air france airbus vanishes over the atlantic

[Blake]

PARIS, France (CNN) -- An Air France plane feared to have crashed in the Atlantic with 228 people aboard reported electrical problems in stormy weather before it lost contact, the airline said Monday, describing the loss as a "catastrophe."

Officials said the Airbus A330-200 sent automated messages of electrical failure and pressure loss as it hit turbulence, vanishing from the radar early in its flight from Rio de Janeiro to Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris.

Brazil and France have scrambled search and rescue aircraft on both sides of the Atlantic, but with a vast area to scour, there were dwindling hopes of finding survivors.

France's President Nicolas Sarkozy expressed his "very deep concern" over the loss of flight AF447. Sarkozy was reported to be heading to Charles de Gaulle where a crisis center has been set up for grieving relatives.

The loss of a relatively new model of one of the aviation sector's most reliable and state-of-the-art aircraft has stunned analysts who say it would take extremely violent weather to bring down such a large jet.

Former Airbus pilot John Wiley told CNN that speculation lightning had brought down the plane was likely to prove unfounded since most modern passenger aircraft were capable of withstanding direct strikes.

The last known contact with the plane -- carrying 126 men, 82 women, seven children and a baby, plus the crew -- was at 1:33 GMT Monday (8:33 p.m. Sunday ET), according to the Brazilian Air Force.

Brazil says it has launched two air force squadrons to hunt near the archipelago of Fernando de Noronha in the Atlantic Ocean, 365 kilometers (226 miles) from its coast, although the plane vanished outside the country's radar coverage.

The Air Force said the jet was last logged flying at an altitude of 10,600 meters (35,000 feet) before contact was lost. When the plane failed to make further contact, Brazilian air controllers contacted their counterparts in Senegal.

France's ambassador to Senegal told CNN affiliate BFMTV that French military aircraft had been dispatched to search the west African country's coast.

Air France has set up a hotline in connection with the incident: 0800 800 812 in France, or +33 157021055 for international callers.

Th airline's CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon told a news conference: "I can say without doubt that this is a catastrophe." He said: "The entire Air France company and its staff are very moved and affected by this."

Air France has also set up a hotline: 0800 800 812 in France, or +33 157021055 for international callers.

Airbus has opened a crisis room and their flight safety team is in place, a company spokesperson told CNN. Airbus is working closely with authorities and Air France, he said, declining to comment further.

Time line
2230 GMT Sunday Flight AF447 takes off from Rio's Airport do Galeao
0133 GMT Monday Plane makes last contact with Brazilian air traffic control
0148 GMT Plane disappears from radar
0220 GMT Plane fails to make scheduled radio contact
0530 GMT Brazilian Air Force launches search
0910 GMT Plane fails to make scheduled landing in Paris
Source: Brazilian Air Force

Gourgeon said the aircraft involved was a new Airbus piloted by a "particularly experienced crew."

Analyst Kieran Daly of online aviation news service Air Transport Intelligence told CNN that the lack of communication with the aircraft "does suggest it was something serious and catastrophic."Video Watch aviation expert describe possible scenarios »

"It is an extremely young fleet by aviation standards," he said. "The A330 is state-of-the-art with extremely reliable engines made by General Electric."

CNN air travel expert Richard Quest says the twin-engine plane, a stalwart of transatlantic routes, has an impeccable safety record, with only one fatal incident involving a training flight in 1994.

"It has very good range, and is extremely popular with airlines because of its versatility," he said.

Airbus said the aircraft involved in the incident had totaled 18,870 flight hours since entering service in 18 April 2005. Its last maintenance check in the hangar took place on 16 April 2009.

must have been a crazy storm.

[jeremyc74]

Just awful.

I've been flying regularly for about 15 years, but I'm more nervous these days than ever.

[ejazbmw]

yeah i just read this on yahoo, feel bad for them and their families

[Blake]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I'm more nervous these days than ever.

why's that?

[SlikM]

awful, i cant see any chance that the are ok after the numerous articles i have read from online newspapers across the world (although most talk about the same thing)

[Bols]

Just heard this on the radio, damn , no survivors at all probably ...

Makes me wonder what it was doing in the storm tho, don't they usually see these coming ?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Blake

why's that?

Cost cutting. The airlines are all trying to save a buck, and I just don't have a lot of faith in what they're doing. I fly a LOT of regional trips, and I seriously question the skill of the pilots sometimes, as well as the maintanence.

For example, I was on a flight a few months ago, and the guy dropped the landing gear nearly 20 minutes before we hit the ground. We weren't even close to being on approach when he did it.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Bols

Makes me wonder what it was doing in the storm tho, don't they usually see these coming ?

most commercial planes have onboard weather radar, and they do know the storm is there. in the end, it's up to the pilot-in-command to make the call to continue or not. he has to make the decision based on several factors including fuel, how severe the situation is based on information he's got, airline policies, and the safety of all onboard. he obviously didn't think anything was too bad so he continued. whatever happened up there happened quickly and it's doubtful that there could have been anything done to save the plane.

[Bols]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Cost cutting. The airlines are all trying to save a buck, and I just don't have a lot of faith in what they're doing. I fly a LOT of regional trips, and I seriously question the skill of the pilots sometimes, as well as the maintanence.

For example, I was on a flight a few months ago, and the guy dropped the landing gear nearly 20 minutes before we hit the ground. We weren't even close to being on approach when he did it.

Ooh don't forget that forgetting to take the tape of the sensors under pilot's windows after washing makes all avionics go crazy and makes you clash zeh plane ! Not that i want to worry you

Originally Posted by Blake

most commercial planes have onboard weather radar, and they do know the storm is there. in the end, it's up to the pilot-in-command to make the call to continue or not. he has to make the decision based on several factors including fuel, how severe the situation is based on information he's got, airline policies, and the safety of all onboard. he obviously didn't think anything was too bad so he continued. whatever happened up there happened quickly and it's doubtful that there could have been anything done to save the plane.

Yea it must have gone really wrong really fast. Specially cause these planes are supposed to be able to withstand being hit by lightning and all

[Blake]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Cost cutting. The airlines are all trying to save a buck, and I just don't have a lot of faith in what they're doing. I fly a LOT of regional trips, and I seriously question the skill of the pilots sometimes, as well as the maintanence.

For example, I was on a flight a few months ago, and the guy dropped the landing gear nearly 20 minutes before we hit the ground. We weren't even close to being on approach when he did it.

well i won't argue your logic regarding regional airlines. i have many acquaintances from flight school that i would never personally allow to fly me that now fly for regionals. colgan has had some heat lately due to the accident in buffalo, and they deserve it because they hire just about anyone. but pertaining to this specific flight, i just hope it isn't a mechanical/maintenance issue that ultimately caused the plane to break up. the airline industry has had some serious blows lately and they don't need anymore right now.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Bols

Ooh don't forget that forgetting to take the tape of the sensors under pilot's windows after washing makes all avionics go crazy and makes you clash zeh plane ! Not that i want to worry you

that particular accident you're talking about was an aeroperu 757 that was being washed and waxed by ground crews and the static ports were taped over. the static ports are critical for accurate readings for airspeed, altitude, vertical speed indications. once the static port is blocked, you won't necessarily get false readings right away, but eventually you will.

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Cost cutting. The airlines are all trying to save a buck, and I just don't have a lot of faith in what they're doing. I fly a LOT of regional trips, and I seriously question the skill of the pilots sometimes, as well as the maintanence.

For example, I was on a flight a few months ago, and the guy dropped the landing gear nearly 20 minutes before we hit the ground. We weren't even close to being on approach when he did it.

if airlines are cost cutting....the pilots would drop the landing gear the last possible momenty they could to reduce drag, thus spend less fuel....

he dropped it 20 somewhat minutes before touch down might be required to reduce speed further requsted by ATC....spoilers can do the trick too...but it will increast its race of descent....

[E90SLAM]

Map from BBC...

[Blake]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

Map from BBC...

that search area is massive and in very deep waters. i'll be surprised if they ever find the plane. if a navy or spotter plane doesn't find floating debris soon, it's going to be a long search.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

if airlines are cost cutting....the pilots would drop the landing gear the last possible momenty they could to reduce drag, thus spend less fuel....

he dropped it 20 somewhat minutes before touch down might be required to reduce speed further requsted by ATC....spoilers can do the trick too...but it will increast its race of descent....

Or more likely the guy just screwed up. It was coming into Evansville, so it's not like there's a lot of traffic to deal with that would require him to get in line. They have like four flights an hour or something.

Besides, it was just an example. The fact that they're cutting corners is very well known, and there's been a lot of talk latley about the experience level of regional pilots.

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by Blake

that search area is massive and in very deep waters. i'll be surprised if they ever find the plane. if a navy or spotter plane doesn't find floating debris soon, it's going to be a long search.

if the plane shattered...they might find bits and pieces floating to coast...but that not until couple months later....

it'll be even harder to search for the CVR and FDR, given them has only 30 days to send beacon signal for SAR teams...

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Blake

well i won't argue your logic regarding regional airlines. i have many acquaintances from flight school that i would never personally allow to fly me that now fly for regionals. colgan has had some heat lately due to the accident in buffalo, and they deserve it because they hire just about anyone. but pertaining to this specific flight, i just hope it isn't a mechanical/maintenance issue that ultimately caused the plane to break up. the airline industry has had some serious blows lately and they don't need anymore right now.

I would almost rather see it turn out to be mechanical failure, rather than just a feak accident caused by the weather. The mechanical failure can be fixed, the other can't. Same goes for pilot training.

I'm hoping we see some tightening of the standards for commercial Pilots because of the recent accidents.

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Or more likely the guy just screwed up. It was coming into Evansville, so it's not like there's a lot of traffic to deal with that would require him to get in line. They have like four flights an hour or something.

Besides, it was just an example. The fact that they're cutting corners is very well known, and there's been a lot of talk latley about the experience level of regional pilots.

i'm not surprised after the crash of Continental Dash8-400 at BUF...but some are media blowing smoke to the publics...



but AFAIK, mainline pilots and regional pilots receives the same training then off to type specific...which one scares you more? a regional pilot with 20+ years experience, or mainline cadets (which most asian and middle-east airlines do) with only 2-5 years experience flying a 747?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

i'm not surprised after the crash of Continental Dash8-400 at BUF...
but AFAIK, mainline pilots and regional pilots receives the same training then off to type specific...which one scares you more? a regional pilot with 20+ years experience, or mainline cadets (which most asian and middle-east airlines do) with only 2-5 years experience flying a 747?

I see VERY few regional pilots that are old enough to have 20 years experience driving, let alone flying.

Honestly, they all scare me these days. I don't do a lot of internation travel right now, and I'm glad. I used to go to UAE twice a month sometimes, and I don't miss those trips at all.

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I see VERY few regional pilots that are old enough to have 20 years experience driving, let alone flying.

Honestly, they all scare me these days. I don't do a lot of internation travel right now, and I'm glad. I used to go to UAE twice a month sometimes, and I don't miss those trips at all.

probably most of them hate the job enough to quit...

it sucks that you kind of have the feeling that most accidents are preventable....the chain of mistakes just happens to lined up....one single person caught the error and everything would be ok....or prevent the scenerio to get wrose...

there's so much "whys?" need to be find out...

[1013mm]

episode 1 season 1 of LOST

[Blake]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

but AFAIK, mainline pilots and regional pilots receives the same training then off to type specific...which one scares you more? a regional pilot with 20+ years experience, or mainline cadets (which most asian and middle-east airlines do) with only 2-5 years experience flying a 747?

well the training is essentially the same, but the only variable is the pilot him/herself. one can be taught to do anything naturally, but i will not disagree that experience in invaluable. any pilot with basic understanding of the type aircraft can fly virtually any airplane with a checklist and a list of V speeds, but you can't replace experience in emergency situations.