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      10-29-2020, 08:45 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
I've said before that the logical progression would be as follows...

First automated trains. This is the easiest to accomplish.

Next automated sea vessels. Big, wide open spaces.... plus we already use Harbor Pilots to handle the last mile(s).

After we gain confidence with the reliability and safety of trains and ships, we start automating inner-city busses. At least these vehicles run a very defined route, but dealing with weather conditions alone will present a major challenge.

THEN we start attempting to automate 'free range' cars, trucks, and busses. These present all the challenges as above, plus they don't stick to pre-defined routes. They also have to navigate private roads and surfaces like parking lots and driveways.

Seems stupid to attempt the most challenging automation first.
Agree that trains are simplest to automate, but the value proposition isnt here. You get to eliminate the job of a train conductor per train, theres little money savings. Often the trains are municipal so they aren't governed by the same capitalistic principles anyway. Driverless cars has a huge perceived value, the dream (possibly pipe dream) that you can sleep in your car while it drives you to work or to leisure. Provided of course that you trust it enough to sleep soundly. Further, if it can be actually safer it can save you money on insurance. Finally its really cool. Add these things up and it translates to people being will to spend hundreds if not thousands once per car or even as a subscription. Tesla has been able to charge 8k for this feature prior to it even existing, and they plan to boost it to 10k. In a value proposition world, self driving cars are miles ahead of self driving trains
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      10-29-2020, 08:48 PM   #68
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If it goes wrong and there's a smash then who's at fault. There have been two Tesla self drive deaths already?
I dont believe tesla was found legally at fault in any of the crashes involving autopilot. That said it's possible that they had to settle in some lawsuits with NDAs. Uber was not found at fault for the death caused in accident with its self driving taxi test program
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      10-30-2020, 05:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
I dont believe tesla was found legally at fault in any of the crashes involving autopilot. That said it's possible that they had to settle in some lawsuits with NDAs. Uber was not found at fault for the death caused in accident with its self driving taxi test program
Was that the one in Arizona where the test driver wasn't paying attention and the vehicle's sensors didn't pick up the homeless lady walking her bicycle across the multi-lane street at night?
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      10-30-2020, 08:27 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
I dont believe tesla was found legally at fault in any of the crashes involving autopilot. That said it's possible that they had to settle in some lawsuits with NDAs. Uber was not found at fault for the death caused in accident with its self driving taxi test program
Was that the one in Arizona where the test driver wasn't paying attention and the vehicle's sensors didn't pick up the homeless lady walking her bicycle across the multi-lane street at night?
Yes, the driver was found at fault
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      10-30-2020, 08:32 AM   #71
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Which proves my point. It's not self driving if you need to pay attention, the moment you need a person to pay any sort of attention the technology is not only useless but worse than the current state as lulls a false sense of security.

We are so far from this working it is hilarious.
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      10-30-2020, 08:38 AM   #72
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Which proves my point. It's not self driving if you need to pay attention, the moment you need a person to pay any sort of attention the technology is not only useless but worse than the current state as lulls a false sense of security.

We are so far from this working it is hilarious.
We are a very long way from autonomous vehicles despite what the fan boys might tell you.
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      10-30-2020, 08:39 AM   #73
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      10-30-2020, 08:40 AM   #74
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Reactions to tesla's beta

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/10...-public-roads/
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      10-30-2020, 08:42 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
The first two paragraphs of the article says it all for me:

Last week, Tesla released an early version of its long-awaited "full self-driving" software to a limited number of customers. It was arguably Tesla's biggest Autopilot update ever. The software enables Tesla vehicles to autonomously navigate the vast majority of common roadway situations and complete many trips from start to finish.

Tesla considers it to be beta software and says it's not intended for fully autonomous operation. Drivers are expected to keep their eyes on the road and hands on the wheel at all times.


This will take at least a decade.

Last edited by Murf993; 10-30-2020 at 09:29 AM..
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      10-30-2020, 09:04 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Which proves my point. It's not self driving if you need to pay attention, the moment you need a person to pay any sort of attention the technology is not only useless but worse than the current state as lulls a false sense of security.

We are so far from this working it is hilarious.
Exactly. Real autopilot in aircraft does not alleviate the pilot from flying the airplane. The pilot monitors the plane flight from the cockpit as do ANSPs who are not in the cockpit. Because of flight rules and mandatory distancing, there is time to correct for machine error. This is different for automobiles, where the "flight" environment is full of traffic and obstacles that are easily run into and difficult to avoid because traffic moves and remains nonstationary. There is virtually no time to correct for machine error. No one outside the cockpit is watching the car and can warn the pilot of a flight track error.

I equate the false sense of security perceived by Tesla's AutoPilot (or anyone's autopilot) to operating a dishwasher. No one watches their dishwasher wash the dishes. A dishwasher is a fully autonomous operation. FSD like AutoPilot (Tesla's official name) is not a fully autonomous operation, it has to be watched by the driver. Tesla instructs the driver he must watch the car drive while in AutoPilot. I would find that utterly boring and easily distract myself with other activities. Being that I actually care about my life, I'd rather apply my attention to actually controlling the vehicle rather than watch a computer attempt to drive the car.

I use a dishwasher to free my time from mundane tasks to focus my attention to other things, like entertaining dinner guests after dinner. If the dishwasher screws up, no one dies; I correct the problem and just start it over. If a person finds driving a mundane task, then they should hire someone to drive them around.

I'm just not in the camp of thought that autonomous driving is going to reduce accidents and fatalities if all other aspects of the current driving environment remain the same. That means no sperate lanes for autonomous vehicles, no reduction in average traffic speed, and no decrease in traffic volume.
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Last edited by Efthreeoh; 10-30-2020 at 10:34 AM..
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      10-30-2020, 09:08 AM   #77
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You have an awesome sense of humor.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      10-30-2020, 10:13 AM   #78
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It's literally easier to get to the moon.
Some people don't believe we went to the moon.
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      10-31-2020, 01:39 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Which proves my point. It's not self driving if you need to pay attention, the moment you need a person to pay any sort of attention the technology is not only useless but worse than the current state as lulls a false sense of security.

We are so far from this working it is hilarious.
Waymo? I said this 2x now.

Waymo is level 4 autonomy. It can operate in full self driving mode.
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      10-31-2020, 10:27 AM   #80
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Waymo? I said this 2x now.

Waymo is level 4 autonomy. It can operate in full self driving mode.
On a four lane freeway with 80 MPH speeds in the rain and under construction? I'd love to see that.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      10-31-2020, 03:08 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
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Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
Waymo? I said this 2x now.

Waymo is level 4 autonomy. It can operate in full self driving mode.
On a four lane freeway with 80 MPH speeds in the rain and under construction? I'd love to see that.
And not just in the roads that they have trained it on in California. I am all for baby steps, but lets not portray the Waymo solution as an all encompassing solution when its not there yet
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      10-31-2020, 09:15 PM   #82
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Tesla has pushed an update to its first beta. For now all beta users are required to keep a hand on the wheel (not sure if enforced or just an agreement)

https://teslamotorsclub.com/blog/202...ements-to-fsd/
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      11-01-2020, 05:11 PM   #83
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https://mashable.com/article/roborac...omous-driving/

Its operator error but still funny.
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      11-02-2020, 09:58 AM   #84
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
Waymo? I said this 2x now.

Waymo is level 4 autonomy. It can operate in full self driving mode.
On a four lane freeway with 80 MPH speeds in the rain and under construction? I'd love to see that.
There really are countless situations that will cause autonomy to fail miserably. Color me impressed when they can safely travel in the snow.
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      11-02-2020, 11:25 AM   #85
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https://mashable.com/article/roborac...omous-driving/

Its operator error but still funny.
The only robots I'll watch are the ones that beat the shit out of each other.
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      11-03-2020, 10:21 AM   #86
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There really are countless situations that will cause autonomy to fail miserably. Color me impressed when they can safely travel in the snow.
Workmate of mine is a Tesla Model 3 owner. Loves the company, loves the Musk story, serious tech head. I periodically keep up with him on the Autopilot advancements. 2 years ago, he said the Autopilot easily gave up on driving when the conditions were poor weather + road under construction. Those conditions challenge even good and heavily experienced drivers.

A concern I have is further babying our youngins, letting their fancy new EVs drive for them mostly, until the conditions worsen where the car just gives up and asks the human driver to take over. The human may be worse than the machine in some instances.

Just can't wait for this to "improve life". "Hey Dad, I was going to come over and see you, but the car didn't like the snow."

Lol.
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      11-03-2020, 01:21 PM   #87
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I was gonna come home from the bar earlier, but... see, already improving life. Cheers!
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      11-03-2020, 02:45 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
There really are countless situations that will cause autonomy to fail miserably. Color me impressed when they can safely travel in the snow.
Workmate of mine is a Tesla Model 3 owner. Loves the company, loves the Musk story, serious tech head. I periodically keep up with him on the Autopilot advancements. 2 years ago, he said the Autopilot easily gave up on driving when the conditions were poor weather + road under construction. Those conditions challenge even good and heavily experienced drivers.

A concern I have is further babying our youngins, letting their fancy new EVs drive for them mostly, until the conditions worsen where the car just gives up and asks the human driver to take over. The human may be worse than the machine in some instances.

Just can't wait for this to "improve life". "Hey Dad, I was going to come over and see you, but the car didn't like the snow."

Lol.
I also had a coworker that owned a model 3. He used the auto drive feature to fetch his car from its parking spot once and it drove straight into a small ditch. I am not making this up. The group decided that the camera system detected snow as a barrier and drove in the opposite direction. Not good.
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