Anyone miss driving a manual?

[86Zed]

Going to have to pry the manual from my cold, dead hands.

The modern 8+ speed automatics are an enormous improvement over transmissions from even a decade ago. We finally added an AT daily driver and its great for longer hauls and family trips.

[RM7]

I haven't had 7/8 speed auto transmissions w/o ACC, but the autos that I've used from the same time period seem to be a lot less aggressive at downshifting to maintain speed based on cruise control speed or braking. I don't know if the ACC cars get additional logic or something, but I'd agree with the above. The only part I don't really like is starting in most non-sport modes seems to be in 2nd gear and then it's just too lazy, especially when trying to get into traffic when there's a gap, then it realizes you are asking for more and downshifts, which creates an even bigger delay. This varies by car, some it's not bad, some it's bad. But back to the general auto logic, it's impressive.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by RM7

I haven't had 7/8 speed auto transmissions w/o ACC, but the autos that I've used from the same time period seem to be a lot less aggressive at downshifting to maintain speed based on cruise control speed or braking. I don't know if the ACC cars get additional logic or something, but I'd agree with the above. The only part I don't really like is starting in most non-sport modes seems to be in 2nd gear and then it's just too lazy, especially when trying to get into traffic when there's a gap, then it realizes you are asking for more and downshifts, which creates an even bigger delay. This varies by car, some it's not bad, some it's bad. But back to the general auto logic, it's impressive.

But even with that small delay (we're talking a full second AT WORST), is still faster than a person making that decision in real time on which gear TO downshift to depending on the gap and how soon you need to take that gap before it closes.

The auto will always be favored. Not everyone who is driving a manual is constantly downshifting to the lowest gear to find that perfect powerband in case a gap presents itself. Some manual people could downshift one gear in anticipation of looking for a gap to pass but could still be one more gear too high in trying to expose that gap quick enough.

I still don't see the advantage for a manual in these cases. I daily'ed a manual numerous times in the past. Autos are just too smart now. If you have a proper auto, it will downshift immediately and off you go.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

But even with that small delay (we're talking a full second AT WORST), is still faster than a person making that decision in real time on which gear TO downshift to depending on the gap and how soon you need to take that gap before it closes.

No, because I don't start in second with my manual.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by RM7

No, because I don't start in second with my manual.

Has nothing to do with that.

I'm saying if you constantly have to be in a lower gear to exploit gaps, it means there aren't many of them. Which means there's a higher flow of traffic. Which means you're not supposed to be driving aggressively anyway. And people thought tesla drivers are out of control "zipping in and out of traffic"?

At least teslas have the immediate torque to exploit a gap instantly.

A proper auto in real world driving is so superior when you actually want to talk about "defensive driving".

This isn't the 90s or even the early or late 2000s when autos were fucking trash. They have advanced so much.

That's why i said earlier i have more "fun" in my M3 because of the auto even though it's slower than my manual car.

You have the combination of refinement, comfort, and speed with an auto in a performance car.

[nicholasn]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

But even with that small delay (we're talking a full second AT WORST), is still faster than a person making that decision in real time on which gear TO downshift to depending on the gap and how soon you need to take that gap before it closes.

The auto will always be favored. Not everyone who is driving a manual is constantly downshifting to the lowest gear to find that perfect powerband in case a gap presents itself. Some manual people could downshift one gear in anticipation of looking for a gap to pass but could still be one more gear too high in trying to expose that gap quick enough.

I still don't see the advantage for a manual in these cases. I daily'ed a manual numerous times in the past. Autos are just too smart now. If you have a proper auto, it will downshift immediately and off you go.

Any manual driver who has half an idea what they are doing is not gonna be lugging around in the highest gear possible while they're looking for a gap in traffic. All of the automatics I have driven were caught off guard in these situations because they were always hunting for the highest gear. Outside of high performance cars, automatics will be reactive instead of proactive and will not initially be in the right gear for those maneuvers unless you switch to manual mode...in which case defeats the purpose of driving an automatic in the first place.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

This is precisely the point. I drive manuals to prevent from being in the highest gear possible when I don't want it be. As you state, using manual mode defeats the purpose of driving an automatic. And I'll go further to state a manually shifted automatic does not come near emulating a real manual transmission regardless of how many times the person says it to try and convince himself of it.

And add natural aspiration to the mix and you have instantaneous power delivery that forced induction has a hard time matching.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by nicholasn

Any manual driver who has half an idea what they are doing is not gonna be lugging around in the highest gear possible while they're looking for a gap in traffic. All of the automatics I have driven were caught off guard in these situations because they were always hunting for the highest gear. Outside of high performance cars, automatics will be reactive instead of proactive and will not initially be in the right gear for those maneuvers unless you switch to manual mode...in which case defeats the purpose of driving an automatic in the first place.

You're not understanding.

If you're constantly trying to find gaps, that means there's a lot of traffic, why would you need to have your engine scream at the highest RPM just so you can pick and choose your gaps? In the tri-state area, we call that "cat and mouse racing".

An auto is the spur of the moment convenience. Oh look there's a gap, drop your right foot, the trans instantly downshifts and off you go.

Not, oh wait, "downshift 3rd gear? Ok 3rd gear it is. No wait the car next to me is speeding up. The gap is closing faster than i thought, i should be in 2nd gear instead. Whoops, gap is closed. I'm stuck behind this slow driver now."

An auto eliminates ALL guesswork. Doesn't matter how good you are at manual driving. There is always a delay whenever you're street driving a manual. Are you racing people in your daily commute?

[BMWCCA1]

Once again, the chief proponent of the automatic in this thread uses traffic jams to support his choice. Blaaaah!

[DocL]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

This is precisely the point. I drive manuals to prevent from being in the highest gear possible when I don't want it be. As you state, using manual mode defeats the purpose of driving an automatic. And I'll go further to state a manually shifted automatic does not come near emulating a real manual transmission regardless of how many times the person says it to try and convince himself of it.

You hit the nail on the head sir.

I've been driving a manual for 40yrs and I'll always prefer it over any kind of auto. I know exactly where to be in the powerband and I never have a problem getting through a slot in traffic. No bogging down, and the only time I'm in the next higher gear is when the road is open in front of me and I have no plans of switching lanes. Come to think of it, maybe this is why I can't muster more than 16.5mpg lol.

[DocL]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

You're not understanding.

If you're constantly trying to find gaps, that means there's a lot of traffic, why would you need to have your engine scream at the highest RPM just so you can pick and choose your gaps? In the tri-state area, we call that "cat and mouse racing".

An auto is the spur of the moment convenience. Oh look there's a gap, drop your right foot, the trans instantly downshifts and off you go.

Not, oh wait, "downshift 3rd gear? Ok 3rd gear it is. No wait the car next to me is speeding up. The gap is closing faster than i thought, i should be in 2nd gear instead. Whoops, gap is closed. I'm stuck behind this slow driver now."

An auto eliminates ALL guesswork. Doesn't matter how good you are at manual driving. There is always a delay whenever you're street driving a manual. Are you racing people in your daily commute?

If you are in 4th gear and need to go to second, then there is an inherent problem about driving a manual. Taking this scenario having to downshift to 2nd, that means you are either on the highway and the traffic suddenly stops and you need to change lanes. Or, you are on a local road at let's say 40mph and you are clearly in the wrong gear.

This is simply not understanding how to drive a manual. So for you, an automatic is definitely the correct decision. As you say, you don't have to think, just point the car and smash the gas pedal. That's how my wife drives btw.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by DocL

If you are in 4th gear and need to go to second, then there is an inherent problem about driving a manual. Taking this scenario having to downshift to 2nd, that means you are either on the highway and the traffic suddenly stops and you need to change lanes. Or, you are on a local road at let's say 40mph and you are clearly in the wrong gear.

Every car has different gear ratios and different powerbands. What about people who are driving an older manual? Meaning no turbo technology. All NA, with NO torque down low? I guess just be ready to exploit a gap by keeping the revs near redline? That's not ideal driving.

This is simply not understanding how to drive a manual. So for you, an automatic is definitely the correct decision. As you say, you don't have to think, just point the car and smash the gas pedal. That's how my wife drives btw.

Please. Driven multiple manual cars as my daily. Had a stage 4 clutch in my cammed LS2 GTO. Not exactly the easiest car to drive. And i daily drove that for almost 2 years. Had a wrx, daily'ed that. Had multiple vettes. All manual. Had an rx7 for over 10 years.

You guys must live in a world where you do not meet these scenarios. You guys are out driving in the sticks where you see one car per mile. So it's easy for you to do the chicken dance.

I been there and done that for over 2 decades. Maybe manual driving is easier for some of you depending on where you live. I am simply stating the experiences you could run into, because of what i experienced.

Doesn't matter how you slice it. An auto is still superior in daily driving conditions and the conditions i mentioned.

If you're ok with doing that in your manual that's great. And i can't say you're wrong because i would be wrong saying that.

But doesn't change the fact auto is still superior in those conditions regardless of what else you guys can say.

And it doesn't even matter. Because the end argument is the manual being phased out. I guess that's my "victory" if i want to be a dick about it.

But i won't, because i know there are a lot of you out there who really cherish this dead art. And i guess that's cool with me.

#savethedeadart

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So, when driving a manual and carving traffic you are watching all of the traffic in front of you and behind, for the few moments you are in a group of cars, you observe the other driver's habits, their ability to judge and react to the traffic, what kind of car they drive, and how banged up their car is and where it is banged up. With all that data processed, you anticipate where the gaps will show up BEFORE they open, then ahead of time you select the correct gear for the RPM range you need the engine to be in for the power you need to get to the gap WHEN it opens.

That's just a ticking time-bomb till you misjudge that and wreck or cause someone else to wreck. Not worth it if that's where you think a manual is "better"...

[Darth One]

What happened to this thread

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The manual is being "phased out" not because it's old technology that is being replaced by newer transmission technology. The manual is being phased out because of the advent of the cell phone.

Interesting take, if you are not looking at automotive development.

Future emission legislation is not achievable without hybrid elements, (any transmission type).

MT with a clutch is not suitable for many of the driving assistance aids, now incorporated into vehicles.

Even companies like Getrag are working on hybridized MT (including an e-clutch) to reduce emissions, (reduce mpg), be useable with driving assistance features like active sailing/coasting, emergency braking, active cruise control, etc., and hybrid drivetrains.

To fully benefit from BMW's MHT (Mild Hybrid Technology) we need AT at the heart of it.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Interesting take, if you are not looking at automotive development.

Future emission legislation is not achievable without hybrid elements, (any transmission type).

MT with a clutch is not suitable for many of the driving assistance aids, now incorporated into vehicles.

Even companies like Getrag are working on hybridized MT (including an e-clutch) to reduce emissions, (reduce mpg), be useable with driving assistance features like active sailing/coasting, emergency braking, active cruise control, etc., and hybrid drivetrains.

To fully benefit from BMW's MHT (Mild Hybrid Technology) we need AT at the heart of it.

Right.

Manual is also being phased out because performance cars are superior with auto (manuals are slower basically).

Manual also achieves worse MPG.

Manual also can not incorporate driver assistance (as you mentioned above).

Manual can not have certain driver conveniences (like remote start).


The list goes on and on. It's phased out, or almost to the point of being extinct, because it's old technology.

Of course there will always be a few, a small percentage that still want it. Similar to those who still play nintendo games. Lots of people still play nintendo games yet we have incredible ultra real life graphics with PC gaming. Yet there are people who still play old ass nintendo games. Does that make nintendo games better? Of course not.

But some people have the urge to feel nostalgic at times. And i'll admit i feel that way too.

But never to the point where i have to argue and trying to pretend manual still has any advantage whatsoever in terms of driving.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Right.

Manual is also being phased out because performance cars are superior with auto (manuals are slower basically).

Manual also achieves worse MPG.

Manual also can not incorporate driver assistance (as you mentioned above).

Manual can not have certain driver conveniences (like remote start).

How much quicker, and does it really matter?

Worse MPG? How, in EPA testing which is always done in top-gear at 54-mph?

How much more driver assistance do you need? Even my E82 had cruise and PDK.

Remote start? Didn't BMW "rent" that to manual tranny cars by mistake? Who really needs it? Worst thing you can do to one of these is start it up cold and let it idle. Do you not have a garage?

Grasping at straws to justify the fact that you have to live and commute in an environment that is simply hostile to cars—and driving enjoyment?

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

How much quicker, and does it really matter?

Of course it matters. What other argument would you guys have besides every fact i mentioned?

Oh yeah, because you can ONLY have more "fun" with a manual? Fun is subjective. I already killed that theory because i have a manual car and i still find auto more fun.

Worse MPG? How, in EPA testing which is always done in top-gear at 54-mph?

Why do you think we have 8 speed autos? 10 speed autos? Basically the last couple of gears are all overdrives. For better fuel economy.

How much more driver assistance do you need? Even my E82 had cruise and PDK.

It doesn't matter to you but that is a deal maker/breaker to A LOT of car buyers. People use their car for commuting. Some people drive all highway miles everyday. Lane keep, ACC matters to most people. Then again i am talking to a manual guy so i expect some of you to have really LOW standards when it comes to driving.

Remote start? Didn't BMW "rent" that to manual tranny cars by mistake? Who really needs it? Worst thing you can do to one of these is start it up cold and let it idle. Do you not have a garage?

Who really needs it? Make a poll on a random forum and ask them that. 90%+ will want that. Why would you go to your garage and start the car? You'll still need to open the garage door for the exhaust fumes. So if that's the case, yeah you're right you don't need remote start. Do everything like the prehistoric days.

Nothing like starting the car, where ever i am, especially at work since my car is usually parked on the 3rd level at work, which literally takes me about 6 minutes from the time i clock out, say goodbye to my co-workers, even give a little friendly kiss to one of my best buddies at work, who's married but i don't give a shit because she's cool as hell. Yeah those 6 minutes of having the car nice and toasty (or cool in the summer) by the time i get to the car is always convenient.

Don't say you don't want it, just because your car doesn't allow it since you probably leave your manual car in gear when parked lol.

Grasping at straws to justify the fact that you have to live and commute in an environment that is simply hostile to cars—and driving enjoyment?

Not grasping at straws. Your argument is already lost in every facet of the actual argument.

Only thing i would give you is fun factor. You guys are just wrong if anyone says, "ONLY more fun", with a manual.

Other than that, if you find manual more fun, then you find it more fun. I can't tell you otherwise. You enjoy it more, then you enjoy it more. I can't tell you otherwise.

Other than that, your argument is toast. Just like manuals pretty soon as it's already almost there.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll write this slowly...

Driver aids were developed because 15 years ago

Pretty sure cruise control is more than 15 years old.

[UPSROD]

I had a '73 Hurst Olds with factory cruise control!

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Other than that, your argument is toast. Just like manuals pretty soon as it's already almost there.

Almost very argument you make in favor of the automatic is based on traffic, convenience, accommodating commuters, etc.

Can't you just admit that an automatic works for you because of your lifestyle? Are you so self-centered that you think everyone lives in your rat-race world? You know there is a wide world of beautiful countryside beyond your myopic range where people enjoy driving and the beautiful roads where the involvement of a manual transmission enhances the drive? We're not all stuck in commuter traffic on controlled-access highways.

The question was "does anyone miss driving a manual transmission?". Not "are any you stuck in traffic missing your manual transmission?"

[swanson]

I miss driving a manual, traffic or not. I dont GAS about performance numbers or extra tech. I enjoy shifting myself and being in control of the car.