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      09-22-2015, 10:12 AM   #89
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The VW scandal is causing a sell off of many European automaker shares. BMW is down over 4% today. The fear is if VW did it, everyone did.
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      09-22-2015, 10:19 AM   #90
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A BMW X5 was tested along side the cheating VWs and passed:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-vol...ons-standards/
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      09-22-2015, 10:42 AM   #91
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Such wonderful news. We just bought a 2015 sportwagen tdi.
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      09-22-2015, 10:48 AM   #92
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And yet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

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      09-22-2015, 10:55 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
Such wonderful news. We just bought a 2015 sportwagen tdi.
Demand that they take it back.
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      09-22-2015, 11:08 AM   #94
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Not sure what the right play is now.
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      09-22-2015, 11:12 AM   #95
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And here in the UK section.

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1174826

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      09-22-2015, 11:13 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
Such wonderful news. We just bought a 2015 sportwagen tdi.
Yeah you're pretty much screwed unfortunately.
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      09-22-2015, 11:20 AM   #97
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I don' think anyone will be screwed. If they don't buy it back, you'll be compensated one way or another for any reduced performance you may see as a result of any changes they make.

Or, you could simply not bring the car back to the dealer ever again.

Jump on that class action suit for sure though. Free money!
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      09-22-2015, 11:23 AM   #98
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ALL of the car companies cheat like this. VW was just unfortunate to get caught.

Well, except for Tesla I guess.
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      09-22-2015, 11:39 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
Not sure what the right play is now.
Relax and not worry about it?

It will just be a software update. When you get your recall letter, go in and have it updated. Not rocket surgery.
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      09-22-2015, 11:44 AM   #100
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Garage List
VW + Audi cheating.....

New VW logo
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      09-22-2015, 11:48 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Relax and not worry about it?

It will just be a software update. When you get your recall letter, go in and have it updated. Not rocket surgery.
Not exactly that simple. The software is clearly going to hurt performance and/or longevity. There's a reason they did this afterall.

I agree nothing to do but wait and see what the options are...but allowing them to reflash the car might not be a solution that some owners are willing to do.
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      09-22-2015, 12:00 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
I don' think anyone will be screwed. If they don't buy it back, you'll be compensated one way or another for any reduced performance you may see as a result of any changes they make.

Or, you could simply not bring the car back to the dealer ever again.

Jump on that class action suit for sure though. Free money!
Yeah, maybe he'll see some money come his way within the next 10-20 years.

The gears of justice turn slow.
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      09-22-2015, 12:02 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Relax and not worry about it?

It will just be a software update. When you get your recall letter, go in and have it updated. Not rocket surgery.
Lol yeah right. No way it's that simple.

There's a reason VW needed the cheat device to begin with. They, in all likelihood, can't pass emissions without cutting back power and gas mileage hence why they were using it. This also doesn't even speak to the long term reliability ramifications as well.

You update the software so it runs off the mapping used to cheat emissions, owners will have reduced power, significant drops in resale value, and reduced gas mileage and will be very, very, very pissed off.

Figuring out hardware/software updates to make the car legal and maintain the current performance will be significantly more difficult to figure out and very costly.

Also, you have to worry about whether or not you should opt out of any class action lawsuits. In all likelihood, you won't get much out of them and you forfeit the right to bring forth your own, individual lawsuit.

Last edited by fecurtis; 09-22-2015 at 12:07 PM..
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      09-22-2015, 12:03 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Relax and not worry about it?

It will just be a software update. When you get your recall letter, go in and have it updated. Not rocket surgery.
My tendency would be to get what money I could out of vw and not get it fixed, but it's my wife's car and she isn't happy about the pollution aspect. She wants it fixed but doesn't understand the mpg and power implications.
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      09-22-2015, 12:19 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
I don' think anyone will be screwed. If they don't buy it back, you'll be compensated one way or another for any reduced performance you may see as a result of any changes they make.

Or, you could simply not bring the car back to the dealer ever again.

Jump on that class action suit for sure though. Free money!
A class action is the last thing you want to be part of in this mess. The only winners in class actions are the scum sucking lawyers. With all the talk about how this will affect the other brand under VW such as Audi and Porsche, there is another brand that might be affected even though it's not a car...Ducati. Audi bought Ducati not that long ago.

Why I bring up Ducati is because I was named as part of a class action against Ducati due to the plastic used in the fuel tanks of the 848/1098/1198 superbikes. The blind Ducati fan boys thought that the class action settlement was a "good thing" to quote one of the fan boys on one of the Ducati forums. These idiots failed to actually read the terms of the class action which provided no monetary relief to the people affected, gave Ducati specific parameters to cover affected bikes (which negated the ability for the dealer to go to bat for you), set a defined coverage period, and allowed Ducati to use a subpar fix for the problem. The "fix" Ducati provided was to use the same crap plastic material but made the tanks a bit smaller to account for any expansion/deformation the Ethanol would eventually cause to the tank. I don't know about you but I can hardly see this as a fix to the problem. Under the terms Ducati didn't have to compensate people like me that did the extra step (the only known solution to the problem) to have our replacement tanks Caswell epoxy coated. Nor would Ducati allow for us to use the cost of the replacement tank as credit towards buying the Ducati Performance aluminum tanks. Shortly after this whole mess broke out, Ducati raised the prices of the aluminum tanks so they were no longer the same price as the plastic tanks. Even then there were those of us who would still pay the price difference along with having the tank painted on our dime. Ducati's response was to give us the middle finger.

So I provided the above personal experience as a warning to those that think a class action in this situation is going to be a "good thing." For me, I opted out of the Ducati class action and added verbiage to my response to the law firm about how I didn't want to be part of a settlement that would only line their pockets and do nothing for the people affected. Some of the Ducati forum members questioned why I did this. I said I wanted to preserve my rights to still sue Ducati if there were any other major issues resulting from this defect. I would have waved that right if I agreed to the class action.
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      09-22-2015, 12:40 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
My tendency would be to get what money I could out of vw and not get it fixed, but it's my wife's car and she isn't happy about the pollution aspect. She wants it fixed but doesn't understand the mpg and power implications.

Not fixing it may not be an option. There has been talk of some States not allowing these VWs to be re-registered without proof of it being fixed by the dealer.
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      09-22-2015, 12:40 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
Lol yeah right. No way it's that simple.

There's a reason VW needed the cheat device to begin with. They, in all likelihood, can't pass emissions without cutting back power and gas mileage hence why they were using it. This also doesn't even speak to the long term reliability ramifications as well.

You update the software so it runs off the mapping used to cheat emissions, owners will have reduced power, significant drops in resale value, and reduced gas mileage and will be very, very, very pissed off.

Figuring out hardware/software updates to make the car legal and maintain the current performance will be significantly more difficult to figure out and very costly.

Also, you have to worry about whether or not you should opt out of any class action lawsuits. In all likelihood, you won't get much out of them and you forfeit the right to bring forth your own, individual lawsuit.
It is purely software. They recently had a recall for this exact issue and fucked up the software. There is no actual "device".
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      09-22-2015, 12:43 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
A class action is the last thing you want to be part of in this mess. The only winners in class actions are the scum sucking lawyers. With all the talk about how this will affect the other brand under VW such as Audi and Porsche, there is another brand that might be affected even though it's not a car...Ducati. Audi bought Ducati not that long ago.

Why I bring up Ducati is because I was named as part of a class action against Ducati due to the plastic used in the fuel tanks of the 848/1098/1198 superbikes. The blind Ducati fan boys thought that the class action settlement was a "good thing" to quote one of the fan boys on one of the Ducati forums. These idiots failed to actually read the terms of the class action which provided no monetary relief to the people affected, gave Ducati specific parameters to cover affected bikes (which negated the ability for the dealer to go to bat for you), set a defined coverage period, and allowed Ducati to use a subpar fix for the problem. The "fix" Ducati provided was to use the same crap plastic material but made the tanks a bit smaller to account for any expansion/deformation the Ethanol would eventually cause to the tank. I don't know about you but I can hardly see this as a fix to the problem. Under the terms Ducati didn't have to compensate people like me that did the extra step (the only known solution to the problem) to have our replacement tanks Caswell epoxy coated. Nor would Ducati allow for us to use the cost of the replacement tank as credit towards buying the Ducati Performance aluminum tanks. Shortly after this whole mess broke out, Ducati raised the prices of the aluminum tanks so they were no longer the same price as the plastic tanks. Even then there were those of us who would still pay the price difference along with having the tank painted on our dime. Ducati's response was to give us the middle finger.

So I provided the above personal experience as a warning to those that think a class action in this situation is going to be a "good thing." For me, I opted out of the Ducati class action and added verbiage to my response to the law firm about how I didn't want to be part of a settlement that would only line their pockets and do nothing for the people affected. Some of the Ducati forum members questioned why I did this. I said I wanted to preserve my rights to still sue Ducati if there were any other major issues resulting from this defect. I would have waved that right if I agreed to the class action.

+1. Lawyers will make millions and owners will get free VW t-shirts and tote bags.
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      09-22-2015, 12:49 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
It is purely software. They recently had a recall for this exact issue and fucked up the software. There is no actual "device".
You really aren't following...

Let me see if I can break this down further since, for reasons unknown to me, you don't understand the complexity here.

Yes I know it's purely software but what you fail to understand (for some strange reason even though it's very straight forward) is that the software mapping used to "cheat" the EPA, if used all the time (since that's what the software update would do, always use the mapping so that the car becomes legal under federal law) the car would suffer from power and gas mileage degradation. Since VW had to cheat in the first place to pass EPA emissions testing, I'd be willing to bet the difference in power and fuel economy would be substantial if all the did was a simple software update.

My point is that it's likely that VW can't make the car legal to sell in the US unless they do one of two things:
1. Simply do the software update you suggested, in which case VW will have a PR nightmare on their hands since people are paying for a car that was sold under false pretenses (i.e. bogus power and mileage figures). If all of a sudden you needed to have a software update that decreases power and mileage by 10%, you wouldn't be too pleased would you? Even more so once you see the resale value of your car take a massive hit.
2. Maintain the affect cars' current power and mileage but in such a way that it can pass emissions...a software update alone won't be able to do this. This will require substantial engineering efforts.
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      09-22-2015, 12:51 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
You really aren't following...

Let me see if I can break this down further since, for reasons unknown to me, you don't understand the complexity here.

Yes I know it's purely software but what you fail to understand (for some strange reason even though it's very straight forward) is that the software mapping used to "cheat" the EPA, if used all the time (since that's what the software update would do, always use the mapping so that the car becomes legal under federal law) the car would suffer from power and gas mileage degradation. Since VW had to cheat in the first place to pass EPA emissions testing, I'd be willing to bet the difference in power and fuel economy would be substantial if all the did was a simple software update.

My point is that it's likely that VW can't make the car legal to sell in the US unless they do one of two things:
1. Simply do the software update you suggested, in which case VW will have a PR nightmare on their hands since people are paying for a car that was sold under false pretenses (i.e. bogus power and mileage figures).
2. Maintain the affect cars' current power and mileage but in such a way that it can pass emissions...a software update alone won't be able to do this. This will require substantial engineering efforts.
The fault is the Urea injection that tapers off. After the update, the car will require filling the the Adblue additive more often. That's it. It was a programming fuckup.
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