.
Ah but not everybody believes that now do they? They have “faith” that is flat based on their “evidence.” Sound familiar?
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:32 PM   #82
RickFLM4
Brigadier General
RickFLM4's Avatar
United_States
3828
Rep
3,679
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: PB County, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
There is lots of evidence that contradicts fundamental religious beliefs. What is the irrefutable evidence that there is no God?
This is the game that you guys like to play. Everything you have is faith based, but you expect others to come up with “irrefutable” evidence that God doesn’t exist. Which, is odd because you wouldn’t believe in such evidence anyway.

Circular non logical reasoning as mentioned earlier.

As I asked earlier what would you consider conclusive? 80, 90 or 99%? Another example from earlier was about Spider-Man. Science probably couldn’t 100% conclude he doesn’t exist. Do you believe Spider-Man exists?
Of course Spider Man exists! He has made several movies.

My point is that those who do not believe like to mock those who do because no one can prove He exists. Yet, when the table is turned and you are asked to disprove, you can't disprove either. So, yes it is a circular argument for everyone. There is no proving or disproving He exists or doesn't exist.
__________________
Current: 2018 SO/SS F83 ZCP
Gone: 2015 SO/SO F82
Appreciate 1
minn195677.50

      02-10-2018, 07:35 PM   #83
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5678
Rep
6,326
Posts

 
Drives: 19 F150, 19 M550 19 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
Of course Spider Man exists! He has made several movies.

My point is that those who do not believe like to mock those who do because no one can prove He exists. Yet, when the table is turned and you are asked to disprove, you can't disprove either. So, yes it is a circular argument for everyone. There is no proving or disproving He exists or doesn't exist.
It is actually circular reasoning. How often in regular conversation are you asking somebody to disprove something?

You and I met years ago. I loaned you a bunch of money and now I want it back. Please disprove me.

Edit: I’m not moving anyone. And their is plenty of moving from the believers side as well.
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:37 PM   #84
SakhirM4
Major General
SakhirM4's Avatar
United_States
9391
Rep
8,445
Posts

 
Drives: '15 SO M4/'20 Z4 M40i (coming)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW Z4 M40i  [0.00]
2015 BMW M4  [4.38]
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Not a great design along with the always available excuse was it is “God’s Plan.”

Especially poor design when “God” only sent his only son to an extremely small part of the world back in the day. Did he not care about everybody else all over the world? Did they all go to hell because they never heard of Jesus and worshipped other Gods?
God sent His son for everyone. John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What about those who have never heard?

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/fai...ve-never-heard

Faulty Assumptions

In their book Faith Comes by Hearing, Christopher Morgan and Robert Peterson write, "How could it be fair and just for those who have never even had a chance to hear the gospel, which is necessary for salvation, to be condemned to hell? The question sounds powerful, but behind it lie faulty assumptions."


What are these "faulty assumptions"? "The first mistaken assumption," continue Morgan and Peterson, "is that our condemnation is based on a rejection of the gospel. Scripture teaches that our condemnation is based on the fact that we are sinners, not because at some point in time we rejected the gospel … Furthermore, God's wrath is revealed against everyone who suppresses his truth revealed through creation … Strictly speaking, the Bible denies that there are persons who have never heard of God."


Morgan and Peterson go on to explain another faulty assumption, this one having to do with "a confusion of justice and mercy."

God is merciful in that He has provided a way of salvation via Christ for those who will accept Him. But God is also just in that unrepentance will not go unnoticed.

God's Way is Wide Enough

We know that God will deal fairly with those who have not received a direct presentation of the gospel, just as He will deal fairly with those who have. But is God's way too narrow? Far from it. God's way is wide enough for everyone willing to accept it and receive Christ. The most important question any of us can answer is the one Jesus asked his own disciples, "But what about you? Who do you say I am?" (Matthew 16:15; Mark 8:29; Luke 9:20).
__________________
Tejas Chapter, BMW CCA, mem #23915, President 27 years, www.tejaschapter.org
2015 ///M4, SO/full black, 6MT, HK, light 19"
Appreciate 1
MKSixer14387.50

      02-10-2018, 07:37 PM   #85
Chappers 71
Brigadier General
Chappers 71's Avatar
United Kingdom
1229
Rep
3,295
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335i SE
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Kent

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
Of course Spider Man exists! He has made several movies.

My point is that those who do not believe like to mock those who do because no one can prove He exists. Yet, when the table is turned and you are asked to disprove, you can't disprove either. So, yes it is a circular argument for everyone. There is no proving or disproving He exists or doesn't exist.
If God does exist what makes you believe it's a he?
__________________
E92 335i SE
E36 328i sport coupe
E39 540i 6SP manual
E34 M5. E34 525i sport.
VW Jetta Mk2 GTI 16v. 1679cc '67 resto-cal beetle
Appreciate 2
minn195677.50

      02-10-2018, 07:39 PM   #86
F32Fleet
Major General
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
1366
Rep
7,708
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeastern US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
My opinion: There are forces at work in the universe that we haven't begun to understand. Whether you label that "Science", "God", "Spirit", etc., is up to you. As for how I label/explain it all, I lean heavily towards the "science" side of things but am open to not ruling anything out and happy to be proven wrong.
aka "God of the gaps"
__________________
"Drive more, worry less. "

435i, MPPK, MPE, M-Sport Line
Appreciate 1
Zlaatan567.00

      02-10-2018, 07:43 PM   #87
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5678
Rep
6,326
Posts

 
Drives: 19 F150, 19 M550 19 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
God sent His son for everyone. John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What about those who have never heard?

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/fai...ve-never-heard

Faulty Assumptions

In their book Faith Comes by Hearing, Christopher Morgan and Robert Peterson write, "How could it be fair and just for those who have never even had a chance to hear the gospel, which is necessary for salvation, to be condemned to hell? The question sounds powerful, but behind it lie faulty assumptions."


What are these "faulty assumptions"? "The first mistaken assumption," continue Morgan and Peterson, "is that our condemnation is based on a rejection of the gospel. Scripture teaches that our condemnation is based on the fact that we are sinners, not because at some point in time we rejected the gospel … Furthermore, God's wrath is revealed against everyone who suppresses his truth revealed through creation … Strictly speaking, the Bible denies that there are persons who have never heard of God."


Morgan and Peterson go on to explain another faulty assumption, this one having to do with "a confusion of justice and mercy."

God is merciful in that He has provided a way of salvation via Christ for those who will accept Him. But God is also just in that unrepentance will not go unnoticed.

God's Way is Wide Enough

We know that God will deal fairly with those who have not received a direct presentation of the gospel, just as He will deal fairly with those who have. But is God's way too narrow? Far from it. God's way is wide enough for everyone willing to accept it and receive Christ. The most important question any of us can answer is the one Jesus asked his own disciples, "But what about you? Who do you say I am?" (Matthew 16:15; Mark 8:29; Luke 9:20).
Thanks for the response, but again it makes no sense to me at all in a number of ways. A lot of this is as my previous nebulous “God’s Plan.”

Talk about faulty assumptions.....the Bible denies that anybody has heard of God? In what form and it says in your text that they still need to go through Jesus to get salvation. How are you supposed to do that when you’ve never heard of him by a poorly designed communication plan? Especially in the beginning of Christianity.

This is precisely the kind of thing that leaves people asking what do they mean?
Appreciate 0
      02-10-2018, 07:47 PM   #88
RickFLM4
Brigadier General
RickFLM4's Avatar
United_States
3828
Rep
3,679
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: PB County, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
It is actually circular reasoning. How often in regular conversation are you asking somebody to disprove something?

You and I met years ago. I loaned you a bunch of money and now I want it back. Please disprove me.

Edit: I’m not moving anyone. And their is plenty of moving from the believers side as well.
I can’t disprove it anymore than you can prove it in the absence of records. However, transactions like the one you claim would be adjudicated in a court of law, not a scientific experiment. The burden of proof would be on you because if it did occur you should have evidence it occurred. Clearly that is a far cry from whether or not God exists.
__________________
Current: 2018 SO/SS F83 ZCP
Gone: 2015 SO/SO F82
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02 AM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST