[JazzEKline]

I remember some years ago watching a show that featured a hydrogen 7 series (I said H20 on the side if anyone remembers). I don't really know much about hydrogen technology so I thought I would ask some other members about it. My question to the forum is: With the increase in gas, and the development of alternate fuel/hybrid vechicals, where do you see BMW in all of this? Considering BMW is a leading automotive manufacture I would guess that they will do something within the next couple of years.

If you have any info/opinions I would be interested to hear them. Perhaps those of you in California have first had experience with the performance and driving dynamic of a hydrogen car.

[Broken1]

I also saw a hydrogen mini next to that hydrogen 7....

Very cool IMO.

[ward]

it would suck

hydrogen has only about half the energy in it as regular gas.
your 255 hp 330, would only produce 125hp and be quite slow

That crazy tweaked out hydrogen top speed car they'd built had a tricked out V-12, putting out about 240 hp IIRC.

add refueling issues and storage of hydrogen in the car (very explosive)

no thanks

[JazzEKline]

Originally Posted by ward

it would suck

hydrogen has only about half the energy in it as regular gas.
your 255 hp 330, would only produce 125hp and be quite slow

That crazy tweaked out hydrogen top speed car they'd built had a tricked out V-12, putting out about 240 hp IIRC.

add refueling issues and storage of hydrogen in the car (very explosive)

no thanks

What about a cleaner earth that your kids can actually breath in? Is that worth half the power in your car?

I see your point about the prolbems but they can be improved. 30 years ago I'm sure many would have laughed at the thought of owning anything less than a V8 preformace car.
Just playing devils advocate.

[Username18]

Originally Posted by ward

it would suck

hydrogen has only about half the energy in it as regular gas.
your 255 hp 330, would only produce 125hp and be quite slow

That crazy tweaked out hydrogen top speed car they'd built had a tricked out V-12, putting out about 240 hp IIRC.

add refueling issues and storage of hydrogen in the car (very explosive)

no thanks

I'm not a science guy by any means but I would think if hydrogen is so explosive than it would produce more power. Why is it that it produces so much less power.
And also we are driving around in cars filled with gasoline, we may tend to forget that that isnt the safest substance either.

[espo]

Originally Posted by JazzEKline

What about a cleaner earth that your kids can actually breath in? Is that worth half the power in your car?

I see your point about the prolbems but they can be improved. 30 years ago I'm sure many would have laughed at the thought of owning anything less than a V8 preformace car.
Just playing devils advocate.

Let's not get started on what is wrong with the statement at the top. Hydrogen is not the "clean" fuel that politicians like to make it out to be. The only cost effective way to produce Hydrogen is by using natural gas and ALOT of energy which requires the units that make the H2 to burn more natural gas (and with all of the various emissions that can come from that). So while the car may only put out water from the tail pipe, the production method then produces the polutions... Like I've always been told, you can't get anything for nothing..

BTW I actually work for a company that makes hydrogen (so I'm a little familiar with the current technolgy)...

[ward]

Originally Posted by Username18

I'm not a science guy by any means but I would think if hydrogen is so explosive than it would produce more power. Why is it that it produces so much less power.
And also we are driving around in cars filled with gasoline, we may tend to forget that that isnt the safest substance either.

try putting a match up to a ballon full of hydrogen vs dropping a match in a pool of gas. One explodes, while the other drowns the match with no fire occuring.

There is less energy in hydrogen than gasoline, it's just a chemical fact. That's why hydrogen powered cars produce such small HP.

less power and less safe... hhmm sounds like a bad idea to me

[deutsch100]

Originally Posted by espo89

Let's not get started on what is wrong with the statement at the top. Hydrogen is not the "clean" fuel that politicians like to make it out to be. The only cost effective way to produce Hydrogen is by using natural gas and ALOT of energy which requires the units that make the H2 to burn more natural gas (and with all of the various emissions that can come from that). So while the car may only put out water from the tail pipe, the production method then produces the polutions... Like I've always been told, you can't get anything for nothing..

BTW I actually work for a company that makes hydrogen (so I'm a little familiar with the current technolgy)...

Exactly. I sat in on a 3+ hour seminar on the Hydrogen powered 7 Series. Yes, the emissions are super clean (basically just water), but like Espo89 said...the energy (gas, coal, electricity) needed to extract the Hydrogen creates the same or more pollution than refining gasoline and diesel. You also need this enormous tank in the car to hold the hydrogen...so you have to give up either most of the trunk, or all of the back seat. There is also the cost and Pollution of building tens of thousands of Hydrogen filling stations. There is NOTHING enviornmental about making Hydrogen cars.

[JazzEKline]

Originally Posted by espo89

The only cost effective way to produce Hydrogen is by using natural gas and ALOT of energy which requires the units that make the H2 to burn more natural gas (and with all of the various emissions that can come from that). So while the car may only put out water from the tail pipe, the production method then produces the polutions...
BTW I actually work for a company that makes hydrogen (so I'm a little familiar with the current technolgy)...

Thanks for the knowledge. I didn't know that bit of information about the production process involved in making hydrogen

Is there any way to make it more cost effect?

I mean it is never going to be cost effect if we only produce/consume gas powered cars - right?

[ben1364]

Originally Posted by espo89

Let's not get started on what is wrong with the statement at the top. Hydrogen is not the "clean" fuel that politicians like to make it out to be. The only cost effective way to produce Hydrogen is by using natural gas and ALOT of energy which requires the units that make the H2 to burn more natural gas (and with all of the various emissions that can come from that). So while the car may only put out water from the tail pipe, the production method then produces the polutions... Like I've always been told, you can't get anything for nothing..

BTW I actually work for a company that makes hydrogen (so I'm a little familiar with the current technolgy)...

__________________________________________________ _
A big AMEN, ESPO89! Thanks.

[ben1364]

Originally Posted by JazzEKline

Thanks for the knowledge. I didn't know that bit of information about the production process involved in making hydrogen

Is there any way to make it more cost effect?

I mean it is never going to be cost effect if we only produce/consume gas powered cars - right?

__________________________________________________ ____The first step, IMO is to get over our unfounded fear of nuclear energy. Secondly, we need to develop hydroelectric, wind and clean coal fired stationary source power plants where they make sense. As an example, wind farms make sense when the wind is reliable, not so otherwise. Cape Cod Bay is an example that was blocked by a couple powerful U S Senators.

[espo]

The "cleanest" way to make Hydrogen is electrolisis (sp?) of water (essentially placing a current through a supply of pure water). Then end result of that process is hydrogen and oxygen. This is the reverse of the reaction of a fuel cell. As everyone knows fuel cells generate power, so the reverse of that reaction would consume power, and by physical laws you will have to put in more power than the energy the end hydrogen product provides to you.

Now the question is where to get the power from.... Power plants in their current forms (coal, natural gas, etc.) generate pollutants. Now the push is to develop a clean (oh yea and cheap) electicity source. That is where all the research on "clean" coal and "zero emmissions" power generation comes in (like nuclear).

So in the end, Hydrogen would just become a "carrying media" for the "clean" electric power.

[espo]

Originally Posted by ward

try putting a match up to a ballon full of hydrogen vs dropping a match in a pool of gas. One explodes, while the other drowns the match with no fire occuring.

There is less energy in hydrogen than gasoline, it's just a chemical fact. That's why hydrogen powered cars produce such small HP.

less power and less safe... hhmm sounds like a bad idea to me

Actually Hydrogen on a weight bases has more "energy" than gasoline. The problem is the fact that hydrogen is so much less dense than gasoline. Since you are not measuring a given mass of material into the cylinder, but a given volume that the hydogen appears to be less "powerfull".

Oh and feel free to go and drop a match into a pool of gasoline and test your little theory... (lets just say that I don't want to be around). The liquid is not what actually burns, it's the vapors on top of the liquid. So doing this experiment on a -20F morning would mean you have a better chance of making it....

Also, Hydrogen is not really "explosive" it's just flammable. It is also much "lighter" than air, if there is a leak in a cylinder it will rise and disipate very quickly or at worse start burning in a very narrow upward column. I've seen pictures of Hydrogen powered car test were there was a leak in the cylinder and a spark to ignite it. All there was was a small flame shooting upwards from the rear of the car... Now the same test with a leaking gas tank and a spark leads a whole different different seen. Since gas will pool under the car, well you get the picture....

Everyone remembers seeing the Hindenburg tapes and says how dangerous H2 is... Did you know that all of the hydrogen in that ballon was consumed in the first few seconds of that fire??? What you are actually seeing burn in that footage was the structure and covering of that ballon (since you really can't see hydrogen burn well, it burns with this very pale blue almost clear flame). Go figure...

[ward]

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogena...ge/basics.html

here's some info on energy, per mass hydrogen has 3x the energy of gas,

but by volume gas has 4 times more energy than hydrogen(even liquid H)

[england1987]

if you go to http://vodcast.bmw.com/ they have videos from the auto show. the talk about the X3 EfficientDynamics. there are some good videos

[younghov85]

I actually think it would be nice, but in the future. I like to see car companies try new things instead of doing the same old thing. Actually GM is creating a hydro Hummer, it was at the car show in D.C. It said H2H on the side of it. Very cool!!

[DTM]

What about a hybrid BMW?

[ward]

they made a hybrid X3 using capacitors in the running board area to store energy. No batteries, nice!!

[Squawks]

Like espo said, hydrogen fuel is not a completely clean fuel because the means of obtaining hydrogen are dirty to begin with.

Espo failed to mention, however, that if the world did use hydrogen fuel, yes, the world would actually be cleaner. How? Localized pollution - pollution can be contained to small, local areas which contain the H2-fuel production plants instead of systemic pollution caused by millions of cars in nearly every square mile of the country.

[a burrito]

As long as the engine/exhaust sounds good im all for it.

[shimshimhada]

Originally Posted by JazzEKline

What about a cleaner earth that your kids can actually breath in? Is that worth half the power in your car?

HELL no! We should just kill all the cows in the world imo.

[ward]

Originally Posted by shimshimhada

HELL no! We should just kill all the cows in the world imo.

mmmmm... steak!!!!