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      09-19-2019, 07:56 AM   #67
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Understand. But a BMW board is for the most part not JoeSixpack USA. People on the average drive more when gas is cheaper (per mile). I know people who fall into this category.
Sure, but I drive the cheapest BMW out there and I bought it used.

It's not like I've got an M5 sitting next to my AMG E class in the garage of my 7500 sq foot house in the hills.
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      09-19-2019, 08:07 AM   #68
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Well, I don't live in California. So my tune would irrelevant to the discussion. Hell, we don't even do visual inspections in my state. I could go cat-less and almost certainly never get caught. I won't, but I easily could.

Further, does using a JB4 or a Dinan tune demonstrably create more emissions? Many times aftermarket tunes actually increase mileage.
Again/besides what is the percentage of CA cars that are tuned (.01%)? I'm guessing low enough to not even be a blip on the radar.

Grasping at straws...........
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      09-19-2019, 08:12 AM   #69
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I feel bad for people in CA, but many of the emissions regulations we have today are a result of CAFE standards pushing manufacturers to innovate. I'm reminded of this every time an older car (even from the 1990s) drives by and I can smell it for the next few miles.

The diesel emissions regulations are a nightmare though. Manufacturers are literally throwing shit at the wall hoping it works to pass the requirements and we end up with trucks that cost $90,000 and require $15,000 exhaust system replacements every few years. Many of these systems end up destroying the engine soon after warranty just because of their faulty design. Instead of California having super strict standards and other states having less, there should be more uniform standards across the country. It makes no sense that in one state you need to be able to breathe from the tailpipe and in a neighboring one you can blow black smoke for 50 miles making all the cars behind you disappear.
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      09-19-2019, 08:31 AM   #70
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Again/besides what is the percentage of CA cars that are tuned (.01%)? I'm guessing low enough to not even be a blip on the radar.

Grasping at straws...........

I agree. Plus, I still stand by my original statements in that California has every right to do whatever they want to do. Folks who disagree can either vote with their pencils during elections or they can vote with their wallets and move.

I don't live in California. As such, I could not care less what CA does with respect to emissions on vehicles.
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      09-19-2019, 08:59 AM   #71
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I don't live in California. As such, I could not care less what CA does with respect to emissions on vehicles.
You should it affects your wallet. They it's going bye bye
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      09-19-2019, 09:11 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post

I don't live in California. As such, I could not care less what CA does with respect to emissions on vehicles.
You should it affects your wallet. They it's going bye bye
You do know that for decades BMW's sold in California had some differences with regards to emissions equipment vs same models sold elsewhere in the US?

Exhibit A: BMW N51 vs N52.


In any case the waiver is codified in the Clean Air Act and there's no mechanism to withdraw a waiver.
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      09-19-2019, 09:24 AM   #73
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You should it affects your wallet. They it's going bye bye
I can go to any local Ford dealer and buy a Ford Fusion brand new for 17-18k. It is 50 state legal emission right now that gets nearly 40 MPG on the highway. I'm guessing with other advances in the next few years they will hit the CA targets at a reasonable cost. That is a nearly full size family sedan. If you want a smaller 4 door they can be had for even less. Show me a time wherever in the past that this is out of whack compared to because of emissions regulations etc.

If you wait three years you can get many 4 door US made cars for much cheaper that are also 50 state emission capable.

You guys are gonna pull a muscle you are grasping so hard at anything to make this sound like a lunatic fringe liberal thing.
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      09-19-2019, 09:28 AM   #74
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I can go to any local Ford dealer and buy a Ford Fusion brand new...
Not for long, unfortunately.

Too bad, the Focus, Fusion and Fiesta are all good cars.
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      09-19-2019, 09:33 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
I feel bad for people in CA, but many of the emissions regulations we have today are a result of CAFE standards pushing manufacturers to innovate. I'm reminded of this every time an older car (even from the 1990s) drives by and I can smell it for the next few miles.

The diesel emissions regulations are a nightmare though. Manufacturers are literally throwing shit at the wall hoping it works to pass the requirements and we end up with trucks that cost $90,000 and require $15,000 exhaust system replacements every few years. Many of these systems end up destroying the engine soon after warranty just because of their faulty design. Instead of California having super strict standards and other states having less, there should be more uniform standards across the country. It makes no sense that in one state you need to be able to breathe from the tailpipe and in a neighboring one you can blow black smoke for 50 miles making all the cars behind you disappear.
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I agree. Plus, I still stand by my original statements in that California has every right to do whatever they want to do. Folks who disagree can either vote with their pencils during elections or they can vote with their wallets and move.

I don't live in California. As such, I could not care less what CA does with respect to emissions on vehicles.
I'm generally for states rights over federal laws, but sometimes it does makes sense for a blanket federal statute.

But, here California is not the same as Wyoming, MN or Tennessee etc for that matter and have different needs due to their population and geography. I still go back to Cali every other year to visit family and I'm amazed at how the smog is creeping into areas and staying longer than I ever remember. Even with these stringent rules the pollution is still bad and increasing.

But, even those in Tennessee should care about the air quality standards if you care about the Smokies etc. All of that crap travels across the country and affects everyone/everywhere. I've actually read a decent amount about the affects on the Smokies and areas such as that from surrounding industry/auto pollution etc and it is sad.

Yes, I'm a hypocrite as I love performance vehicles but I'm certainly not fighting the inevitable because of the way a V8 sounds etc.
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      09-19-2019, 09:36 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Not for long, unfortunately.

Too bad, the Focus, Fusion and Fiesta are all good cars.
Yah, they are being replaced, but I'm guessing whatever crossover/hybrid will be just as attainable. They are ok (I wish they were a bit more reliable/especially the transmissions), but yes great cheap commuter cars for families. Three year old used Civics/Corollas are very attainable as well and serve their purpose very well. New ones aren't bad either, but if you are talking about struggling families I can see them being a stretch.
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      09-19-2019, 09:43 AM   #77
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While Iím all for states rights I donít think it works well for this topic. By states having different EPA regs makes it difficult( more expensive) for companyís both domestic and foreign from selling their vehicles in the U.S. Determining how vehicles pass/fail emissions really needs to be done on a Federal level. Canít leave it in the hands of politicians like Gavin Newsome.
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      09-19-2019, 09:46 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
While Iím all for states rights I donít think it works well for this topic. By states having different EPA regs makes it difficult( more expensive) for companyís both domestic and foreign from selling their vehicles in the U.S. Determining how vehicles pass/fail emissions really needs to be done on a Federal level. Canít leave it in the hands of politicians like Gavin Newsome.
Slippery slope, sir. It's all fun and games till it rolls the other way.

By your logic - it is more difficult and more expensive for gun manufacturers to make different sized magazines for CA versus other states. By your logic, we should just force all of the states to abide by California sized magazines, so that they will all be the same.

Big pile of nope, right there.

States rights are sacrament. They should not be beholden to the Federal Government.
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      09-19-2019, 09:58 AM   #79
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Slippery slope, sir. It's all fun and games till it rolls the other way.

By your logic - it is more difficult and more expensive for gun manufacturers to make different sized magazines for CA versus other states. By your logic, we should just force all of the states to abide by California sized magazines, so that they will all be the same.

Big pile of nope, right there.

States rights are sacrament. They should not be beholden to the Federal Government.
Good point, we have the 2nd amendment and thatís a national issue and California should not be permitted to modify it the way they choose to and do. Instead of forcing all the states to comply with Californiaís will it should be the other way around.
EPA regs are already Federal law not states rights. Just another cave in the right has conceded to the squeaky wheel gets the grease libs.
https://www.epa.gov/laws-regulations...-clean-air-act

EPA regs also isnít one of our Constitutional rights. I do see your point but weíll have to agree to disagree.
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      09-19-2019, 10:32 AM   #80
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This thread only remind me how hypocritical most are supporting California's stricter pollution standards while in other sections posting about their tunes (piggyback often so they can be disabled easy?) or talk about their other aftermarket additions that will not pass the current California laws.
Well, I don't live in California. So my tune would irrelevant to the discussion. Hell, we don't even do visual inspections in my state. I could go cat-less and almost certainly never get caught. I won't, but I easily could.

Further, does using a JB4 or a Dinan tune demonstrably create more emissions? Many times aftermarket tunes actually increase mileage.
...at a cost to the environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post

I don't live in California. As such, I could not care less what CA does with respect to emissions on vehicles.
You should it affects your wallet. They it's going bye bye
You do know that for decades BMW's sold in California had some differences with regards to emissions equipment vs same models sold elsewhere in the US?

Exhibit A: BMW N51 vs N52.


In any case the waiver is codified in the Clean Air Act and there's no mechanism to withdraw a waiver.
You are assuming. Just because there is nothing in the law about rescinding a waiver, there is nothing to state it cannot be rescinded either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
I feel bad for people in CA, but many of the emissions regulations we have today are a result of CAFE standards pushing manufacturers to innovate. I'm reminded of this every time an older car (even from the 1990s) drives by and I can smell it for the next few miles.

The diesel emissions regulations are a nightmare though. Manufacturers are literally throwing shit at the wall hoping it works to pass the requirements and we end up with trucks that cost $90,000 and require $15,000 exhaust system replacements every few years. Many of these systems end up destroying the engine soon after warranty just because of their faulty design. Instead of California having super strict standards and other states having less, there should be more uniform standards across the country. It makes no sense that in one state you need to be able to breathe from the tailpipe and in a neighboring one you can blow black smoke for 50 miles making all the cars behind you disappear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I agree. Plus, I still stand by my original statements in that California has every right to do whatever they want to do. Folks who disagree can either vote with their pencils during elections or they can vote with their wallets and move.

I don't live in California. As such, I could not care less what CA does with respect to emissions on vehicles.
I'm generally for states rights over federal laws, but sometimes it does makes sense for a blanket federal statute.

But, here California is not the same as Wyoming, MN or Tennessee etc for that matter and have different needs due to their population and geography. I still go back to Cali every other year to visit family and I'm amazed at how the smog is creeping into areas and staying longer than I ever remember. Even with these stringent rules the pollution is still bad and increasing.

But, even those in Tennessee should care about the air quality standards if you care about the Smokies etc. All of that crap travels across the country and affects everyone/everywhere. I've actually read a decent amount about the affects on the Smokies and areas such as that from surrounding industry/auto pollution etc and it is sad.

Yes, I'm a hypocrite as I love performance vehicles but I'm certainly not fighting the inevitable because of the way a V8 sounds etc.
That's funny because the smog and Sig Alerts Which were literally daily decades ago where literally everyday visibility was far less than a mile, has been so much better (actually almost non-existent) compared to then.
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      09-19-2019, 11:07 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
...at a cost to the environment.


You are assuming. Just because there is nothing in the law about rescinding a waiver, there is nothing to state it cannot be rescinded either.


That's funny because the smog and Sig Alerts Which were literally daily decades ago where literally everyday visibility was far less than a mile, has been so much better (actually almost non-existent) compared to then.
Granted this is anecdotal and it would be nice to have some real data on the issue. But, I remember as a kid growing up in Carmichael in the 80s I could occasionally see snow capped mountains from our neighborhood. Friends and family that still live there say that doesn't anymore. Which, makes sense because the whole area has grown a ton since then. We then moved to Camarillo in the late 80s and I don't remember it being smoggy their then. I just spent some time there last summer and was surprised that was pretty smoggy there. UncleWede can speak to this more than I can I'm sure. Any way, yes cars are much cleaner and more efficient since the 80s etc, but just due to natural growth there are many more on the road also. Hence the constant fight to be ever cleaner emission wise.

Edit: Doing some quick research it appears that the smog/ozone levels have been increasing in So Cal at least the last two years and violated health standards more than a 130 times each of those last two years. I'd say that is more than a non existent problem.

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      09-19-2019, 11:24 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
...at a cost to the environment.


You are assuming. Just because there is nothing in the law about rescinding a waiver, there is nothing to state it cannot be rescinded either.


That's funny because the smog and Sig Alerts Which were literally daily decades ago where literally everyday visibility was far less than a mile, has been so much better (actually almost non-existent) compared to then.
Granted this is anecdotal and it would be nice to have some real data on the issue. But, I remember as a kid growing up in Carmichael in the 80s I could occasionally see snow capped mountains from our neighborhood. Friends and family that still live there say that doesn't anymore. Which, makes sense because the whole area has grown a ton since then. We then moved to Camarillo in the late 80s and I don't remember it being smoggy their then. I just spent some time there last summer and was surprised that was pretty smoggy there. UncleWede can speak to this more than I can I'm sure. Any way, yes cars are much cleaner and more efficient since the 80s etc, but just due to natural growth there are many more on the road also. Hence the constant fight to be ever cleaner emission wise.

Edit: Doing some quick research it appears that the smog/ozone levels have been increasing in So Cal at least the last two years and violated health standards more than a 130 times each of those last two years. I'd say that is more than a non existent problem.
When you break through all internet posturing and e constitutional experts it boggles my mind that what ppl are saying is they want more pollution in the air because it will hurt liberals.

Air pollution is a real thing. Just because you don't have it in your town yet doesn't mean it's not real and ppl who do have it in their town aren't allowed to get rid of it.

Republicans are sick ppl on this topic, except for run silent
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      09-19-2019, 11:31 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
When you break through all internet posturing and e constitutional experts it boggles my mind that what ppl are saying is they want more pollution in the air because it will hurt liberals.

Air pollution is a real thing. Just because you don't have it in your town yet doesn't mean it's not real and ppl who do have it in their town aren't allowed to get rid of it.

Republicans are sick ppl on this topic, except for run silent
I honestly don't get why this is a left/right political issue either. It should be driven by the data etc. I can't imagine what LA etc would look like now had California not tightened emissions restrictions etc. The Smog heyday was in the 80s, but with many more people/development in California since then it would be unlivable.

I wouldn't go as far to call them sick though, misguided/ignorant (sometimes purposely so) on the subject is what would go with.
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      09-19-2019, 12:10 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
This thread only remind me how hypocritical most are supporting California's stricter pollution standards while in other sections posting about their tunes (piggyback often so they can be disabled easy?) or talk about their other aftermarket additions that will not pass the current California laws.
Well, I don't live in California. So my tune would irrelevant to the discussion. Hell, we don't even do visual inspections in my state. I could go cat-less and almost certainly never get caught. I won't, but I easily could.

Further, does using a JB4 or a Dinan tune demonstrably create more emissions? Many times aftermarket tunes actually increase mileage.
...at a cost to the environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post

I don't live in California. As such, I could not care less what CA does with respect to emissions on vehicles.
You should it affects your wallet. They it's going bye bye
You do know that for decades BMW's sold in California had some differences with regards to emissions equipment vs same models sold elsewhere in the US?

Exhibit A: BMW N51 vs N52.


In any case the waiver is codified in the Clean Air Act and there's no mechanism to withdraw a waiver.
You are assuming. Just because there is nothing in the law about rescinding a waiver, there is nothing to state it cannot be rescinded either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
I feel bad for people in CA, but many of the emissions regulations we have today are a result of CAFE standards pushing manufacturers to innovate. I'm reminded of this every time an older car (even from the 1990s) drives by and I can smell it for the next few miles.

The diesel emissions regulations are a nightmare though. Manufacturers are literally throwing shit at the wall hoping it works to pass the requirements and we end up with trucks that cost $90,000 and require $15,000 exhaust system replacements every few years. Many of these systems end up destroying the engine soon after warranty just because of their faulty design. Instead of California having super strict standards and other states having less, there should be more uniform standards across the country. It makes no sense that in one state you need to be able to breathe from the tailpipe and in a neighboring one you can blow black smoke for 50 miles making all the cars behind you disappear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I agree. Plus, I still stand by my original statements in that California has every right to do whatever they want to do. Folks who disagree can either vote with their pencils during elections or they can vote with their wallets and move.

I don't live in California. As such, I could not care less what CA does with respect to emissions on vehicles.
I'm generally for states rights over federal laws, but sometimes it does makes sense for a blanket federal statute.

But, here California is not the same as Wyoming, MN or Tennessee etc for that matter and have different needs due to their population and geography. I still go back to Cali every other year to visit family and I'm amazed at how the smog is creeping into areas and staying longer than I ever remember. Even with these stringent rules the pollution is still bad and increasing.

But, even those in Tennessee should care about the air quality standards if you care about the Smokies etc. All of that crap travels across the country and affects everyone/everywhere. I've actually read a decent amount about the affects on the Smokies and areas such as that from surrounding industry/auto pollution etc and it is sad.

Yes, I'm a hypocrite as I love performance vehicles but I'm certainly not fighting the inevitable because of the way a V8 sounds etc.
That's funny because the smog and Sig Alerts Which were literally daily decades ago where literally everyday visibility was far less than a mile, has been so much better (actually almost non-existent) compared to then.
Just read section 209.

BTW it would take an act of Congress to revoke the waiver.

DOJ is going to lose this. I suspect the Administration knows this but they hope a federal court will issue an temporary injunction against the agreement between the State of California and automakers until it has been adjudicated which could be years.
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      09-19-2019, 12:52 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Granted this is anecdotal and it would be nice to have some real data on the issue. But, I remember as a kid growing up in Carmichael in the 80s I could occasionally see snow capped mountains from our neighborhood. Friends and family that still live there say that doesn't anymore. Which, makes sense because the whole area has grown a ton since then. We then moved to Camarillo in the late 80s and I don't remember it being smoggy their then. I just spent some time there last summer and was surprised that was pretty smoggy there. UncleWede can speak to this more than I can I'm sure. Any way, yes cars are much cleaner and more efficient since the 80s etc, but just due to natural growth there are many more on the road also. Hence the constant fight to be ever cleaner emission wise.

Edit: Doing some quick research it appears that the smog/ozone levels have been increasing in So Cal at least the last two years and violated health standards more than a 130 times each of those last two years. I'd say that is more than a non existent problem.
Maybe I don't get out enough, but smog and Ventura County have not been related, in my humble opinion. When I go up to the cabin in Lake Isabella, then drive home, I don't notice any air quality issues. It doesn't smell like pine/cedar, but I don't detect smog either. There ARE a shit-ton more cars on the road, and I'm literally less than 1/4 mile from the 101 that ties up in both directions starting around 3pm. Maybe Camarillo just doesn't benefit from that ocean breeze

Again, I think this will keep X. Becerra busy for several weeks/months, so he won't be freed up to launch his own barrage of BS suits against the Trump Admin.
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      09-19-2019, 02:27 PM   #86
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...at a cost to the environment...

Cite, please.
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      09-19-2019, 02:38 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Cite, please.
his source is that California says it does
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      09-19-2019, 03:37 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Granted this is anecdotal and it would be nice to have some real data on the issue. But, I remember as a kid growing up in Carmichael in the 80s I could occasionally see snow capped mountains from our neighborhood. Friends and family that still live there say that doesn't anymore. Which, makes sense because the whole area has grown a ton since then. We then moved to Camarillo in the late 80s and I don't remember it being smoggy their then. I just spent some time there last summer and was surprised that was pretty smoggy there. UncleWede can speak to this more than I can I'm sure. Any way, yes cars are much cleaner and more efficient since the 80s etc, but just due to natural growth there are many more on the road also. Hence the constant fight to be ever cleaner emission wise.

Edit: Doing some quick research it appears that the smog/ozone levels have been increasing in So Cal at least the last two years and violated health standards more than a 130 times each of those last two years. I'd say that is more than a non existent problem.
I vaguely remember being a child in SOCAL (69-72) and wheezing and being severely asthmatic because of the severe smog in the LA area. Then we moved back to Texas, and things got a lot better. I understand why they want stricter emission standards and support it.

I don't believe SF has the same problem, do they? Isn't the smog issue a combination of emissions + socals unique geography and weather patterns?
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