Motor Trend ACR vs. Z06 vs. GT3 RS (coming soon - not published yet)

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by AW335TT

Ford GT350R offers far more performance than a comparably priced Porsche.

Than a comparably priced Porsche, yes. But it's not in the same league as the cars we are talking about. It is a helluva car though, and my hats off to Ford for delivering such a product.

[AW335TT]

Well the convo was about getting more, for less.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by AW335TT

I don't see how moving the wheels 3 inches back moves the engine up 3 inches..

Unless the engine mounting points were moved up 3 inches, and the engine was sitting 3 inches closer to the driver now.. The engine is still in the very back of the car.

The second part of what you said is exactly correct in terms of what happened. Think about it though. Where an engine is placed in relation to the rear axle is what determines mid or rear engined. You can either move the engine or the axle. They net out to the same thing. In this car the rear axle is now mounted further back in which the engine now sits 3 inches closer to the driver.

[1MOREMOD]

Local dealer has 2011 gt3rs in aqua blue with red stickers with 264 miles. They want 329k pfft!

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Local dealer has 2011 gt3rs in aqua blue with red stickers with 264 miles. They want 329k pfft!

Actually surprised it's that low. I saw one the other day listed for 400k at auto gallery.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

Actually surprised it's that low. I saw one the other day listed for 400k at auto gallery.

Uh why double the new price because it's 4 years old and not driven?

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Uh why double the new price because it's 4 years old and not driven?

The RS 4.0s go for 500k now.

Low production, best manual probably ever in a Production car, the winningest motor in race history, and of course the performance handling and it being a world class drivers car.

Supply and demand. So many people want the GT cars which is why there has been such an exponential appreciation in values.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

The second part of what you said is exactly correct in terms of what happened. Think about it though. Where an engine is placed in relation to the rear axle is what determines mid or rear engined. You can either move the engine or the axle. They net out to the same thing. In this car the rear axle is now mounted further back in which the engine now sits 3 inches closer to the driver.

That's better, but it's not "more mid engined", it's still a rear-engined car and there's no such thing as more or less mid-engined, it's either that or it's not. Although the center of mass of the LS3/7 and associated V8s in Camaros and Corevettes is actually behind the front axle, we even still refer to those cars as front engined. I'm ok with being "technical correct" here, but claiming that an engine CG sitting 1mm past the axle is going to have the handling of one sitting 6" past is stretching it, hence why even some of these that barely meet the definition aren't really included. The 911 is a rear-engined car. At this point, even Porsche knows it's not the highest performance chassis, hence why the 918 is mid-engined. As Porsche "sticks to their guns" with the 911 chassis, it's getting easier and easier for GM and others to beat.

Going back to your "nothing else with 500hp comes close", the Z06 pulled 7:22 on the Nurburgring, besting the 911 GT2s, Nissan GT-R, etc. This is because GM designed a car to handle well and be competitive, in fact, many drivers were able to turn faster times with this car vs. the 640hp ZR1. But that was back then. Now, cars like the Ford GT350R are giving it serious competition. They are slowly, but steadily, stepping through the lines of the likes of Porsche and answering everything that cars like the 911, Turbo S and GT3 are capable of.

[AW335TT]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

The second part of what you said is exactly correct in terms of what happened. Think about it though. Where an engine is placed in relation to the rear axle is what determines mid or rear engined. You can either move the engine or the axle. They net out to the same thing. In this car the rear axle is now mounted further back in which the engine now sits 3 inches closer to the driver.

If the engine was moved up that's a different story.

Leaving the wheel base as is and moving the engine in isn't the same as leaving the engine in the same place and pushing the wheels back.

[chillindrdude]

Auto Gallery can go eatadik. They are no different than ticket scalpers.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by AW335TT

If the engine was moved up that's a different story.

Leaving the wheel base as is and moving the engine in isn't the same as leaving the engine in the same place and pushing the wheels back.

Please think about what you're saying. I wish I could draw this up for you so you could see.
The point is, the engine moved toward the front of the car. There is nothing to argue about besides maybe the language one would use but it moved forward three inches, and that's all that matters.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

That's better, but it's not "more mid engined", it's still a rear-engined car and there's no such thing as more or less mid-engined, it's either that or it's not. Although the center of mass of the LS3/7 and associated V8s in Camaros and Corevettes is actually behind the front axle, we even still refer to those cars as front engined. I'm ok with being "technical correct" here, but claiming that an engine CG sitting 1mm past the axle is going to have the handling of one sitting 6" past is stretching it, hence why even some of these that barely meet the definition aren't really included. The 911 is a rear-engined car. At this point, even Porsche knows it's not the highest performance chassis, hence why the 918 is mid-engined. As Porsche "sticks to their guns" with the 911 chassis, it's getting easier and easier for GM and others to beat.

Going back to your "nothing else with 500hp comes close", the Z06 pulled 7:22 on the Nurburgring, besting the 911 GT2s, Nissan GT-R, etc. This is because GM designed a car to handle well and be competitive, in fact, many drivers were able to turn faster times with this car vs. the 640hp ZR1. But that was back then. Now, cars like the Ford GT350R are giving it serious competition. They are slowly, but steadily, stepping through the lines of the likes of Porsche and answering everything that cars like the 911, Turbo S and GT3 are capable of.

Again, saying "more mid engined" was just a way of saying it moved forward by three inches. We all seem to be getting stuck on semantics when we all know what happened.
Ok so of all the cars out there one that has 505 hp (and was pretty underated too) and weighed 3100 lbs is still slower (despite a better power to weight ratio).
You just helped to make my point in showing that for what Porsche offers nothing really is coming close. Even the zr1 was only able to manage just slightly below 7:20 even though it has 640/640 hp/tq. Again just a testament to the absurdly fast times the GT3 and RS lay down.
The GT350R with 530 hp was only able to run 7:32 on the ring. A 997.2S does 7:30 on street tires. The 997.2 GT3/RS are only going be be that much faster too.

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

Again, saying "more mid engined" was just a way of saying it moved forward by three inches. We all seem to be getting stuck on semantics when we all know what happened.
Ok so of all the cars out there one that has 505 hp (and was pretty underated too) and weighed 3100 lbs is still slower (despite a better power to weight ratio).
You just helped to make my point in showing that for what Porsche offers nothing really is coming close. Even the zr1 was only able to manage just slightly below 7:20 even though it has 640/640 hp/tq. Again just a testament to the absurdly fast times the GT3 and RS lay down.
The GT350R with 530 hp was only able to run 7:32 on the ring. A 997.2S does 7:30 on street tires. The 997.2 GT3/RS are only going be be that much faster too.

Got a little lost in the comments but I think its only fair to compare times by the latest iteration of the C6, the Z06 with Z07 package (i'm NOT referring to the latest stingray either) which has a record for being one of the best track C6 corvettes made. From what I remember it ran a 7:22 which is 3 seconds off the pace of the zr1 and like everyone is saying, with 140 less horsepower. This trumps any porsche time i have been able to find besides the 918.

Also, the GT350R does not have an official time. Speculation is frowned upon.


My opinion on the thread topic, I think it will be the ACR, then Z06, then GT3RS all clumped together within tenths of a second. To the point where you could even argue a change of head wind caused the winner to be who it is. ACR is a fully functioning race car and should be treated as one. It is NOT a crime to drive it on the street however it IS a crime to NOT drive it on the track.

The z06 is a bit unpredictable. As long as it comes prepared I feel that it will take the GT3RS. However there is a chance of some ridiculous mixup causing it to either not complete the competition or not complete the competition to its fullest potential. A finish like that will only continue to hurt the corvettes image which is currently in rough shape as is.

Finally, the GT3RS clearly has the most sophistication to it so for a buyer who wants exclusivity and no cut corners, this is the pick no matter what the lap time. However, I remember reading a couple of articles faulting the huge rear wing as giving the car to much rear downforce offsetting the balance. I don't think it will be able to win unless Porsche came up with a solution to this (which really seems pretty simple, add some more downforce to the front). But if it does, then my predictions can be wrong.

Really looking forward to the article as a whole! At the end of the day, Corvette is the best bargain, Viper is the best track toy, Porsche is the classiest. Way it has been and always will be.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Got a little lost in the comments but I think its only fair to compare times by the latest iteration of the C6, the Z06 with Z07 package (i'm NOT referring to the latest stingray either) which has a record for being one of the best track C6 corvettes made. From what I remember it ran a 7:22 which is 3 seconds off the pace of the zr1 and like everyone is saying, with 140 less horsepower. This trumps any porsche time i have been able to find besides the 918.

Also, the GT350R does not have an official time. Speculation is frowned upon.


My opinion on the thread topic, I think it will be the ACR, then Z06, then GT3RS all clumped together within tenths of a second. To the point where you could even argue a change of head wind caused the winner to be who it is. ACR is a fully functioning race car and should be treated as one. It is NOT a crime to drive it on the street however it IS a crime to NOT drive it on the track.

The z06 is a bit unpredictable. As long as it comes prepared I feel that it will take the GT3RS. However there is a chance of some ridiculous mixup causing it to either not complete the competition or not complete the competition to its fullest potential. A finish like that will only continue to hurt the corvettes image which is currently in rough shape as is.

Finally, the GT3RS clearly has the most sophistication to it so for a buyer who wants exclusivity and no cut corners, this is the pick no matter what the lap time. However, I remember reading a couple of articles faulting the huge rear wing as giving the car to much rear downforce offsetting the balance. I don't think it will be able to win unless Porsche came up with a solution to this (which really seems pretty simple, add some more downforce to the front). But if it does, then my predictions can be wrong.

Really looking forward to the article as a whole! At the end of the day, Corvette is the best bargain, Viper is the best track toy, Porsche is the classiest. Way it has been and always will be.

New GT3 RS is 7:20. I find it hard when you generally never find cars of the same power to weight.
I do believe the old GT2 RS did 7:18.

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

New GT3 RS is 7:20. I find it hard when you generally never find cars of the same power to weight.
I do believe the old GT2 RS did 7:18.

Any idea when the article is being released?

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Any idea when the article is being released?

No idea. If not December id imagine the Jan issue.

[auf Deutsch]

Well, it's a MT comparo so the Z06 has already won.

[AW335TT]

Can you post the videos of the laps?

Curious how the RS posted that when the ring has speed limits.

[chillindrdude]

I am guessing you follow speed limits ALL the time

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

New GT3 RS is 7:20. I find it hard when you generally never find cars of the same power to weight.
I do believe the old GT2 RS did 7:18.

I find it interesting though that the previous generation of corvette z06 with only 505 horsepower and a lighter curb weight (similar to that of the gt3 rs) was only 2 seconds slower on a 7 + minute lap. Considering the generation gap between them.

GT2 is in ZR1 league generation and horsepower wise which makes the lap times so comparable (that is except for cost).

I really have no doubt the C7 z06 will do extremely well and surprise people as long as it is performing in top shape. Theres no room for alignment or heat issues.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by pgviper

I find it interesting though that the previous generation of corvette z06 with only 505 horsepower and a lighter curb weight (similar to that of the gt3 rs) was only 2 seconds slower on a 7 + minute lap. Considering the generation gap between them.

GT2 is in ZR1 league generation and horsepower wise which makes the lap times so comparable (that is except for cost).

I really have no doubt the C7 z06 will do extremely well and surprise people as long as it is performing in top shape. Theres no room for alignment or heat issues.

C6 z06 was I believe lighter in real world and certainly was a bit underrated. Also keep in mind it was the c6 z06 with z07 package that ran that time, so def turned up a bit.l, not your reg z06.
The new z06 is certainly capable of good lap times. A friend of mine just got one and it's a mighty powerful car with loads of grip.

For comparison sake with the reg z06 look at how much faster the RS is on every other track. These are flat out absurd margins.

Times (5)
Corvette Z06 911 GT3 RS
Hockenheim GP 1:57.90 1:50.78
Autozeitung test track 1:39.40 1:32.50
Nürburgring Nordschleife 7:42.90 7:20.00
Hockenheim Short 1:11.50 1:08.50
Balocco 2:50.30 2:45.78

If you look at the plain z06 without the z07 package I'm assuming the RS beats it by 23 seconds. 3 seconds on hockenheim, and 7 second gap in multiple other tracks. Two cars with nearly identical power to weight based on manuf claims yet you'd think the RS had 250 more hp based on these times.

So it's quite clear that no matter how you slice it, the RS cannot be matched for its power to weight by a regular z06 and even with a track package it's still behind by 3 seconds. And by matched I do mean nearly identical times (gap is <.5 secs)

[RM7]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

C6 z06 was I believe lighter in real world and certainly was a bit underrated. Also keep in mind it was the c6 z06 with z07 package that ran that time, so def turned up a bit.l, not your reg z06.
The new z06 is certainly capable of good lap times. A friend of mine just got one and it's a mighty powerful car with loads of grip.

For comparison sake with the reg z06 look at how much faster the RS is on every other track. These are flat out absurd margins.

Times (5)
Corvette Z06 911 GT3 RS
Hockenheim GP 1:57.90 1:50.78
Autozeitung test track 1:39.40 1:32.50
Nürburgring Nordschleife 7:42.90 7:20.00
Hockenheim Short 1:11.50 1:08.50
Balocco 2:50.30 2:45.78

If you look at the plain z06 without the z07 package I'm assuming the RS beats it by 23 seconds. 3 seconds on hockenheim, and 7 second gap in multiple other tracks. Two cars with nearly identical power to weight based on manuf claims yet you'd think the RS had 250 more hp based on these times.

So it's quite clear that no matter how you slice it, the RS cannot be matched for its power to weight by a regular z06 and even with a track package it's still behind by 3 seconds. And by matched I do mean nearly identical times (gap is <.5 secs)

Well, keep in mind that's not your run of the mill GT3, it's an RS, so it's def turned up a bit. I'm certain those porsche's are a bit underrated.