Another engine oil thread. Castrol Edge/Pennzoil/ Liqui Moly?

[n8dgr84]

Originally Posted by eddie57

hello everyone I read all the pages of this post concerning oil it appears that the xcess gen 2 motule is good... I am European and I have access to the RAVENOL VMO SAE 5W-40 HTHS 4.0 and kvs 100 13.3 c It's very good, isn't it?

Property Unit Data Audit
Density at 20 °C kg/m³ 848,0 EN ISO 12185
Colour gelbbraun VISUELL
Viscosity at 100 °C mm²/s 13,3 DIN 51562-1
Viscosity at 40 °C mm²/s 80,0 DIN 51562-1
Viscosity Index VI 170 DIN ISO 2909
HTHS Viscosity at 150 °C mPa*s 4,0 ASTM D5481
CCS Viscosity at -30 °C mPa*s 6375 ASTM D5293
Low Temp. Pumping viscosity (MRV) at -35 °C mPa*s 27.000 ASTM D4684
Pourpoint °C -45 DIN ISO 3016
Noack Volatility % M/M 8,8 ASTM D5800
Flashpoint °C 242 DIN EN ISO 2592
tbn mg KOH/g 8,7 ASTM D2896

Here's a good Used Oil Analysis from Ravenol VST 5w40 on a N55.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...mi-uoa.361380/

I'm not familiar with VMO but the NOACK 8.8% is a bit high for my liking. I suppose you could just top it up as it evaporates/gets consumed but would take more observation on your part. This NOACK level is similar to some LiquiMoly products.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by edycol

Ok. I need to jump on it. Ski season is about to finish.

edycol Definitive thread update!!?? It's been a year!

[edycol]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

edycol Definitive thread update!!?? It's been a year!

🫣
OK, I am becoming embarrassed. I must do it.

[agentrnge]

I have seen a ton of Castrol ads on reddit today saying its 10x as strong ( as compared to what I dont know ) lmao. One thing is for sure they increased the ad budget 10x.

[gurvir44]

Originally Posted by gurvir44

This might be also a good alternative, its one of the slimmest ive seen.
https://www.femco.com/compact-sb-7090010148-m12x15-t12/
I think the fumoto has a lower profile than the stahlbus too, but im curious if it doesn't fit just because of the hand valve protrusion.

I ended up buying this, so far it clears really well and doesn’t protrude past the skid plate. Haven’t used the drain yet but will update soon. I bought the t9 version

[Wanted_M]

Originally Posted by gurvir44

I ended up buying this, so far it clears really well and doesn’t protrude past the skid plate. Haven’t used the drain yet but will update soon. I bought the t9 version

The M12x1.25" T9 version?

[rsyring]

Originally Posted by edycol

🫣
OK, I am becoming embarrassed. I must do it.

I previously went through this entire thread and made notes of the statements that seemed essential in understanding how to choose oil. I then made a summary doc that just listed the things I took away from the discussion and a recommendation of the oils I should use:

• Key statements in the thread (IMO)
• Summary of findings and recommendations specifically geared towards dual street/track usage

Feel free to use that, if helpful, as a starting point.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by rsyring

I previously went through this entire thread and made notes of the statements that seemed essential in understanding how to choose oil. I then made a summary doc that just listed the things I took away from the discussion and a recommendation of the oils I should use:


Key statements in the thread (IMO)
Summary of findings and recommendations specifically geared towards dual street/track usage



Feel free to use that, if helpful, as a starting point.

Thank you!
I will jump pn it by the end of the month. Have too much work and travel now.

[gurvir44]

Originally Posted by Wanted_M

The M12x1.25" T9 version?

Mine is a 2015 so i have have the first revision of the oil pan. I ordered M16x1.5-T9. Femco says to torque to 25nm i believe but i did 20nm like bmw recommends and no leaks.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by rsyring

I previously went through this entire thread and made notes of the statements that seemed essential in understanding how to choose oil. I then made a summary doc that just listed the things I took away from the discussion and a recommendation of the oils I should use:

• Key statements in the thread (IMO)
• Summary of findings and recommendations specifically geared towards dual street/track usage

Feel free to use that, if helpful, as a starting point.

I had to do the same thing by brand and extracting out the track/street info. I keep pointing people to this thread. I will read yours and see.
ed: looks great, looks similar to mine but better format.

[FrankMstein]

edycol Do you know who makes the Mini LL17 FE+ oil?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

edycol Do you know who makes the Mini LL17 FE+ oil?

Should be Castrol. Theyare now contracted with BMW.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by edycol

Should be Castrol. Theyare now contracted with BMW.

You confirmed what others are saying.

[ericold]

1 question edycol.
you said that ambient temperature as far as oil viscosity affect is not of our concern.only altitude is.
but i noticed something.in winters to reach oil temp is much more harder than this hotter season .doesn't that tell us that ambient temp plays a role for affecting the viscosity of an oil?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ericold

1 question edycol.
you said that ambient temperature as far as oil viscosity affect is not of our concern.only altitude is.
but i noticed something.in winters to reach oil temp is much more harder than this hotter season .doesn't that tell us that ambient temp plays a role for affecting the viscosity of an oil?

I mean sure, look, temperature has an effect. But in the grand scheme of things, considering cooling capabilities, the temperature at low altitudes is not an issue. Cooling system can easily deal with that. Now, in winter, because you have very big sump, and it is cold, you need more time to warm up all that oil.
It is really not comparing apples to apples. To cool it off, system needs to maintain temperature, not to drop temperature from lets say 230f to 100f. It only needs to stay around 220-230f.
Warming up is completely different ball game. You want to raise the temperature of the oil from, let's say, 20 to 220. That takes time.
F and G generations have seriously capable cooling systems. And only time when you would see problem is maybe on track here in Colorado. That is ultimate test for cooling system. I have seen BMW's with two oil cooling radiators, aftermarket oversized stuff from Texas, Arizona, just to to have DME dial down power here or put them in limp mode. That is mostly on N54/55.

[ericold]

Guys, i gathered many information about oils and i ''built'' a review oil thread too:

BMW APPROVALS

when we choose an engine oil for our bmw always look for bmw approvals on the bottle,
there is a bmw approved oil list to select our oil.
there we find oils with grades ranging from 0-30 -5-40.
there ,oils must have ACEA C3 , A3/B4 standards ,they are all we need actually.

bmw approvals are based on HTHS not grade.bmw HTHS based oils are ranged from 3.5 to 4 .

4+ is usually strictly for rally cars.

CHOOSING THE RIGHT OIL

viscosity of oils is not affected by ambient temperature, only altitude does.
within approvals choosing an oil with grade is irrelevant bcs, WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS HTHS (High Temperature High Shear)
when we choose an oil within approvals we choose by HTHS
there isnt such a thing like the best oil,there is only the right one for our USE and we always follow the golden rule:

''as thin as possible as thick as neccessary" by thick or thin we measure it with HTHS always and not grade.

so:
for normal everyday use ,like dropping kids to school,shopping,groceries,generally short trips we choose an oil with lower HTHS,3.5-3.7.

for mix use,normal and track we ideally select an oil from 3.7-3.9.

for strictly track use we choose a specific oil for track like motul 300v or even motul sport,redline,HPL with or without approvals.its the only case we can choose an oil without approval but not for longtime use bcs. these oils contain more esters thats why oxidation comes sooner and thats why these oils dont get bmw approval. bcs of high oxidation these oils need a sooner OCI .
bmw approvals are mostly aiming to fuel efficiency and oxidation limits.bmw has the most stringent oxidation limits.

then from these oils ,having decided the HTHS parameter we choose the one with the best synthesis: better base oil, additives.

critiria for choosing the one with the best synthesis are these that combine at the same time:

low KV=100
ideally KV100 12.8 to 13.5

high HTHS 3.6-3.9 :
resistance of oil to temporary or permanent loss of viscosity. Higher HTHS=more resistance =more wear protection.

very low pour point :
Pour point in these oils is indicator that they are PAO based. Group III oils such as Castrol 5W40 are usually having pour point between-39 to -45. PAO based oils have very, very low pour point. As stated in Castrol 0W30/40 pds it is around-60. Actually pour point is irrelevant unless extremely cold climates. But, it gives us insight about base oil. PAO is stout, shear stable, provides higher HTHS out of similar KV100.
e.x.
castrol 0-30 a3/b4 api sl
motul 8100 xcess 5-40 gen 2,
motul 8100 xclean 5-40 gen 2,
mobil 0-40 api sn

NOACK is the third one:
the lower the better but its not always noted from companies.

MB 229.5 or 229.51-52 approval :now along with bmw approval its nice that the oil we choose has these mercedes approvals bcs, are the most stringent approval for oil shear resistance.

porsche approval A40,C40when track is the case then is also good to be there .

see more info in a tech sheet e.x. motul 8100 x-cess 5-40 gen 2, from MOTUL's site about these 2 last approvals and requirements.

and at last even if we choose the best one according to all these criteria above, the final product is what matters, no matter where it comes from and from what materials was initially produced.
we choose it,we test in time and make conclusions.

RESUME how to choose an oil:

"as thin as possible, as thick as necessary" and " what really matters is HTHS ( High Temperature High Shear) " :

normal everyday use ,like dropping kids to school,shopping,groceries,generally short trips we choose an oil with lower HTHS,3.5-3.7.

mix use,normal and track we ideally select an oil from 3.7-3.9.

track use we choose a specific oil for track like motul 300v or even motul sport,redline,HPL with or without approvals

acea c3 , Α3/Β4 standards

bmw ll04,bmw ll01, mb 229.5- .51-.52 , porche A40,c30,c40 approvals

hths = and over 3.5-4.0 for daily-mix track use

noack - ideally less than 10%

flash point - ideally over 230


BMW DI ENGINES OIL

for DI engines is better not to choose an oil with high Ash like mobil 0-40 sn, the reason is CBU.the reason why Mobil1 0W40 should not be used in DI engines, turbo or not, is TBN value. It is super rich in additives. Sulfated Ash value is at 1.32% which is extremely high, probably highest in ACEA A3 category. Higher Sulfated Ash=more CBU. Extremely high TBN oils don't match well to direct injection engines. Turbos especially like lower SAPS oil.Anywhere where there is a lot of heat, oils with lower sulfated ash and phosphorus are better. Also, bcs. VANOS, and, yes OCI, BMW likes oils that have oxidation in check.
Newer BMW engines are not affected as much by CBU,but in old ones we should avoid this oil like a plague.

for turbo DI engines its better to choose an API SP oil to help avoiding LSPI,even though the oil is not the cause.LSPI event happens when people drive in Eco mode and rpms are way too low and suddenly they slam on gas pedal. It is not oil that is the problem, but architecture of an engines. Lower calcium oil is a band aid.

NEWER BMW ENGINES AND THIN OILS

thin oils, efficiency oils for new engines like B58 :
These are not designed with grade in mind. Different markets have different recommendations. Initially, that engine in Europe was recommended for BMW Longlife LL04, thenLL17FE, now BMW Longlife-17 FE+ and moving to LL19FE and LL22FE.-12 FE. reason is CAFE and WLTP. Tuned B58 are running 15W50 and 5W50 on tracks in many instances.
Generally, higher HTHS oils pack more Zinc etc.better protection . not that thin oils dont supply protection but with lower hths this work is given to additives , different additives .the thing with additives is that you dont know how long they will last in thin oils.
addpack becomes more important as the HTHS is reduced. The 20 and sub-20 grade oils the addpack is extremely important because the HTHS is so low than an ENGINE damage can happen anytime.

IMO, HTHS of around 3 is really low for these vehicles. I personally would run LL01FE only if I was doing trips where I cannot reach operating oil temperature, so short trips.
they are not designed with any viscosity in mind. You can run 0W12 or 20W60.
Recommendation BMW gives, is based on specific markets, emission requirements, gas quality, competitive OCI to other manufacturers.In newer engines (B generation) I would stick to LL01 or LL04, but in older, anything MB229.5 or MB229.51/52 (which is comprehensively more stringent than LL01, or MB229.51/52 than LL04) will cut it.
So you can run higher HTHS ,or in your knowledge ,higher grade oils with no fear.
Higher HTHS gives more "cushion", for the lack if better word. More margin.. Manufacturers when choosing low HTHS oils, and with that improving efficiency, calculate majority of drivers ,groceries ,short trips,kids to school,road to work etc. and whether low HTHS will cause premature wear for that majority. But, if majority is the one expected to use vehicle hard, then you get approvals like Porsche A40 , C30,C40 or mb 229.5.
That tells you that there is no substitute for HTHS. much more higher hths or grade if you prefer ,though sometimes a lower grade oil has more hths than a higher grade.castrol is a brand that used to do this in its oils even though is not the most transparent blender for hths info.others give that info always in their tech sheet,like motul,mobil,..

PORSCHE APPROVALS /TRACK USE

When you do occasionally some drag races or track, you want to look for oil that has Porsche A40 approval bcs. it simulates 5hrs of Nurburgring run.Porsche A40 testing procedure: This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through: - 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving, - 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving, - 40 cold starts, - 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the “Nürburgring” racetrack, - 3.5 hours of “running-in” program Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter will be taken into account to grant the approval or not: - torque curve (internal friction), - oxidation of the oil, - Piston cleanliness and ring sticking, - Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 μm. - Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible. - Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method." (JamesGames)

BMW OXIDATION LIMITS

BMW LL approvals have extremely stringent oxidation requirements (and when I say extremely, it is impossible to emphasize it). That is bcs. emphasis is on OCI. Latest update of BMW LL approvals (2018) increased oxidation requirements and that increase eliminated most 0W oils such as Castrol, Mobil1 etc. Usual suspects. thing about 0W and LL01. All LL approvals went through major update in 2018. BMW increased oxidation requirement from ridiculous to extremely ridiculous. 0W30 and 0W40 oils that have HTHS above 3.5 are usually having such combination of base stocks that tends to produce bit higher oxidation. That is where my thinking goes when to reason why 0W30 and 0W40 lost LL01 and LL04.
BMW will never recommend 300V or similar oils bcs. oxidation of such oils is very high. Also, dispersants and detergents are not as present as in regular oils.

Street regular oils are jack of all trades. They have to do a lot of detergent and dispersant work. Short trips, trips to work, grocery, daycare etc. That is when oxidation happens and regular oils are much better than track or especially racing oils (300V). Motul has new Gen2 line up. It is Group III based but it “packs the punch.” However, unless you are going for LL01, I would go their 5W40 Sport line up for street/track use.
HTHS is just part of the story. Ester based oils are more thermally stable and have bit better heat dissipation. You can run 5W50 in summer, and 5W40 in winter. Not that ambient temperature matters in wear protection, but 5W40 will flow better below 100c during cold months when oil needs bit more time to reach operating temperature.
Ester based oils will always have very strong HTHS compared to other oils.

USING EXTRA CHEMICAL ADDITIVES

First, if you look in your manual you will see somewhere not to use additives. Let me explain why.
Flush chemicals are used when you have a dead engine, and that is your last option to see if you can bring it from dead. In the healthy engine, flush chemicals can dislodge some deposits that are a normal byproducts of lubrication, and those deposits can get stuck in oil lines and temper lubrication. That is why you should never flush the transmission, but always replenish fluid, meaning replace whatever you released from the transmission.

Additives? All good oils, approved oils, have carefully balanced additives. When you introduce anything to oil, you messed up that balance. Oxidation is messed up (potential sludge), detergent and dispersant properties etc. You actually have no idea how that additive will react with particular oil in your sump. Everything you need for an engine, you have in regular oil.

OIL ANALYSIS

Run TAN and TBN. As long as TBN is higher than TAN, you are good. • When doing oil analysis, order TBN & TAN
◦ TBN is your leftover additives in oil. Total Base Number.
◦ TAN is total acidic number. It you basically oxidation.
◦ TAN should not exceed TBN. Sometimes it is OK, but only if oils with a lot of ester is used like Redline.
◦ Without that you really don't know state of your oil.

You should not rely on an oil analysis right after switching motor oils as it will take time for the oil chemistry to produce results. This will take at least 2 oil change intervals so it's best to take an oil sample on the 2nd oil change of the same brand/grade/type.