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      12-10-2018, 07:47 AM   #1145
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      12-10-2018, 08:04 AM   #1146
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No.

I know you're smart enough to recognize the difference between what Nixon did and what happened to Trump's boys.
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      12-10-2018, 08:06 AM   #1147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Trump won fair and square, why can't the libs accept the will of the People?


Yeah, who gives a fuck if he committed felonies along the way - he won the election, so he's untouchable.

Seems legit....

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      12-10-2018, 08:06 AM   #1148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I am curious on what people think the Russians did to get Trump the victory. It doesn't seem like anyone had a problem on election day, the democrats were sure Hillary was going to win.

So what happened after election day that everyone started blaming the Russians? Are we thinking Russians hacked the voting machines to get Trump the victory?
Google it...
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      12-10-2018, 08:47 AM   #1149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
.
You don't seem to truly understand Watergate.
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      12-10-2018, 08:49 AM   #1150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I am curious on what people think the Russians did to get Trump the victory. It doesn't seem like anyone had a problem on election day, the democrats were sure Hillary was going to win.

So what happened after election day that everyone started blaming the Russians? Are we thinking Russians hacked the voting machines to get Trump the victory?
Google it...
His statement was mind-boggling in the extreme. Is he trolling , or just that willfully forgetful?
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      12-10-2018, 09:01 AM   #1151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
His statement was mind-boggling in the extreme. Is he trolling , or just that willfully forgetful?
I Googled it, and it seems like we are referring to Russian trolls and wiki leaks.

Again, nobody seemed to be worried about either on election day. All polls showed Hillary winning, and her supporters were not worried at all.

But ok, we realized the impact later. So now we not only have to find a Trump link to Russia, we also have to find a link that he told Russia to do this?

Then we have wiki leaks, an organization that was releasing information about the U.S government way before Trump came around. We couldn't prove their sources before and now we think we are going to find a connection to Trump?

How do we not see how much money we are wasting on nothing. There is no doubt in my head that Trump is a criminal in some way or form, but if you guys really think we are going to find a link from Trump to Russian trolls or Wiki leaks you are delusional.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Trump is the one leaking information to make it seem like he was involved with Russia. This only diverts attention from his policies, and when no link is found it almost guarantees him a reelection.

While we are at it, why would trump even need Russia to troll for him? He could of easily hired some people in Asia to do it for him. Is there anything illegal about hiring people to spread Trump propaganda online?

Last edited by dsad1; 12-10-2018 at 09:07 AM..
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      12-10-2018, 09:07 AM   #1152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I Googled it, and it seems like we are referring to Russian trolls and wiki leaks.

Again, nobody seemed to be worried about either on election day. All polls showed Hillary winning, and her supporters were not worried at all.

But ok, we realized the impact later. So now we not only have to find a Trump link to Russia, we also have to find a link that he told Russia to do this?

Then we have wiki leaks, an organization that was releasing information about the U.S government way before Trump came around. We couldn't prove their sources before and now we think we are going to find a connection to Trump?

How do we not see how much money we are wasting on nothing. There is no doubt in my head that Trump is a criminal in some way or form, but if you guys really think we are going to find a link from Trump to Russian trolls or Wiki leaks you are delusional.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Trump is the one leaking information to make it seem like he was involved with Russia. This only diverts attention from his policies, and when no link is found it almost guarantees him a reelection.

While we are at it, why would trump even need Russia to troll for him? He could of easily hired some people in Asia to do it for him. Is there anything illegal about hiring people to spread Trump propaganda online?
TDS

That’s the answer to all your questions and it’s very much alive and well on this forum. Don’t bother looking for logic, sanity or reasonableness in those afflicted, you won’t find it.

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      12-10-2018, 09:12 AM   #1153
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Originally Posted by domino_z View Post
in that case it's fair game on former presidents, and even politicians, to be investigated for their financial dealings in equal measure

someone needs to explain how you can hold public office, and leave with 8 figure bank accounts
Well, ideally congress, the press, and the American people should be holding the POTUS to a certain level of accountability while he/she is in office so we don't have to investigate after.
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      12-10-2018, 09:30 AM   #1154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I Googled it, and it seems like we are referring to Russian trolls and wiki leaks.

Again, nobody seemed to be worried about either on election day. All polls showed Hillary winning, and her supporters were not worried at all.
Who is "nobody"? I honestly don't remember much coverage of Russia's efforts prior to election day. I'm sure government officials were aware prior to that, but I'm not sure how aware the public was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
But ok, we realized the impact later. So now we not only have to find a Trump link to Russia, we also have to find a link that he told Russia to do this?
"Have to find"? No. "Should investigate to determine if"? Absolutely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
Then we have wiki leaks, an organization that was releasing information about the U.S government way before Trump came around. We couldn't prove their sources before and now we think we are going to find a connection to Trump?
A connection beyond Trump's constant praise of them during a certain time frame of the campaign, you mean? Whether there is a direct connection between the Trump team and Wikileaks/Assange is an aside and not necessarily germane to the investigation, IMO. However, if there was a connection, the problems that arise from that scenario should be obvious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
How do we not see how much money we are wasting on nothing. There is no doubt in my head that Trump is a criminal in some way or form, but if you guys really think we are going to find a link from Trump to Russian trolls or Wiki leaks you are delusional.
We're you lamenting the same "wasting of money" on the 7 investigations into Benghazi? IF this (Trump coordinating with hostile foreign powers) happened, it's a huge deal and is unprecedented. I don't find it a "waste of money" to investigate whether it actually took place or not. Now, if Mueller returns no evidence of Trump being involved with Russia/Wikileaks efforts, I would not support another investigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Trump is the one leaking information to make it seem like he was involved with Russia. This only diverts attention from his policies, and when no link is found it almost guarantees him a reelection.
We'll agree to disagree on that assessment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
While we are at it, why would trump even need Russia to troll for him? He could of easily hired some people in Asia to do it for him. Is there anything illegal about hiring people to spread Trump propaganda online?
"Need"? Who knows. Pretty obvious why he would want it, though - especially if it was an unsolicited offer of help.

I'm not a campaign law expert, but I don't think Trump hiring an Asian firm to spread propaganda for him would be illegal. An Asian firm doing it for free would be, however.
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      12-10-2018, 09:55 AM   #1155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
No.

I know you're smart enough to recognize the difference between what Nixon did and what happened to Trump's boys.
Why did you vote for Trump in the first place?
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      12-10-2018, 09:59 AM   #1156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Who is "nobody"? I honestly don't remember much coverage of Russia's efforts prior to election day. I'm sure government officials were aware prior to that, but I'm not sure how aware the public was.



"Have to find"? No. "Should investigate to determine if"? Absolutely.




A connection beyond Trump's constant praise of them during a certain time frame of the campaign, you mean? Whether there is a direct connection between the Trump team and Wikileaks/Assange is an aside and not necessarily germane to the investigation, IMO. However, if there was a connection, the problems that arise from that scenario should be obvious.




We're you lamenting the same "wasting of money" on the 7 investigations into Benghazi? IF this (Trump coordinating with hostile foreign powers) happened, it's a huge deal and is unprecedented. I don't find it a "waste of money" to investigate whether it actually took place or not. Now, if Mueller returns no evidence of Trump being involved with Russia/Wikileaks efforts, I would not support another investigation.



We'll agree to disagree on that assessment.



"Need"? Who knows. Pretty obvious why he would want it, though - especially if it was an unsolicited offer of help.

I'm not a campaign law expert, but I don't think Trump hiring an Asian firm to spread propaganda for him would be illegal. An Asian firm doing it for free would be, however.

So it seems like the wikileak part doesn't matter, just the Russian part.

I knew I wasn't voting for Trump or Hillary, so I honestly didn't pay much attention to the drama, I didn't realize the Russian thing didn't come into play until after the election. But again, the democrats thought they had it in the bag, so it's odd that they only noticed the supposed huge impact until after the elections.

Yes I thought Benghazi was a huge waste of money, the outcome wouldn't have made a difference in my mind. Our soldiers died, finding out who made the mistake won't bring them back. Our intelligence has made many mistakes over the years. Why was there no investigation on the CIA for 9/11? There was obviously mistakes made there as well. Don't get me wrong, don't want a 9/11 investigation either.

At this point if we are really just worried about Trump collusion with Russia over trolls and misinformation being posted online. A. I don't see how we will ever be able to find that link. We couldn't even prove that Russia rigged the world cup vote, let alone link them to shooting down a passenger plane that they don't deny. B. I don't see why Trump even needed Russia for that. Why put yourself at risk with a foreign country when you can just do it yourself.
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      12-10-2018, 10:00 AM   #1157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Why did you vote for Trump in the first place?
Because he is ever-so-slightly less awful than Hillary.

Why do you ask? What does that have to do with the difference between Watergate and the DoJ surveillance of one of the guys associated with Trump's campaign?
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      12-10-2018, 10:06 AM   #1158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
So it seems like the wikileak part doesn't matter, just the Russian part.
Huh? No, the "Russia part" definitely matters and the "Wikileaks part" might matter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I knew I wasn't voting for Trump or Hillary, so I honestly didn't pay much attention to the drama, I didn't realize the Russian thing didn't come into play until after the election. But again, the democrats thought they had it in the bag, so it's odd that they only noticed the supposed huge impact until after the elections.
Obama and the DoJ are both on record as saying that they didn't publicize the information on Russia's efforts because it would have been seen as an attempt to influence the election - and it certainly would have been seen as such by most conservatives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
Yes I thought Benghazi was a huge waste of money, the outcome wouldn't have made a difference in my mind. Our soldiers died, finding out who made the mistake won't bring them back. Our intelligence has made many mistakes over the years. Why was there no investigation on the CIA for 9/11? There was obviously mistakes made there as well. Don't get me wrong, don't want a 9/11 investigation either.
Glad we're on the same page there. I was fine with the original investigation - to determine if there was negligence that lead to the deaths of government employees (they weren't currently in the military) and the Ambassador. The follow-on investigations were nothing but petty partisanship.


Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
At this point if we are really just worried about Trump collusion with Russia over trolls and misinformation being posted online. A. I don't see how we will ever be able to find that link. We couldn't even prove that Russia rigged the world cup vote, let alone link them to shooting down a passenger plane that they don't deny. B. I don't see why Trump even needed Russia for that. Why put yourself at risk with a foreign country when you can just do it yourself.
Argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy. People do shit that "doesn't make sense" all the time.
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      12-10-2018, 10:19 AM   #1159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post

Argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy. People do shit that "doesn't make sense" all the time.
True, but there doesn't seem like there was any real proof of Trump/Russia collusion when this investigation started. So you would think we would of at least had a concrete motive for us to go about spending this type of money and time.
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      12-10-2018, 10:41 AM   #1160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
True, but there doesn't seem like there was any real proof of Trump/Russia collusion when this investigation started. So you would think we would of at least had a concrete motive for us to go about spending this type of money and time.
If there was already proof, there wouldn't need to be an investigation.

He/they did have a concrete motive - winning the Presidency.
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      12-10-2018, 11:07 AM   #1161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
If there was already proof, there wouldn't need to be an investigation.

He/they did have a concrete motive - winning the Presidency.
I was alluding that he didn't need the Russians for what we are accusing them of doing, he could of done it on his own legally. So there isn't much of a motive as to why use the Russians.

But that doesn't matter since we are already in this, and now we are just waiting for answers.

I know you stated you wouldn't support another investigation if nothing is found. But would you not be mad if we were given no proof of collusion at all? If the reason this investigation started was because Trumps team met with a Russian or two, and it ends up those meetings had nothing to do with collusion. Wouldn't it upset you that they went into this without enough evidence?
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      12-10-2018, 11:19 AM   #1162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I was alluding that he didn't need the Russians for what we are accusing them of doing, he could of done it on his own legally. So there isn't much of a motive as to why use the Russians.

But that doesn't matter since we are already in this, and now we are just waiting for answers.

I know you stated you wouldn't support another investigation if nothing is found. But would you not be mad if we were given no proof of collusion at all? If the reason this investigation started was because Trumps team met with a Russian or two, and it ends up those meetings had nothing to do with collusion. Wouldn't it upset you that they went into this without enough evidence?
The investigation did not come up out of thin air as much as some people try to claim. The Obama administration had proof that Russia was trying to influence the election. Our intelligence agencies had proof. Like was said earlier, the Obama administration decided not let that information out in fear of being accused of trying to influence the election.
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      12-10-2018, 11:26 AM   #1163
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
The investigation did not come up out of thin air as much as some people try to claim. The Obama administration had proof that Russia was trying to influence the election. Our intelligence agencies had proof. Like was said earlier, the Obama administration decided not let that information out in fear of being accused of trying to influence the election.
I am sick at home today, so maybe I am over analyzing your answer, but I am not trying to be a smart ass, really just curious.

I understand they had proof of Russian meddling, but do we know if they had anything connecting that to Trump outside of a couple meetings Trumps team had with a couple Russians?
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      12-10-2018, 11:30 AM   #1164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I am sick at home today, so maybe I am over analyzing your answer, but I am not trying to be a smart ass, really just curious.

I understand they had proof of Russian meddling, but do we know if they had anything connecting that to Trump outside of a couple meetings Trumps team had with a couple Russians?
Well, you had Flynn and Manafort who were both known to have connections with some very powerful people in Russia. Manafort was known for his pro-Russian involvement in Ukraine and influence in that election. Flynn was known to be compromised already and why multiple people had warned the incoming Trump administration to stay away from Flynn. The Russian propaganda was very much anti-Hillary.

There was a lot of coincidences. Talk to any good investigator, there is no such thing as a coincidence.

Now can any of that be proved? Probably not.
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      12-10-2018, 11:51 AM   #1165
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In addition Trump was still trying to negotiate his precious trump tower in moscow during the election (when he said he wasnt). Russia knew Trump was lying when he said that which gave Russia leverage over Trump. The public knows that today, but that could have been known much earlier.

Trump became a Russian asset as soon as Russia knew he was lying.
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      12-10-2018, 12:00 PM   #1166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I am sick at home today, so maybe I am over analyzing your answer, but I am not trying to be a smart ass, really just curious.

I understand they had proof of Russian meddling, but do we know if they had anything connecting that to Trump outside of a couple meetings Trumps team had with a couple Russians?
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/09/64344...-investigation
Indicted: Russian Intelligence
In July 2018, the Justice Department brought charges against 12 Russian intelligence officers on a litany of alleged crimes related to Russia's hacking of the Democratic National Committee, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee and the Clinton presidential campaign.

Indicted: Russian Internet trolls
A federal grand jury indicted 13 Russians and three Russian entities in February 2018 for what Rosenstein described to reporters as "information warfare" with "the stated goal of spreading distrust towards the candidates and the political system in general."

Indicted: Konstantin Kilimnik
Konstantin Kilimnik worked alongside Paul Manafort in Ukraine for more than a decade. He started as a translator, and later helped run his lobbying operations in Kiev, according to Politico.
In June 2018, the special counsel's office charged Kilimnik with obstruction of justice for allegedly trying to persuade witnesses to lie to the jury in the government's then-pending case against Manafort. Ultimately, Manafort pleaded guilty and the matter did not go to trial.

Plus all the figures involved in the Trump campaign and administration.
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