"EV poverty & why we should be concerned"

[DB_Cooper]

Another good video by JayEmm

[Arcades]

He... is about months behind. Bloomberg and other websites/articles have written about this months before.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-u-s-consumers

It sucks but it is what it is. If you are too lazy to click on it, dated March 18th, 2022.

[DB_Cooper]

Originally Posted by Arcades

He... is about months behind. Bloomberg and other websites/articles have written about this months before.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-u-s-consumers

It sucks but it is what it is. If you are too lazy to click on it, dated March 18th, 2022.

Yeah I know it’s been a talking point for awhile. The video was posted to highlight these ongoing issues regarding premature EV adoption not to say it’s a novel argument.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by DB_Cooper

Yeah I know it’s been a talking point for awhile. The video was posted to highlight these ongoing issues regarding premature EV adoption not to say it’s a novel argument.

If most people paid attention (including the government around the world) they would know it is already a problem.

They are causing another issue down the line but hey, most of them care about short term solutions. As if mining aggressively for lithium is suddenly better than oil.

[2023G87M2]

Originally Posted by DB_Cooper

Another good video by JayEmm

Let's not forget even cheap ev's, require charging..most people don't have fast chargers or don't even know they have the potential for 240 volts (in the US it's possible with washing machine outlets), but also, soooo many people live in apartments and there's NO way to charge their cars. If they have to pay for a tesla supercharger or other chargers that LASTS WAY longer than gas, then what's the point? Not to mention a full charge even at their home costs how much would someone tell me? $10 or $20 or $30?? In the US/uk/euro countries?

I really wanted to.beliebe in full electric. But I think a hybrid solution with hydrogen cars is best. Hydrogen is cheap and readily available. It's maybe not as cheap as extracting fossil fuel but it's a price to pay because it's clean and renewable forever on earth, and quick to fill up

[2023G87M2]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The problem with EV is the cost of manufacturing the battery. The $/kWh has come down the cost curve and started to flatten out at $150/kWh. To get 300+miles of range requires a 75kWh battery. Either the next new tech has to double in energy density, or the cost has to be cut in half from today's level. That's not going to happen in 12 years, if ever.

To add to EV cost eventually will be owner responsibility for battery recycling. Governments are going to figure out the cost of toxic-free battery recycling and pass it on to the consumer either at the front end of ownership or at the back end. Putting it on the back end will kill the EV used car market, so the battery recycling cost will be built into the sale price (probably as a tax).

Atm, batteries are UNLIKELY to become more efficient. These solid state battery announcements so far are nothing but hype. Teslas solution to more range is making the battery bigger. That's it. Otherwise efficiency hasn't changed and has peaked already. For centuries now battery technology has only gotten us to this point. It's difficult. That's why a hydrogen electric solution is far better especially those without a driveway/garage/home

[wdb]

Originally Posted by Arcades

He... is about months behind. Bloomberg and other websites/articles have written about this months before.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-u-s-consumers

It sucks but it is what it is. If you are too lazy to click on it, dated March 18th, 2022.

Paywall. Give me a tl;dr please?

[Murf the Surf]

Here's a great article.......70F and 16MPH is the sweet spot to actually hit the reported range of EV's. It seems that speed and cold reduces EV battery range by 50%.....all of them. The author has been an automotive journalist for decades and is also and electrical engineer.

https://driving.ca/column/motor-mout...HsL_NOlF8VGxP8

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

another ev thread


this is what happens when you close the politics section lol

quite the workaround folks haha

[lens]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Here's a great article.......70F and 16MPH is the sweet spot to actually hit the reported range of EV's. It seems that speed and cold reduces EV battery range by 50%.....all of them. The author has been an automotive journalist for decades and is also and electrical engineer.

https://driving.ca/column/motor-mout...HsL_NOlF8VGxP8

People also forget about the cold very often.

EV will work in areas that don't get harsh winters, so California, Florida, BC, NS.

But you go to Quebec or Ontario or even Alberta where temperatures can range from -10C to -40C constant with a ton of ice and snow, and you're going to get issues.

I know some people say "Well, just get the charger installed in the garage and keep it plugged in outside"

Charging becomes super inefficient the colder it is, instead of sitting there for 15-30 mins to get a full charge or 75% charge, you may sit there 3x longer.


I feel hybrid is the future, not EV, due to temperature and weather, at least with hybrid, it gives you an ICE as your secondary power source.

[Cos270]

Was wondering if this would get posted here haha. At this point, if anyone seriously believes this EV transition is anything other than another step on the path to the greatest wealth transfer in history, I'm not sure what to tell them. Folks at the WEF and similar organizations are chomping at the bit to get people to adopt these new technologies. I recommend people do some reading/listening on these topics (Whitney Webb and Peter Zeihan are good places to start).

[lens]

Originally Posted by Cos270

Was wondering if this would get posted here haha. At this point, if anyone seriously believes this EV transition is anything other than another than another step on the path down the greatest wealth transfer in history, I'm not sure what to tell them. Folks at the WEF and similar organizations are chomping at the bit to get people to adopt these new technologies. I recommend people do some reading/listening on these topics (Whitney Webb and Peter Zeihan are good places to start).

Exactly.

Wait till we move from oil to electricity, and the companies will charge out the ass per KWH of charging instead of gas.

One full charge will be equal to one full tank of gas instead.

But people are more happy to know they're more "environmentally" efficient. Biggest scam I've seen is companies passing down the carbon cost, and making consumers feel guility for their "carbon footprint"

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by lens

Exactly.

Wait till we move from oil to electricity, and the companies will charge out the ass per KWH of charging instead of gas.

One full charge will be equal to one full tank of gas instead.

But people are more happy to know they're more "environmentally" efficient. Biggest scam I've seen is companies passing down the carbon cost, and making consumers feel guility for their "carbon footprint"

The bigger scam is how companies can be in compliance yet still pollute like crazy by buying carbon credits. There are whole markets set up for this practice.

[gonzo]

The Green Church and it's following are relentless.


On the other hand...

"Nature doesn’t give us a stable, safe climate that we make dangerous. It gives us an ever-changing, dangerous climate that we need to make safe. And the driver behind sturdy buildings, affordable heating and air-conditioning, drought relief, and everything else that keeps us safe from climate is cheap, plentiful, reliable energy, overwhelmingly from fossil fuels"

Alex Epstein

[LogicalApex]

EVs are here to stay and will be the future with no real way to unring the bell. There are some near term challenges that are being worked on and the jury is still out on if they’ll be solved (such as charging in shard living environments as well as battery recycling to name a couple). But EVs are currently much cheaper to charge than gas is to fuel. For my PHEV charging at home is less than 1/3rd the cost of a gallon of fuel (and I get more than 1 gallon of fuel equiv for a full EV charge).

EVs are shifting cars to “always on” and that’s a trend that consumers are demanding more of as they expect things to always be connected now. So you can heat/cool the car as needed without being in it, send destinations, check basic satuses for stuff like closed windows and doors. That’s today. Tomorrow becomes cars able to help you find a spot more efficiently by letting you know the car in front just left in a crowded downtown area and other new features I’m not currently creative enough to envision.

It is OK to say “I can’t picture a future different than the one I know” as that’s the realtity for most people. They cling to what they know because seeing a different world that doesn’t yet exist is too hard.

It made no sense that people would pay insane amounts of money for phones in their pockets that didn’t even have basic features work users were thought to have neeeded. It also made no sense that people would upgrade those devices annually when people kept cell phones until they broke as they were basic “appliances”. Yet here we are. Most people own a smartphone in the developed world and they are changed much more frequently on average than “when they are broken”.

EVs will continue to bring some game changing realities for consumers and will be increasingly sought after and eventually you may see the future once it is more clearly in view as the current norm. I’ll admit though, there are still some who think flip phones were the correct reality and that eventually the smartphone bubble will burst and we’ll all be back there… In 2002 paying for “minutes”, “text messages”, and “megabytes”. The way god intended.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

EVs are here to stay and will be the future with no real way to unring the bell. There are some near term challenges that are being worked on and the jury is still out on if they’ll be solved (such as charging in shard living environments as well as battery recycling to name a couple). But EVs are currently much cheaper to charge than gas is to fuel. For my PHEV charging at home is less than 1/3rd the cost of a gallon of fuel (and I get more than 1 gallon of fuel equiv for a full EV charge).

EVs are shifting cars to “always on” and that’s a trend that consumers are demanding more of as they expect things to always be connected now. So you can heat/cool the car as needed without being in it, send destinations, check basic satuses for stuff like closed windows and doors. That’s today. Tomorrow becomes cars able to help you find a spot more efficiently by letting you know the car in front just left in a crowded downtown area and other new features I’m not currently creative enough to envision.

It is OK to say “I can’t picture a future different than the one I know” as that’s the realtity for most people. They cling to what they know because seeing a different world that doesn’t yet exist is too hard.

It made no sense that people would pay insane amounts of money for phones in their pockets that didn’t even have basic features work users were thought to have neeeded. It also made no sense that people would upgrade those devices annually when people kept cell phones until they broke as they were basic “appliances”. Yet here we are. Most people own a smartphone in the developed world and they are changed much more frequently on average than “when they are broken”.

EVs will continue to bring some game changing realities for consumers and will be increasingly sought after and eventually you may see the future once it is more clearly in view as the current norm. I’ll admit though, there are still some who think flip phones were the correct reality and that eventually the smartphone bubble will burst and we’ll all be back there… In 2002 paying for “minutes”, “text messages”, and “megabytes”. The way god intended.

I don't know if EV's will be the end game but what I do know is that governments are setting the timelines and I have never seen any government project on time or on budget. I am pretty certain ICE isn't going anywhere in my lifetime.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

I don't know if EV's will be the end game but what I do know is that governments are setting the timelines and I have never seen any government project on time or on budget. I am pretty certain ICE isn't going anywhere in my lifetime.

ICE will be around at least another hundred years or more. The dominant “EVs” in the US will be high capacity PHEVs for a long time I am sure. Possibly forever depending on the solutions to some of the remaining roadblocks.

Existing cars will also stick around.

[Donatello.]

ALL new cars have been out of control price wise for years. Just keeps getting worse. At what point does it change? When no one can get to work?!

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

ALL new cars have been out of control price wise for years. Just keeps getting worse. At what point does it change? When no one can get to work?!

Exactly, look at housing.

[lens]

Originally Posted by RM7

Exactly, look at housing.

TBH, US housing isn't as bad as Canada.

You guys can mortgage for 25 years and lock in basically.

In Canada, terms are 5 years max, and houses are like 300% more expensive than they should be, and our interest rates are uber high to counter inflation as too many people amassed wealth during covid and are just buying houses as an investment to resell.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Electric cars are not cell phones. The product cycle of the cell phone and EV are entirely different. It is a completely stupid tech analogy. When the cell phone is plugged in to recharge, it is still usable. When an EV is plugged in to recharge, it is not usable; even children understand this concept.

It isn’t a stupid tech analogy as cars and cell phones are quickly converging. It is no surprise that more and more cars are running Android Automotive, including the new BMW cars with iDrive 9...

You’re also proving my point about the old way of viewing cars and seeing a future. The always on nature of cars enabled by a shift to electric drivetrains shifts the reality quite a lot. In the “old days” a car was only useful when you were driving from point A to point B. So the older you are the only way you can envision cars is via that lens. You’re likely to see all of the tech as useless as it doesn’t do almost anything for optimize that. Just like for the longest time a cell phone was a tool for making and receiving calls and seeing a future where people rarely used them for that didn’t make a lot of sense.

The shift and revolution here is that cars are going to shift to consumer level products just like cell phones and that will bring some radical shifts. Always on will mean that the car does a lot of “syncing” while “off” and is “ready instantly” just as consumers now expect. No waiting for traffic to load for minutes as the car boots up or destinations to load or maps load and be ready… Want to use BMW navigation or replace it entirely with some third party app that gives a very native feel… Want to tie your car into your home automations so it locks your house doors, arms your alarm, and closes the garage door as your drive away… Want to use that massive screen for movies during your road trips at stops… etc etc etc.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You really need to stop assuming things about people who challenge your position on the future. I just spent the last 15 years of my career implementing new technology as part of the FAA's NextGen Initiative. Before that I spent 5 years implementing ship automation control systems. Giant systems engineering and integration efforts that have vastly improved sailor's and the flying public's daily lives. I was working in cloud computing environments before the coined the term "Cloud". I'm seriously far from being a Luddite. Lol.

Your Tech Goggles are so fogged over, you are missing my point entirely. The crap you are talking about are peripheral apps to two different platforms. Sure there are tech geeks who think it's cool they can program their car to lock the house and turndown the thermostat love the integration. The people who live in an apartment in a 30 year old building who lock one door when they leave, could give a rat's ass. Those are the same folks who can't afford EV.

I am not challenging you on your credentials, at least that wasn’t my intention. I was challenging you on your vision of the future. Even with a tech background that we both share seeing a future that doesn’t logically make sense to us can be challenging.

I’m also in tech and am far far from a Luddite as well. If you took me back to 2007 with the launch of the iPhone I also thought it made no sense. I had a PDA and had them for years and couldn’t understand how a phone without a hardware keyboard even made sense, period. Not to mention the other long list of “missing must haves” that you needed to justify the price point. It took a few years for the picture to be painted for the fog to clear and I was able to go “oh wow I see the value proposition here”.

My point is cars are in that same fog. Right now, the historical vision is Point A to Point B and the “tech” seems to be wasteful additions that don’t really offer a lot of value. Even the smart home stuff I mentioned you can say “sounds cool, but few people have smart homes and fewer people care” and that would be true today. The same can be said for what I mentioned about maps “sounds cool, but people can just use CarPlay or Android Auto and call it a day” and that also would be true. I don’t have a fully painted picture yet of what the value proposition. I can just see it on the horizon.

5G is shifting communication access in cars to being always on, fast, and cheap such that cars can transmit and receive large amounts of data easily and in a connected fashion. EVs being on an always on platform allows the car to leverage its large number of sensors and vast computing power even when “off”…

Right now, we’re nibbling around the edges where we are going to leverage all of this technology for infotainment purposes. I see this as only the start though. Where we will likely end up in a future where cars are able to support “apps” and third party code in a deep and safe manner so we can move to a level where cars will self report pot holes to other cars and towns. Where parking access will be more readily communicated and shared. So forth and so on.

So, I’m not challenging your tech knowledge or credentials, but reminding you that seeing a future that has yet to exist is challenging even more so for those of us who are aware of the challenges to some of those futures. And that challenge isn’t personal. Nor do I assume your alternative viewpoint, which disagrees with me, are personal. Even though you used “stupid” to dismiss my discussion which is generally a personal attack…