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      06-01-2015, 10:43 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
More on the issue of Hell specifically though, as to why I believe it doesn't exist, yet, in it's fullness, as God has promised, has to do with Satan, the temptor... In the passage in Revelation 20 above, God cast's Satan into the lake of burning fire - Hell in it's fullness, as God describes it. Yet, as seen in Job, in Matthew, and other places in the Bible, it's pretty clearly understood that Satan roams about on the earth, tempting believers and non-believers alike to sin. He afflicted Job's life, he tempted Christ Jesus - God the Son - himself, and Peter warned us that he is still roaming around seeking those who's souls he may devour...

If Satan is still roaming on the earth, enticing us to sin, then he cannot yet be cast into the eternal lake of fire... (And I don't think it takes much convincing to agree that satans influence continues to be plainly seen all across the world...)
The Bible does say Satan is the prince and powers of this world.

In any case, we aren't arguing over a salvific issue (one that determine's ones salvation). Weather or not God exists IS a salvific issue.

As long as you know and understand Satan and Hell are both very real, as well as Heaven is real and the only way to get there is through Jesus Christ.

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      06-01-2015, 11:36 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
As Tony20009 said, Atheists believe there is no God. That is still very much a belief. +1 for the articles he lists
The fact that I believe there's no God does not make it a religion. That's weak. I also believe there's no Tooth Fairy or Santa, does that makes it a religion?
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      06-01-2015, 11:41 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
??? What are you talking about. Do Atheists not very strongly believe there is no god? That is every bit a belief as is its opposite.

RE: #2 - #6: see the sixth sense noted here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion . There doesn't need to be for a set of beliefs to be a religion.

For more thought on the matter, see the following:
All the best.

These articles are completely subjective... I believe in science, that doesn't make it a religion. I have no words to describe how silly these articles are.
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      06-01-2015, 12:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
These articles are completely subjective... I believe in science, that doesn't make it a religion. I have no words to describe how silly these articles are.
Atheism is a religion. A religion is defined as: an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence.
Atheism's "order of existence" is nothing. You hold the weakest ground in every argument.

I believe in science too. Science is defined as is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.

Science is limited. However, you are wrong to separate science and religion when, in fact, science POINTS TO Christianity.

Still waiting on your proof there is no God.
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      06-01-2015, 02:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
The fact that I believe there's no God does not make it a religion. That's weak. I also believe there's no Tooth Fairy or Santa, does that makes it a religion?
It's fascinating how some dont see the distinction between the presence of something, and the absence of something.

You can have a belief that there is a God as described in the Bible. We can all agree that makes you religious.
You can also be absent of such a belief. Somehow, people think that also makes you religious.

Using that logic, then if "Collecting Stamps" is a hobby, then those who dont partake in that must also be participating in a hobby as well.

"Hey Al, do you have any hobbies?"

"Why yes I do ! I don't collect stamps. I also don't collect coins, but I spend less time on that hobby."
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      06-01-2015, 06:48 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
These articles are completely subjective... I believe in science, that doesn't make it a religion. I have no words to describe how silly these articles are.
??? Really? You deigned to write that childish foolishness in response to my comment? It borders on insulting my intellect that you'd "say" that to me. If you can't understand that the principles of science, unlike the principles/dogma of religion, don't need yours or my belief in them to make them so, we don't need to continue this discussion any further.

Note: if you are a high school student, I understand that you yet may not have acquired the philosophical/logical thinking skills to not put forth puerile points such as the the one you offered above. Perhaps the fault is mine for assuming that you have the same or more deductive reasoning capability as I. Either way, if you are a youngster and want to have this discussion, I applaud your wanting to do so, but I don't want to be a part of a discussion at that level -- that is wherein you, others, are going to posit rebuttals as poorly thought out as the one you offered above -- at least not in a forum like this rather than in my home with my own kids or in a classroom.

I will address the point you made above, but know that if you reply with another sophomoric rebuttal, I won't respond to it. I'm not being arrogant. I'm merely expressing my lack of interest in discussing a very complex topic with anyone -- it ain't just you -- who isn't going to give the subject the extent of deep thought it deserves.

To the point in bold above:
Forget the articles. Did you look at the definition reference? It's pretty straightforward and that it is an accepted definition of the word "religion" isn't open for debate. That there is debate about it does, however, show not everyone agrees with it.

Some theists might attempt to argue God's word and existence doesn't need our belief to be so. Try as they might, the fact remains that unlike the principles of science, whether there is or is not a god -- the central point one must either accept or reject before even considering whether how true or divinely inspired be that which humans have written about their god(s) and what their god(s) think, say, or do -- is literally step one of every religious system. Every other principle of one's faith follows from that foundation for if there is no god, all the rest is irrelevant, but if there is a god, the rest of the religion's principles take on relevance.

In the case of Atheism, the whole thing starts and stops at step one, but having step one is all it takes for a belief system to be a religion. There is no requirement that a religion have more than one key principle or article of faith.

Make no mistake though. Atheists' faith in the non-existence of a god is no less strong than is the theists' faith that there is one. That Atheists' belief system has only one key principle doesn't disqualify it from being a religion. At the end of the day, there is no firmer proof that there isn't a god than is there evidence that there is one. Both systems are subjective and require faith. It's merely a matter of in what it is that one has faith.

Science is very different from religion. One does not need faith to accept, for example, that e=mc^2. The verity of that statement -- e=mc^2 -- has been deductively, irrefutably proven. You can believe it or not, but your conviction either way doesn't alter that it is so. Whereas there are lots of arguments for and against religious tenants, every damn one of them, no matter how strong, is an inductive argument.

That difference is the difference between religion and science. Absolute proof simply does not exist for the foundation of religious principles whereas it does for scientific principles. One must at some point make a choice about whether one finds cogent and convincing the inductively developed case for the existence or non-existence of one or more gods.

It is that your statement which I quoted above, KlausPA, fails to take into account the distinction between inductive and deductive reasoning, along with their use in science and religion, that led me to my opening comments in this post regarding the childlike nature of that comment.

All the best.
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      06-01-2015, 07:47 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
??? Really? You deigned to write that childish foolishness in response to my comment? It borders on insulting my intellect that you'd "say" that to me. If you can't understand that the principles of science, unlike the principles/dogma of religion, don't need yours or my belief in them to make them so, we don't need to continue this discussion any further.

Note: if you are a high school student, I understand that you yet may not have acquired the philosophical/logical thinking skills to not put forth puerile points such as the the one you offered above. Perhaps the fault is mine for assuming that you have the same or more deductive reasoning capability as I. Either way, if you are a youngster and want to have this discussion, I applaud your wanting to do so, but I don't want to be a part of a discussion at that level -- that is wherein you, others, are going to posit rebuttals as poorly thought out as the one you offered above -- at least not in a forum like this rather than in my home with my own kids or in a classroom.

I will address the point you made above, but know that if you reply with another sophomoric rebuttal, I won't respond to it. I'm not being arrogant. I'm merely expressing my lack of interest in discussing a very complex topic with anyone -- it ain't just you -- who isn't going to give the subject the extent of deep thought it deserves.

To the point in bold above:
Forget the articles. Did you look at the definition reference? It's pretty straightforward and that it is an accepted definition of the word "religion" isn't open for debate. That there is debate about it does, however, show not everyone agrees with it.

Some theists might attempt to argue God's word and existence doesn't need our belief to be so. Try as they might, the fact remains that unlike the principles of science, whether there is or is not a god -- the central point one must either accept or reject before even considering whether how true or divinely inspired be that which humans have written about their god(s) and what their god(s) think, say, or do -- is literally step one of every religious system. Every other principle of one's faith follows from that foundation for if there is no god, all the rest is irrelevant, but if there is a god, the rest of the religion's principles take on relevance.

In the case of Atheism, the whole thing starts and stops at step one. Make no mistake though. Atheists' faith in the non-existence of a god is no less strong than is the theists' faith that there is one. That Atheists' believe system has only one key principle doesn't disqualify it from being a religion. At the end of the day, there is no firmer proof that there isn't a god than is there evidence that there is one. Both systems are subjective and require faith. It's merely a matter of in what it is that one has faith.

Science is very different from religion. One does not need faith to accept, for example, that e=mc^2. The verity of that statement -- e=mc^2 -- has been deductively, irrefutably proven. You can believe it or not, but your conviction either way doesn't alter that it is so. Whereas there are lots of arguments for and against religious tenants, every damn one of them, no matter how strong, is an inductive argument.

That difference is the difference between religion and science. Absolute proof simply does not exist for the foundation of religious principles whereas it does for scientific principles. One must at some point make a choice about whether one finds cogent and convincing the inductively developed case for the existence or non-existence of one or more gods.

It is that your statement which I quoted above, KlausPA, fails to take into account the distinction between inductive and deductive reasoning, along with their use in science and religion, that led me to my opening comments in this post regarding the childlike nature of that comment.

All the best.
39 years old, Civil Engineer with Masters in Engineering from John Hopkins, registered Professional Engineer and if you have ever driven on I-95 through MD you have driven through a couple of my innovative interchanges.

If you feel frustrated then please leave the thread, don't ruin it by venting your frustration.

Any word and definition is opened to debate, throughout the years the meaning or words have changed due to the progress in society. On a personal level I do not limit myself by saying "words are not opened for debate, they are what they are..."

Let's take your definition of religion (the one you are defending) and run with it: "something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience". Please correct me if this definition is not the right one.

Every human being on the planet has some point or matter of ethics or conscience since it is hardwire in our brains. Does that mean every person on the planet has some sort of religion?

I'm 100% sure you do not believe in Santa, the Easter bunny or the Tooth Fairy, Elves, etc... does that mean your faith in not believing in the previous mentioned makes it a religion?

What about your disbelief in other Gods? Say there are 2700 Gods in the world, you believe in just one which means you are rejecting the other 2699 Gods. You need to have faith that they do not exist. I just go one God further than you...

Ethics and conscience is given to every animal in the planet and they have some sort of ethic and belief system. How do you reconcile your definition with this statement?

Now let's take your statement where you try to prove that Atheism is a religion: "In the case of Atheism, the whole thing starts and stops at step one, but having step one is all it takes for a belief system to be a religion. There is no requirement that a religion have more than one key principle or article of faith."

I assume step one is the fact that Atheism is the believe that no gods exist. There's no need to have faith to go against the claim that God exists, yes I said claim. The statement "I believe God does not exists" is not based on the lack of evidence, it is based on the claim that there's is a God.

First comes the claim of the existence of a God, then the disbelief of that claim. I justify my disbelief by not having direct evidence that supports the claim. The subject has been studied and researched and there's still no evidence that there's a God, therefore the claim cannot be proved.

I'm sure you can find real life example of a claim and how to support it.

The above brings me to the science vs. religion. In science you start with a claim "the world is round" then you need proof to support your claim.

The term belief and faith are related to each other, even in science. I'm sure you are old enough to take it from here.

Thanks for the challenging discussion.

Youngster KlausPA.
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      06-01-2015, 07:56 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post

Still waiting on your proof there is no God.
As soon as you prove that there's no flying spaghetti monster, or Thor, or Odin, or Tooth Fairy I will prove to you that there's no God.

Last edited by KlausPA; 06-01-2015 at 08:05 PM..
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      06-01-2015, 08:05 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
It's fascinating how some dont see the distinction between the presence of something, and the absence of something.

You can have a belief that there is a God as described in the Bible. We can all agree that makes you religious.
You can also be absent of such a belief. Somehow, people think that also makes you religious.

Using that logic, then if "Collecting Stamps" is a hobby, then those who dont partake in that must also be participating in a hobby as well.

"Hey Al, do you have any hobbies?"

"Why yes I do ! I don't collect stamps. I also don't collect coins, but I spend less time on that hobby."
LMAO!
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      06-01-2015, 08:50 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
39 years old, Civil Engineer with Masters in Engineering from John Hopkins, registered Professional Engineer and if you have ever driven on I-95 through MD you have driven through a couple of my innovative interchanges.

If you feel frustrated then please leave the thread, don't ruin it by venting your frustration.

Any word and definition is opened to debate, throughout the years the meaning or words have changed due to the progress in society. On a personal level I do not limit myself by saying "words are not opened for debate, they are what they are..."

Let's take your definition of religion (the one you are defending) and run with it: "something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience". Please correct me if this definition is not the right one.

Every human being on the planet has some point or matter of ethics or conscience since it is hardwire in our brains. Does that mean every person on the planet has some sort of religion?

I'm 100% sure you do not believe in Santa, the Easter bunny or the Tooth Fairy, Elves, etc... does that mean your faith in not believing in the previous mentioned makes it a religion?

What about your disbelief in other Gods? Say there are 2700 Gods in the world, you believe in just one which means you are rejecting the other 2699 Gods. You need to have faith that they do not exist. I just go one God further than you...

Ethics and conscience is given to every animal in the planet and they have some sort of ethic and belief system. How do you reconcile your definition with this statement?

Now let's take your statement where you try to prove that Atheism is a religion: "In the case of Atheism, the whole thing starts and stops at step one, but having step one is all it takes for a belief system to be a religion. There is no requirement that a religion have more than one key principle or article of faith."

I assume step one is the fact that Atheism is the believe that no gods exist. There's no need to have faith to go against the claim that God exists, yes I said claim. The statement "I believe God does not exists" is not based on the lack of evidence, it is based on the claim that there's is a God.

First comes the claim of the existence of a God, then the disbelief of that claim. I justify my disbelief by not having direct evidence that supports the claim. The subject has been studied and researched and there's still no evidence that there's a God, therefore the claim cannot be proved.

I'm sure you can find real life example of a claim and how to support it.

The above brings me to the science vs. religion. In science you start with a claim "the world is round" then you need proof to support your claim.

The term belief and faith are related to each other, even in science. I'm sure you are old enough to take it from here.

Thanks for the challenging discussion.

Youngster KlausPA.
Thank you for a thought-through reply. Regardless of whether I agree with it or think it a strong position, it's on par with something I'd expect to see from another adult. That is sufficient.

I wanted to make that clear and I will reply to your questions and comments. I'm short on time right now, but look for my comments in the next day or two.

All the best.
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      06-01-2015, 10:47 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
39 years old, Civil Engineer with Masters in Engineering from John Hopkins, registered Professional Engineer and if you have ever driven on I-95 through MD you have driven through a couple of my innovative interchanges.
I'm going to hijack for a second and say, that is too cool... So, I must ask, what goes through your head as you're driving on one of your own intersections? I can see it now, "Man, the guys that paved this road really effed that one up!" haha. Very cool career you have there...

Ok, now returning to our regularly scheduled debate...
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      06-02-2015, 05:18 AM   #56
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Dude, you're 39, I-95 (most) of it was built over 40 years ago. The section between DC and B'more was completed 5 years before you were born. North of B'more was built in the early '60s.
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      06-02-2015, 05:57 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
I'm going to hijack for a second and say, that is too cool... So, I must ask, what goes through your head as you're driving on one of your own intersections? I can see it now, "Man, the guys that paved this road really effed that one up!" haha. Very cool career you have there...

Ok, now returning to our regularly scheduled debate...
Thanks! It can be pretty cool but also frustrating... My clients want me to design a BMW for the price of a Kia.
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      06-02-2015, 06:09 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Dude, you're 39, I-95 (most) of it was built over 40 years ago. The section between DC and B'more was completed 5 years before you were born. North of B'more was built in the early '60s.
Roads in MD are constantly being upgraded and improved. My last design hasn't been finished yet (Konterra drive @ I-95) just north of the ICC (MD 200). That is a brand new interchange replacing the old 60's one. You are welcome

The interchange with MD 198 will be upgraded to a more effective facility.

I-95 before from Caton Ave. to the tunnel is being upgraded too. Big pain in the ass project though. Everything is up in the air so space is very limited.

I see you are in MD. For more info about projects near you please visit http://www.roads.maryland.gov/pages/...dschedule.aspx

And thank you for paying your State taxes!
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      06-02-2015, 08:51 AM   #59
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Thanks! It can be pretty cool but also frustrating... My clients want me to design a BMW for the price of a Kia.
Relevance?

Gentlemen, an argument stands or falls based on the premise of the argument, not on who makes the argument. The lead engineer at MIT's argument holds the same value as a young sunday school student. Otherwise you fall into what is called ad hominem where you are attacking the person, not the argument. I don't care that you're a Civil Engineer. Congratulations, you've made some interchanges. Is that what you're going to try to brag about at the gates of Heaven?? Because I don't think that will do Please stay on topic.

Also, we have been calling Christianity a religion, when it is better defined as a worldview. A worldview is defined as, "the fundamental cognitive orientation of an individual or society encompassing the entirety of the individual or society's knowledge and point of view." Christianity cannot be limited to just a religion. To be a Christian changes your cognitive orientation.

Atheism falls under the Postmodern worldview, which is what most of America has fallen into today. Postmodernists claim moral relativism, no absolute truth, etc.

Also, on the argument of science vs. religion-
Science is what is knowable, testable, and repeatable. I can not SCIENTIFICALLY prove that Abraham Lincoln was ever a president of the United States. I cannot SCIENTIFICALLY prove that you can travel faster than the speed of light in your E=MC^2 example.
The Bible has to be HISTORICALLY proven. I CAN historically prove Abe Lincoln was once a president of the United States. Keep in mind the difference.

I love your false analogies. Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, things like that aren't conceptually possible or logical. God, however, can be deduced as necessary using basic logic.

Now, you're left with two options: logically deduct that Santa Claus is NECESSARY as I have proven God is logically necessary (even though this is a false analogy) or go ahead and pony up that proof that God doesn't exist. I'll be waiting in longing anticipation.
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      06-02-2015, 09:58 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Relevance?

Gentlemen, an argument stands or falls based on the premise of the argument, not on who makes the argument. The lead engineer at MIT's argument holds the same value as a young sunday school student. Otherwise you fall into what is called ad hominem where you are attacking the person, not the argument. I don't care that you're a Civil Engineer. Congratulations, you've made some interchanges. Is that what you're going to try to brag about at the gates of Heaven?? Because I don't think that will do Please stay on topic.

Also, we have been calling Christianity a religion, when it is better defined as a worldview. A worldview is defined as, "the fundamental cognitive orientation of an individual or society encompassing the entirety of the individual or society's knowledge and point of view." Christianity cannot be limited to just a religion. To be a Christian changes your cognitive orientation.

Atheism falls under the Postmodern worldview, which is what most of America has fallen into today. Postmodernists claim moral relativism, no absolute truth, etc.

Also, on the argument of science vs. religion-
Science is what is knowable, testable, and repeatable. I can not SCIENTIFICALLY prove that Abraham Lincoln was ever a president of the United States. I cannot SCIENTIFICALLY prove that you can travel faster than the speed of light in your E=MC^2 example.
The Bible has to be HISTORICALLY proven. I CAN historically prove Abe Lincoln was once a president of the United States. Keep in mind the difference.

I love your false analogies. Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, things like that aren't conceptually possible or logical. God, however, can be deduced as necessary using basic logic.

Now, you're left with two options: logically deduct that Santa Claus is NECESSARY as I have proven God is logically necessary (even though this is a false analogy) or go ahead and pony up that proof that God doesn't exist. I'll be waiting in longing anticipation.

How in the world did you deduct that God is logically necessary and conceptually possible? I'm very interested to hear your basic logic.
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      06-02-2015, 10:28 AM   #61
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How in the world did you deduct that God is logically necessary and conceptually possible? I'm very interested to hear your basic logic.
Did you read page one? That was one of the first things I did.
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      06-02-2015, 10:30 AM   #62
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Roads in MD are constantly being upgraded and improved. My last design hasn't been finished yet (Konterra drive @ I-95) just north of the ICC (MD 200). That is a brand new interchange replacing the old 60's one. You are welcome

The interchange with MD 198 will be upgraded to a more effective facility.

I-95 before from Caton Ave. to the tunnel is being upgraded too. Big pain in the ass project though. Everything is up in the air so space is very limited.

I see you are in MD. For more info about projects near you please visit http://www.roads.maryland.gov/pages/...dschedule.aspx

And thank you for paying your State taxes!
It's bit of a joke in my sig. I moved out of Maryland (Marland...) 12 years ago - I lived in Maryland until I was 42. I went to high school with O'Malley; he was a dork then too. Good interchange design is one that reduces accidents (eliminates them perhaps) and doesn't cause traffic jams. I hope your designs do both. I do understand the difficulty of stuffing a new interchange in claimed real-estate; quite a challenge I would imagine.

Now if you know the engineer who put the VA Route 66 HOV lane on the left hand side of the road, he was a complete dumb..., well let's just say it is a very bad road design that causes traffic jams. The road design handbook needs to be rethoought on HOV lanes. Just a comment from a commuter...
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      06-02-2015, 12:33 PM   #63
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For me, what puts Atheism into the religious category, vs. those who have or haven't a belief in Santa, TF, Flying spaghetti is the fact that the Atheist makes a point of you knowing their disbelief. Also, that disbelief somehow shapes and defines their day to day life.

Oh, and this all said with total respect.
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      06-02-2015, 06:44 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
It's bit of a joke in my sig. I moved out of Maryland (Marland...) 12 years ago - I lived in Maryland until I was 42. I went to high school with O'Malley; he was a dork then too. Good interchange design is one that reduces accidents (eliminates them perhaps) and doesn't cause traffic jams. I hope your designs do both. I do understand the difficulty of stuffing a new interchange in claimed real-estate; quite a challenge I would imagine.

Now if you know the engineer who put the VA Route 66 HOV lane on the left hand side of the road, he was a complete dumb..., well let's just say it is a very bad road design that causes traffic jams. The road design handbook needs to be rethoought on HOV lanes. Just a comment from a commuter...
VA is a whole different animal, especially the Fairfax-Dulles-Centreville area. Traffic is just nuts! I don't have the balls to propose anything down there... I know for a fact that it won't really work.
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      06-03-2015, 08:01 AM   #65
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VA is a whole different animal, especially the Fairfax-Dulles-Centreville area. Traffic is just nuts! I don't have the balls to propose anything down there... I know for a fact that it won't really work.

I believe you're trying to avoid the topic at hand...
Update: still waiting on your proof there is no God.
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      06-03-2015, 09:02 AM   #66
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Now if you know the engineer who [designed] VA Route 66...he was a complete dumb...
I fixed that for accuracy.

All of it through the NOVA area is a complete cluster, especially inside the Beltway.
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