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      03-13-2019, 05:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by hybris View Post
That you know one guy who made it despite a difficult starting point doesn't really prove much. There are tons of hard working people who are shit out of luck and are unable to get a job that will provide for their family for any number of reasons.

Also, watch this if you think we all have an equal starting point:


And if you agree we don't have an equal starting point, how is it fair to not redistribute some wealth to the less fortunate?
I watched the video. I get the unequal starting points, but there are also unequal abilities (in the video analogy, running speed, stamina, having two good legs, etc). More importantly, I don’t see life, or even a subset of life (my personal economic results) being at all like a race. I’m not competing for a finish line, and I’m really not trying to get to life’s finish line any faster than I have to. I am competing, in a society of plenty, for some resources, but that’s about it. My education does not detract from yours, my job does not lock you out of a similar job or any other career, whatever I am able to accumulate does not prevent you from accumulating what you desire, and so forth.

Maybe a better question is, “what are we trying to achieve?”

And a related one, in all seriousness, is “why is inequality of wealth or income bad?” So what if someone has more or earns more than I, as long as I have the ability to have enough.

Now for people with limited abilities, of course a good society will find ways to take care of them. Whether family, social/religious institutions, local, state or federal government - or a combination- this we should (and already do) do.
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      03-13-2019, 05:13 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Um, because most polite societies consider stealing to be wrong.

Because private property ownership and rights (not just real estate, all forms of property) are fundamental to our society, politics and economy, and to all capitalist economies.
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      03-14-2019, 09:24 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by hybris View Post
I don't want free grad school, I take free grad school for granted.

I don't understand your argument about it "working great" because they are strict. What's your point here exactly? The percentage of the population with higher education is roughly similar say in the US compared to Norway.

EDIT: Guessing wildly that your point is that everyone still won't be able to get an college degree because they limit it on how good your grades are. That's a point of sorts, but surely it's better that the kids who works the hardest and are the brightest are allowed to continue to study, not the ones with the most money?
the point is, if you make it so everyone can go to college, you significantly devalue a college degree. Once a college degree is commonplace, the difference will be who could afford grad school, and then eventually people will be saying grad school should be free for everyone.

In most of the European countries, yes college is free, but entrance requirements are much more strict than most colleges in the USA. So you are only getting the cream of the crop going to college, which limits who goes to college, which leads us back to people thinking everyone is entitled to a college degree.

Currently, if you are exceptional in schooling, you can get a significant portion, if not all of it, paid for. Free college for all, doesnt really apply to these people. They are already able to access free college.
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      03-14-2019, 02:21 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Um, because most polite societies consider stealing to be wrong.

I find it difficult to wrap my head around the "American" way of thinking, where you seem to base your world view on a premise that by default the world is a fair place, where everyone deserve what they get or have. While in reality there is limited correlation between people's wealth and how smart they are or how hard they work, especially when we talk about the very very rich. There are people out there with a higher net worth than all the people on this forum combined, but I'm sure we all agree the work they put in or their intellect is nowhere near high enough to justify that difference.

On the other end, you have people with zero money that are both harder working and smarter than your average billionaire, simply because they were born the wrong place (even within the U.S, and certainly if they end up in some other remote part of the world).

If fair is supposed to have anything to do with it, then certainly the above is not fair? But if we want to redistribute wealth (within reason), that's suddenly unfair too? It just doesn't add up.

If someone has a thousand times more money than the average Joe, isn't it "fair" for that person to share a bit with people who have next to nothing, so they at least can get food on the table (and a table to put it on), pay their medical bills and give their children whatever education they want? Even across country borders?
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      03-14-2019, 02:23 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
Because private property ownership and rights (not just real estate, all forms of property) are fundamental to our society, politics and economy, and to all capitalist economies.
All capitalist economies relies on taxes too, which in part helps redistribute wealth, some countries more than others.
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      03-14-2019, 02:24 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybris View Post
I find it difficult to wrap my head around the "American" way of thinking, where you seem to base your world view on a premise that by default the world is a fair place, where everyone deserve what they get or have. While in reality there is limited correlation between people's wealth and how smart they are or how hard they work, especially when we talk about the very very rich. There are people out there with a higher net worth than all the people on this forum combined, but I'm sure we all agree the work they put in or their intellect is nowhere near high enough to justify that difference.

On the other end, you have people with zero money that are both harder working and smarter than your average billionaire, simply because they were born the wrong place (even within the U.S, and certainly if they end up in some other remote part of the world).

If fair is supposed to have anything to do with it, then certainly the above is not fair? But if we want to redistribute wealth (within reason), that's suddenly unfair too? It just doesn't add up.

If someone has a thousand times more money than the average Joe, isn't it "fair" for that person to share a bit with people who have next to nothing, so they at least can get food on the table (and a table to put it on), pay their medical bills and give their children whatever education they want? Even across country borders?
Life ain’t fair.

I think that the issue, at least for me, is compulsion vs compassion. I’m fine with sharing what I have and I hope others choose to do the same; I’m not fine with compelling someone to “share” or divest what they have just because they have more than I. And that goes for income, wealth, skills, time, and all the rest.
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      03-14-2019, 02:24 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
the point is, if you make it so everyone can go to college, you significantly devalue a college degree. Once a college degree is commonplace, the difference will be who could afford grad school, and then eventually people will be saying grad school should be free for everyone.

In most of the European countries, yes college is free, but entrance requirements are much more strict than most colleges in the USA. So you are only getting the cream of the crop going to college, which limits who goes to college, which leads us back to people thinking everyone is entitled to a college degree.

Currently, if you are exceptional in schooling, you can get a significant portion, if not all of it, paid for. Free college for all, doesnt really apply to these people. They are already able to access free college.
Did you read the last part of my post?
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      03-14-2019, 02:26 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybris View Post
All capitalist economies relies on taxes too, which in part helps redistribute wealth, some countries more than others.
Taxes fund government first.
It is another policy idea to use them to redistribute wealth, starting with government programs to help/assist segments of the population (that’s not running government per se). The degree of this is really where the debate lies.
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      03-14-2019, 02:29 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
Life ain’t fair.

I think that the issue, at least for me, is compulsion vs compassion. I’m fine with sharing what I have and I hope others choose to do the same; I’m not fine with compelling someone to “share” or divest what they have just because they have more than I. And that goes for income, wealth, skills, time, and all the rest.
The point isn't that someone should give their money to me because they have more than me, but that everyone contributes to the common good based on their means.

The big difference in mindset here is that instead of thinking "What is mine belongs to me", you think "If we take care of each other, together we can do greater things", and that having basic needs covered for more people, means a better nation for everyone, both poor and rich.
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      03-14-2019, 02:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
Taxes fund government first.
It is another policy idea to use them to redistribute wealth, starting with government programs to help/assist segments of the population (that’s not running government per se). The degree of this is really where the debate lies.
Depends on your definition of "redistribute wealth", and/or how large part of basic infrastructure is covered by general as opposed to specific taxes. Does the fire department only put out the fire in your house if you could afford to pay the fire brigade tax? Do the ambulance just leave you in the street when you are run over by a car if you don't have money? The line has to be drawn somewhere, so yes I guess the discussion is about where that line is.
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      03-14-2019, 02:34 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybris View Post
The point isn't that someone should give their money to me because they have more than me, but that everyone contributes to the common good based on their means.

The big difference in mindset here is that instead of thinking "What is mine belongs to me", you think "If we take care of each other, together we can do greater things", and that having basic needs covered for more people, means a better nation for everyone, both poor and rich.
I think for America, and certainly for me, the question is not whether to help it is how and how much. The “how” is a question of the degree of government involvement versus other means (direct, charities, etc), and the “how much” also includes the form (money, food vouchers, etc).

The two views you express (what is mine belongs to me and if we take care of each other,...) are not mutually exclusive. It become a question of my choice versus compulsion, and historically Americans haven’t been real big on compulsion. That seems to be changing, though.
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      03-14-2019, 02:37 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by hybris View Post
Depends on your definition of "redistribute wealth", and/or how large part of basic infrastructure is covered by general as opposed to specific taxes. Does the fire department only put out the fire in your house if you could afford to pay the fire brigade tax? Do the ambulance just leave you in the street when you are run over by a car if you don't have money? The line has to be drawn somewhere, so yes I guess the discussion is about where that line is.
I agree (the classic anti-libertarian argument). I don’t mean to suggest the line be drawn at the most minimal government; I’m also not a fan of the maximum government! I really don’t know where to draw the line, but I generally start thinking about any proposed government program with the question “is this an appropriate role for government” which gets to alternative ways to achieve the goals, efficiency and efficacy, etc.
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      03-14-2019, 02:50 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I'm not going to get into this, because you can easily search my previous posts, but to suffice to say...


3) Income, net worth, and money in general is not a zero sum game. Just because I have more, doesn't dictate that someone else has less. This is the number one fallacy that those against capitalism attempt to pro port.
I agree it's not a zero sum game, and I'm not against capitalism, I'm not a communist and I don't live in a communist country The current prime minister of Norway belongs to a party that's literally called "Right" (and I vote for it). But our Right is still a bit to the left of your right. We're aware of the negative effects of immigration, but we don't build walls, to put it that way.

Anyway, as I said in another thread here somewhere, even though the systems of government in for instance Norway and USA is different in many aspects, they do both clearly work quite well. So there's no one perfect answer to any of this.
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      03-14-2019, 04:10 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
It is NEVER fair to redistribute wealth. Never.
The video is not calling for redistribution of wealth. The recent statements by Ocasio-Cortez and Warren are simply designed to grab attention for their own benefit. I doubt that they would actually implement anything like that.
The video calls for helping those in the back, who are there not by fault of their own. That's as far as one should take the analogy of that race to life.
The main point started in this thread is that life is a fair leveled playing field. It is not. We just need to recognize that. The rest comes naturally once we understand the many ways that our society can tilt the playing field.
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      03-14-2019, 04:22 PM   #59
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My coworker and I solved America's education problem. Everyone gets to go to their freshmen year of college for free. After that, they either have a high enough GPA to get 0% interest loans from the gov, or they are not trying hard enough and they can figure it out themselves or go compete at entry-level.

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      03-14-2019, 04:44 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Dogeeseegod View Post
My coworker and I solved America's education problem. Everyone gets to go to their freshmen year of college for free. After that, they either have a high enough GPA to get 0% interest loans from the gov, or they are not trying hard enough and they can figure it out themselves or go compete at entry-level.

This is reasonable and much nicer than my good friend's proposal:

College
Trade School
Peace Corp or some such
Military Service
Volunteered for medical experimentation as a test subject.

Cheers-mk
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      03-14-2019, 04:48 PM   #61
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Now you guys are just picking on us 10%-er minorities
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      03-14-2019, 05:45 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybris View Post
Did you read the last part of my post?
did you read my posts?

thsoe students that excell but cant afford college, 9 times out of 10, are able to get the majority, if not all, of their college paid for. So the argument for free college for all, doesnt really apply to them.
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      03-14-2019, 08:10 PM   #63
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Now you guys are just picking on us 10%-er minorities
What's a minority?

We're all Americans!
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      03-30-2019, 08:42 PM   #64
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      03-30-2019, 09:54 PM   #65
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Worth repeating

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I'm tired of nut jobs like Obama, Hillary, Bernie, AOC wanting to share the wealth with a bunch of deadbeats who didn't earn it.

I used to work with a guy from the Congo, he came here at 18, went to Embry-Riddle worked hard, became an Engineer and went on to work for Lockheed Martin, was there for over 10 years.

The left telling minorities the system is rigged is doing them a disservice, it's not rigged.

People from all over the world come here and become successful!


It requires WORK, nothing is just handed to you! That should be the message from the left instead of conning them into voting for them with the promises of free everything!
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      03-30-2019, 10:38 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halid View Post
You believe in America, yet you fail to understand it's Constitution. Please clarify.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Under the context of this, welfare, is meant to provide poor people with a minimal level of well-being, by either a free, or a subsidized-supply of certain goods and social services, such as healthcare, education, and vocational training.
yet welfare in the US did not begin until 1935. i do not think anyone who wrote the constitution was referring to or implying people should receive the type of welfare and assistance they do now and even more.
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