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      01-14-2017, 08:01 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
With huge EV subsidies (approx $1B) from the German Government is anyone surprised?
True. Take away the subsidies, these things go poof. Take away the socialist governments driving climate change agenda, subsidies go poof. Those governments are now going poof. Brexit, trump, italy, soon france. Angela Merkel with her 10 billion refugees and now terrorism starting, rape gangs, etc has to be loosing sleep.
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      01-14-2017, 08:02 AM   #68
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Electric is the future. There certainly is debate as to when more cars will be electrified but it is happening.

Disclaimer: I'm a non-practicing EE so I am bias towards EV but...

Being a car enthusiast I miss the high-revving v10 of my E60 M5 and I miss the grunt and brute of the v8 of my CTS-V. By every accord the new vehicles of today are quicker and faster with turbos and the more modern technology we have today.

The real debate here is "what is the goal?"

When the E60 M5 came out it was an F1 inspired business sedan that could rev to nearly 9000rpm, go over 200mph and could go around a track and be impressive as a 4 door sedan. At least when it was released.

The E60 M5 may have been the last iconic M car IMHO that made a statement that was undeniable. A statement that the auto industry couldn't ignore.

Today everything feels "muted" down where performance is very close between all brands. That's why I didn't buy a new M5 and decided to wait until the next M5. Too heavy, too disconnected. Fast? Yes. Luxurious? Yes. Did it make a statement? No.

What is holding back EV is battery technology. The current battery technology, Tesla included, hasn't evolved enough yet. They're too heavy or too volatile. I content that once we figure out the weight and safety issues of batteries that is when EV will evolve dramatically and get wide acceptance.

Today's cars need to loose weight. Carbon technology is the future with auto manufacturing. It have revolutionized other industries and it will do the same for auto. BMW is on the right track with their carbon technology.

To me the perfect next M5, as much as I hate to admit it, is a turbo V8, high torque that drives the rear wheels only with electric drive motors on the front wheels only. The front drive motors would work similar to the KERS system in F1 where there is only a short time they would engage and then the batteries would have to re-charge. It would also have a carbon chassis...or at least as much carbon possible to reduce weight by at least 250lbs. BTW...It needs to have a carbon roof with a sunroof as well.

Unfortunately, but the reality is, we are in an era where if we want a "fun and engaging" car to drive it's probably a manual M2.
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      01-14-2017, 08:14 AM   #69
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I agree with most of that but the biggie which you state is the battery tech. Why is it a certainty that this will happen? I remember 20 years ago it was fuel cells. All cars by now would be running on them. I don't see any. Why? Because they couldn't figure out how to do the tech.

The other thing is you state it "is" the future. Why? Electric cars are older than gas. The first one was made in 1895 and was competing with steam power to be the dominant power source. Gas powered internal combustion engines cane after electric. But they haven't surpassed gas in anything yet except initial launch which they always had. Current electric cars are just the modern version of dusting off something really old, like the horse, updating it to current standards, and saying look what I invented. Really nothing actually. You just took lithium battery tech the navy developed for quiet running hybrid subs using a nuclear reactor, which were in turn adapted for latop computers, took a couple thousand of those batteries and hooled them up to some electric motors that overheat if pushed. I dont see that being revolutionary.
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      01-14-2017, 08:34 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1
I agree with most of that but the biggie which you state is the battery tech. Why is it a certainty that this will happen? I remember 20 years ago it was fuel cells. All cars by now would be running on them. I don't see any. Why? Because they couldn't figure out how to do the tech.

The other thing is you state it "is" the future. Why? Electric cars are older than gas. But they haven't surpassed gas in anything yet except initial launch which they always had. Current electric cars are just the modern version of dusting off something really old, like the horse, updating it to current standards, and saying look what I invented. Really nothing actually. You just took lithium battery tech the navy developed for quiet running hybrid subs using a nuclear reactor, which were in turn adapted for latop computers, took a couple thousand of those batteries and hooled them up to some electric motors that overheat if pushed. I dont see that being revolutionary.
My worst case vision of the future.

#1 Interstate travel will largely be comprised of OTR truck only. EV or IC cars will be rare to nonexistent on interstate highways.

#2 Intracity will be EV's

#3 Public transportation will link people between major cities.

#4 Air travel takes up the slack.

#5 Governments will levy their road taxes on miles driven and logging will be done via road sensors or OTA.
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      01-14-2017, 09:52 AM   #71
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I'm not disputing the fact that electric powertrains have their benefits and are unbeatable for day-to-day driving, but from a performance aspect I just can't get behind them just yet.

I've driven the Model S and I don't understand all the hype about it being a "fun" car. It feels the exact same as an F10 5-series or A6: good but not what I'd call "fun" compared to any real performance car I've driven, let alone my E90. It's remarkable that Tesla was able to duplicate the driving dynamics of ICE mid-size luxury sedans, but that certainly doesn't make it a fun car. The straight-line acceleration is why most folks who know little about cars call the Tesla "fun," but as we all know there are far more to driving dynamics than acceleration. Combine all that with the hefty price tag and interior that isn't even befitting of a car with a $50,000 price tag, and I'd call the Model S highly overrated. It comes as no surprise to me that the majority of Tesla people I meet aren't traditional "car guys" like us, they are generally techies and are fond of Tesla because the way it goes about its business mirrors Apple or Google more than a traditional automotive company.
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      01-14-2017, 10:41 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by R N M View Post
Sad day - sound of the car is one of the main features for performance cars.

I guess we will have fake exhausts with exterior speakers in 10-20years.
Actually, it may be boring if silent electric cars were the "only" cars on the road. Meanwhile, listening to noisy gas cars next to me while driving my i3 is one of the most fascinating aspects of all. You can hear every little rattle, ping, down shift, etc. While the gas car may be all out faster, it is amazing how much commotion they make when just trying to keep up with the effortless acceleration of an electric car in normal driving situations. It is so funny listening to them revving their engines, and making their violent shifts while next to you. I mean obviously the Hell Cat and E46 M3 are quicker than my i3, but listen to all the commotion they make when just trying to keep pace with my i3 in normal in town driving.





The point is, if you like to drive fast and have fun everyday in normal driving around town, the i3 is actually a blast. It doesn't attract the attention of the cops with loud exhaust. You actually have fun with different kind of races, from Volts and Prius to faster BMW's that "should" beat you. You would be surprised what the i3 can keep up with around town with the flexible power band and immediate torque that it has. And yes, I will try and find video of some more surprising encounters with newer M3s. You would have been amazed at the results of a stop light encounter against an E92 M3. He sure was. Take this from a guy that likes to drive fast, and has had his share of fast BMW. Even years back, I have had some of the fastest stock turbo 335i BMWs around. I also ran low 11's in a stock turbo 135i. Racing away from every stop sign in town, I still average 100 MPGe in my i3. By comparison:

14 mpg: The average of my three 335i BMW I averaged in years of driving.
(30mpg highest highway mpg)

23 mpg: The average of my 2011 335d in 3 yrs of driving.
(45mpg highest highway mpg)

110 mpge: The average driving efficiency of my last 3 BMW i3s.
(160mpge achieved on a 90 mile trip from Anaheim Stadium to Ventura Cty)

Again, this is on average, accelerating faster on a daily basis around town than I did in my internal combustion powered BMWS. I will not go back to a petrol powered car in the near future. Neither will many others that have made the switch. FYI, I have had more than a small share of petrol and EV powered BMWs, for some perspective:

2004 BMW 325i Conv
2005 BMW M3 SMG Conv
2006 BMW M3 SMG Coupe
2007 BMW 335i sedan
2008 BMW 335i Coupe
2008 BMW 335 Sedan
2011 BMW 335d Sedan
2014 BMW i3 Giga BEV
2015 BMW i3 Terra BEV
2017 BMW i3 Terra 94Ah BEV.

and at the start of my electric car transition:
2012 Nissan LEAF
2014 Ford Focus EV

There is a possibility I would get the new 530e plug in when it comes out, as I could drive the whole work week using electric power, yet make it to Vegas on moments notice. But if they come out with the rumored i3 Sport with more HP, then I wholeheartedly would pick that over the 530e, without hesitation.

My i3 goes over 100 miles on a charge, and with the quick charge stations in Southern California, travel is really easy. And I prefer all my i3 BMWs to be pure electric, w/o any guess range extender so far. A Chevy Volt plug in hybrid takes two hours to gain about 25 miles of range. So if you want to go 75 miles on pure electric, it might take a 2 hour stop the charge. The i3 on the other hand will do 75 miles without having to charge in the first place. But "if" you did have to stop for an additional 25 miles of charge, it only takes about 10 minutes. I can drive to Anaheim Stadium, stop at the local Walmart to buy some snacks and have plenty of charge to make it back home for the 160 mile round trip. 100 miles covers 90% of the our daily driving needs. Remember 12000 miles a year, or 1000 miles a month is only about 33miles per day on average. So for those of you that think you need to always drive over 100 miles a day or so, that is a LOT of annual miles.

But don't take my word for it, I hope everyone does not buy an electric car, because there will more likely be congestion at the public charging stations I use, as BMW currently offers 2 years of EvGo free fast charging with their i3.

And lastly, as far as motor sounds are concerned, the turbine/jet-like whir that the i3 makes under acceleration is absolutely fantastic, and addictive. And no, it is not produced by some fake sound generator.
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      01-14-2017, 10:44 AM   #73
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I am curious to what this means for BMW's market segment. I love the new tech being developed out of the super high end brands such as Koenigsegg's Direct Drive system:http://koenigsegg.com/regera/
So the future drivetrains seen in performance cars are promising still. On the flip side how will BMW keep the sports car dynamic without abandoning their roots in motorsport?
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      01-14-2017, 11:10 AM   #74
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I drive the V10 M5 and will keep it for as long as possible

BUT, I drove the i3. I like the in-city capabilities of that car. What I crave is a smaller lower lighter version of that in a coupe/convertible format. Not a huge M6 but really, miata/z3 sized with an electric powertrain. I can use that for my daily commute which is mostly in-town.
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      01-14-2017, 11:32 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
My worst case vision of the future.

#1 Interstate travel will largely be comprised of OTR truck only. EV or IC cars will be rare to nonexistent on interstate highways.

#2 Intracity will be EV's

#3 Public transportation will link people between major cities.

#4 Air travel takes up the slack.

#5 Governments will levy their road taxes on miles driven and logging will be done via road sensors or OTA.
That sounds like hell.
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      01-14-2017, 12:16 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
I mentioned in the text it is the whole world finally waking up to this socialist sham, not just here. Finally.
I believe you know that in most places the fossil fuels will have more and more restrictions. You mentioned France and Italy. Both of them will restrict the fossil fuels more and more in the future. I think you are in denial as this is not even hard to find out. Talking about socialism in the same sentence is funny. Socialism is rather dead in practice and I tend to hear the word in the US only. Used by people like you. The future cars will be better no matter what is the exact technology used. So let's just relax
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      01-14-2017, 02:42 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
I believe you know that in most places the fossil fuels will have more and more restrictions. You mentioned France and Italy. Both of them will restrict the fossil fuels more and more in the future. I think you are in denial as this is not even hard to find out. Talking about socialism in the same sentence is funny. Socialism is rather dead in practice and I tend to hear the word in the US only. Used by people like you. The future cars will be better no matter what is the exact technology used. So let's just relax
Actually if they start going conservative, that may change too. Agreed on the socialism but the goal of climate changers is a more worldwide socialist approach at the expense of capitalism that I am not in favor of. Agreed about whatever it is will advance.
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      01-14-2017, 03:38 PM   #78
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I dont mind hybrids and EVs for standard BMWs but M cars should be ICE only until they are outlawed!

The i division has been a disaster for BMW. They cant give away the ugly i3 and i8 has $20-30k discounts.
Those resources could have been used to invest in ICE powertrains and overall engineering.

Sound of the car is what makes it come alive.
Ferrari, Lambo, 911 would not elicit same emotion if the cars made no sound.

Cold start on my M3 was something i looked forward to everytime.
Its what makes the car special and different and gives it personality.
For a commuter car, sure let it be EV.
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      01-14-2017, 03:39 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by R N M View Post
I dont mind hybrids and EVs for standard BMWs but M cars should be ICE only until they are outlawed!

The i division has been a disaster for BMW. They cant give away the ugly i3 and i8 has $20-30k discounts.
Those resources could have been used to invest in ICE powertrains and overall engineering.
This^
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      01-14-2017, 04:24 PM   #80
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the i8, like many mentioned above, was a total disaster. Not crazy hybrid tech compared to other maker's benchmark super cars, nor fast, nor super car like design, nor sound awesome, nor special/unique. It's a weird shaped hybrid with a 3 cylinder engine, that's it.
It's like a cool carbon fiber layered refrigerator.
No wonder even with 20~30K discount they are having hard time leaving the dealer lot.

I miss Albert Biermann era when he was involved with the M division...now he's at Hyundai creating N division of hot hatchbacks and plans to bring Hyundai back to Rally racing.

Meanwhile, BMW is busy making 50 different styles of LED tail lights and fuel efficient electric , silent M cars.
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      01-14-2017, 05:05 PM   #81
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I'm hoping this will not happen until after I die.
Right? Maybe the next generation can get on board with this but I certainly won't. Electric is boring. I could care less about how fast the P90d or whatever is. It's a boring car. No manual. No sound. No redline. No enjoyment. Silently going 100 mph sounds about as fun as riding the bullet train.
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      01-14-2017, 05:42 PM   #82
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I wouldn't mind a performance EV as a commuter, as long as I still get to keep a fast and loud V8/10/12 and won't be penalized in driving it. Sadly the 1% who actually enjoy cars won't have a say in this and may be barred from owning anything oil powered.
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      01-14-2017, 09:05 PM   #83
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... i3 ... It doesn't attract the attention of the cops with loud exhaust.
Unfortunately it attracts everybody's attention for a different reason

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      01-14-2017, 11:24 PM   #84
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I'm really saddened by where automotive development is going, or at least by soon not having an option for a fast, internal combustion engine, manual transmission car.

I wonder why car manufacturers are not investing R&D money in hydrogen cars?
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      01-14-2017, 11:44 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod182 View Post
... i3 ... It doesn't attract the attention of the cops with loud exhaust.
Unfortunately it attracts everybody's attention for a different reason

Lol I own an i3 as well but this made me laugh, thanks for the chuckle !!!
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      01-15-2017, 03:02 AM   #86
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I can understand hybrid/KERS but fully electric doesn't even sound right. I can't imagine Chris Harris driving an electric M2 and saying "this is like the grown up M3 of 2015, I know it's electric yes, but we're back to that bonkers amount of torque but in ghostly silence"

I'm sure that by the time M get to electric it'll be fantastic but it's very difficult to imagine. I look forward to future classic car shows
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      01-15-2017, 06:51 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoosTonian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by theroadrunner View Post
+1 sound is such a fun part of performance cars.

but with electric outperforming gasoline, like tesla ludicrous mode 0-60 in 2.3, electric Ms are inevitable.
2.3 seconds 0-60, but car is slower then a vw Jetta around the nurburging. Lol I'll stick with real performance cars
I love driving my Tesla every day - the daily driving experience is second to none. If I ever need to go for a rip around a track, though, I'll definitely rent a Jetta.
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      01-15-2017, 09:21 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agni View Post
How so? It only takes minutes for a full charge with Tesla's supercharger. Many people have done coast to coast trips. I think 400mi+ range cars are gonna the be the norm in 10yrs at the premium end.

I would think BMW and/or 3rd parties will have something similar in the future.
It's not as good as you think, and how many minutes do you have in mind, 59? A friend with a Tesla had to stop halfway to Austin, a 180 mile trip to supercharge because there was no place to charge where he was staying in Austin and the car's range would not get him to the nearest supercharger in San Marcos, about 35 miles away. As soon as you start driving faster than 60 mph (speed limit in the area is mostly 75) the range drops, and running AC or heat causes it to drop lots more. That's not to mention the Model S is something like $80k and the battery loses capacity over time.

When there are a lot of electric cars charging stations will require a lot of space. It takes about 5 minutes to pump gasoline. Assuming a 30 minute charging time 6 times as many parking spots are required. That costs. There will be government fees and taxes to make up for the lost gas tax revenue. If you ask me, it's a bleak future for driving.
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