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      09-18-2019, 09:08 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
If the law only effects intrastate
The agreement they made effects interstate which is a violation of interstate commerce and is usurping federal national environmental standards
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      09-18-2019, 09:43 AM   #46
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Apparently the EPA does not have the legal authority to revoke California's waiver because it is explicitly stated in the Clean Air Act itself and the Act does not give the EPA the ability to revoke a waiver.

That leaves the Executive Branch to argue that the ability to grant a waiver is unconstitutional. Good luck with that Mr. President.
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      09-18-2019, 01:45 PM   #47
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For those on here (mostly libs-who can't really comprehend reality). When you have cars get better gas mileage. It means that there will be on the average more cars on the road. More cars on the road means more congestion and more pollution. But even if not more congestion folks will travel more (on the average). Much of the savings on gasoline will literall evaporate.

I am a conservative tree hugger but am smart enough to figure shit out.
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      09-18-2019, 02:11 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
For those on here (mostly libs-who can't really comprehend reality). When you have cars get better gas mileage. It means that there will be on the average more cars on the road. More cars on the road means more congestion and more pollution. But even if not more congestion folks will travel more (on the average). Much of the savings on gasoline will literall evaporate.

I am a conservative tree hugger but am smart enough to figure shit out.

I can speak only for myself, but the expense of putting gas in my car makes me drive no more, or less, than I otherwise would. It never has.

I'm not driving to FL for vacation, instead of flying, just because gas is $1/gal cheaper or because I get 10mpg better than my last car got.

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      09-18-2019, 02:16 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
For those on here (mostly libs-who can't really comprehend reality). When you have cars get better gas mileage. It means that there will be on the average more cars on the road. More cars on the road means more congestion and more pollution. But even if not more congestion folks will travel more (on the average). Much of the savings on gasoline will literall evaporate.

I am a conservative tree hugger but am smart enough to figure shit out.
yeah... not many actually care enough to worry about all that.

The only time i ever hear anyone saying "well im not gonna get that car cause bad gas mileage" is those that are buying a second or 3rd car for commuting.
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      09-18-2019, 02:45 PM   #50
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Serious (mostly) question: Is having/driving a car a Constitutional Right? Most of us in Cali would reply in the affirmative, but if we take it in order as precendence, its "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" So I would suspect that clean air would come before V8.

In reality, this is just tit-for-tat with all the lawsuits Cali is filing against Trump.
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      09-18-2019, 02:50 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Serious (mostly) question: Is having/driving a car a Constitutional Right? Most of us in Cali would reply in the affirmative, but if we take it in order as precendence, its "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" So I would suspect that clean air would come before V8.

In reality, this is just tit-for-tat with all the lawsuits Cali is filing against Trump.
No. It has been tested and ruled on multiple times that being allowed to drive is a privilege, not a right, that can be taken away if you do not obey the laws.....even in California.
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      09-18-2019, 03:08 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
I can speak only for myself, but the expense of putting gas in my car makes me drive no more, or less, than I otherwise would. It never has.

I'm not driving to FL for vacation, instead of flying, just because gas is $1/gal cheaper or because I get 10mpg better than my last car got.

Understand. But a BMW board is for the most part not JoeSixpack USA. People on the average drive more when gas is cheaper (per mile). I know people who fall into this category.
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      09-18-2019, 03:25 PM   #53
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Bottom line is the auto manufacturers aren't going to toss out decades of R&D and start making cars that run on leaded gas again. As was said earlier this is another Trump trying to get his base fired up tactic. As you can see from his supporters here and elsewhere it works for some weird reason.
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      09-18-2019, 03:27 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Understand. But a BMW board is for the most part not JoeSixpack USA. People on the average drive more when gas is cheaper (per mile). I know people who fall into this category.
So you know people that walk/bike to work, school or the grocery store etc when gas is high and drive to there usual places when it isn't?

Or they decide to go on a vacation by car or not etc based on gas prices? I'm guessing the overall impact on emissions etc is negligible if this is even remotely true, which I'm having a hard time believing.
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      09-18-2019, 04:17 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
For those on here (mostly libs-who can't really comprehend reality). When you have cars get better gas mileage. It means that there will be on the average more cars on the road. More cars on the road means more congestion and more pollution. But even if not more congestion folks will travel more (on the average). Much of the savings on gasoline will literall evaporate.

I am a conservative tree hugger but am smart enough to figure shit out.
Overall data says differently

https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/11/4/1202/htm

People buy cars because they need cars; not because they get better gas mileage. No one is waiting for 2025 because emissions standards are going to be 10% better again and they can buy an additional car despite having no need for one...
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      09-18-2019, 04:48 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Serious (mostly) question: Is having/driving a car a Constitutional Right? Most of us in Cali would reply in the affirmative, but if we take it in order as precendence, its "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" So I would suspect that clean air would come before V8.

In reality, this is just tit-for-tat with all the lawsuits Cali is filing against Trump.
Exactly!! This is just tit for tat revenge stuff.

All the rest being said is a smoke screen from his shadiness and his followers here who have no principle and follow everything like suckers that they are
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      09-18-2019, 05:12 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
Exactly!! This is just tit for tat revenge stuff.

All the rest being said is a smoke screen from his shadiness and his followers here who have no principle and follow everything like suckers that they are
I generally support most Trump policies - but I think States rights should override the Federal Government nearly every time - and I agree that CA has the right to do pretty much whatever they want when it comes to emissions regulations. Trump is a moron for even bringing this up, it's a terrible idea and does nobody any good - it's literally a tit for tat.

So don't lump me in with all the other nut balls.
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      09-18-2019, 06:33 PM   #58
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What if they want less stringent laws like immigrants can kill people and stuff?
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      09-18-2019, 06:35 PM   #59
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What if they want less stringent laws like immigrants can kill people and stuff?
Murder is a State Law, so yes, they could (and from Katie Steinle's family point of view, as well as others, they already do).

https://abc7.com/suspect-in-kate-ste...ghter/2719471/
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      09-18-2019, 08:45 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Bottom line is the auto manufacturers aren't going to toss out decades of R&D and start making cars that run on leaded gas again. As was said earlier this is another Trump trying to get his base fired up tactic. As you can see from his supporters here and elsewhere it works for some weird reason.
The point is that there will be one set of laws..scheesch..Guess what..it costs more to manufacture a vehicle to a stricter standard. Get over it. Its rdiculous that a couple states drive emissions regulations.

This is a slam dunk.Its not a matter of states rights. Its a matter of States infringing on Regulations ascribed to the Federal Gov..Immigration?? (cough, cough)

I'll post again when this is a done deal or rather when all the challenges fail..its going into effect as we speak.
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      09-18-2019, 08:58 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
The point is that there will be one set of laws..scheesch..Guess what..it costs more to manufacture a vehicle to a stricter standard. Get over it. Its rdiculous that a couple states drive emissions regulations.

This is a slam dunk.Its not a matter of states rights. Its a matter of States infringing on Regulations ascribed to the Federal Gov..Immigration?? (cough, cough)

I'll post again when this is a done deal or rather when all the challenges fail..its going into effect as we speak.
I and virtually everyone else that is sane and can think is over it/accept it.

It seems Trump and others not so much. Trump can “win” here and it won’t change a thing as I said in my post. Manufacturers aren’t going to change what they are doing because they know when a sane President is elected (either Republican or Democrat) it will just go back to how it was before Trump attempted this.

Since as usual you think you are the smartest person in the room (just ask yourself) car manufacturers don’t just make cars for California or the US. So this move is even more insignificant because most manufacturers are making cars to the California standard or even stricter ones so they can sell them in other markets around the globe.

But hey, enjoy the “win.”
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      09-18-2019, 09:29 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I and virtually everyone else that is sane and can think is over it/accept it.

It seems Trump and others not so much. Trump can ďwinĒ here and it wonít change a thing as I said in my post. Manufacturers arenít going to change what they are doing because they know when a sane President is elected (either Republican or Democrat) it will just go back to how it was before Trump attempted this.

Since as usual you think you are the smartest person in the room (just ask yourself) car manufacturers donít just make cars for California or the US. So this move is even more insignificant because most manufacturers are making cars to the California standard or even stricter ones so they can sell them in other markets around the globe.
A huge yes to all of this. People like abc1000 are simply ignorant. All of my major manufacturing clients have paid no attention to the environmental regs Trump has destroyed because they know everything will be reenacted at some point. They are going forward with all plans and spending to meet all current and expected future regs, especially on the air emissions and water discharge side.

As I said before, environmental stewardship has a huge effect on business because customers and companies demand it now. 20 years ago it was nothing but an expense to a company. Not anymore. Perception is everything and it sells products. The US and CA aren't a huge driver in all of this either. Much of it comes out of the EU. Most everything is global now. As a supplier, you'd be have solid environmental programs in place to make the most environmentally sound product as possible and it best meet the product standards of the US, CA, and the EU as well. Consumers want to know that the products they buy are as environmentally friendly as possible.
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      09-19-2019, 01:09 AM   #63
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This thread makes me feel good that there atleast 2-3 not insane ppl on this forum
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      09-19-2019, 01:53 AM   #64
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This thread only remind me how hypocritical most are supporting California's stricter pollution standards while in other sections posting about their tunes (piggyback often so they can be disabled easy?) or talk about their other aftermarket additions that will not pass the current California laws.
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      09-19-2019, 05:25 AM   #65
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These emissions standards on the one hand have created some of the most strict emmissions standards in the world. Especially in regards to the oil industry and refining. That being said it had destroyed the diesel automobile market.

Will vw bring back the tdi once the (very retarded) emissions control systems are no longer a requirement?

Go talk to a trucker about how expensive these systems are. One would wish that such emissions control systems were a requirement in order to control the amount of CO coming out of a gasser cars arsehole.

I understand where this is coming from on an industrial scale and i get its validity. But some aspects do not have a firm grasp on reality.
My father paid $15,000 to instill this piece of crap emissions system on his older freight. It has to be renewed(rebought) every few years.
For a small business owner, $15,000 is a lot of money.

As long as their emissions requirements don't prohibit the registration of older vehicles, I'm relatively fine with it. Nothing you can do. Listen to the sound of the LCI C63S AMG following EU restrictions. Does that sound like an AMG to you?
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      09-19-2019, 07:54 AM   #66
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This thread only remind me how hypocritical most are supporting California's stricter pollution standards while in other sections posting about their tunes (piggyback often so they can be disabled easy?) or talk about their other aftermarket additions that will not pass the current California laws.
Well, I don't live in California. So my tune would irrelevant to the discussion. Hell, we don't even do visual inspections in my state. I could go cat-less and almost certainly never get caught. I won't, but I easily could.

Further, does using a JB4 or a Dinan tune demonstrably create more emissions? Many times aftermarket tunes actually increase mileage.
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