[JVFan]

Originally Posted by JamieA

Hey JV a personal comment like that isn't good. His children love PowerRangers and in my book, if I had children, then anything that made them happy (within reason) I would be a fan of too. I know from my nephews, nothing warms the heart more than the smile of a happy child.

I did note in one of his posts that he drew a line at Barbie or whatever it was his daughter loves.

You miss the pun dear friend. I have been here a while and I know the lad...I know the history...it was a joke within a joke....

[ben1364]

JamieA wrote in part, "...the US isn't generally regarded as a driver's market, hence the plethora of SUVs and average cars..."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I agree. This is the reason for my earlier post about cross-shopping the 3-Series BMW against the little Lexus. As I said, the only valid points of comparison are the price point and the overal dimensions. Both are well-crafted machines but the Lexus is a small luxury car while the 3 er is a small driver's car. Comparisons of straight line acceleration under controlled (track) conditions are meaningless in the real world. If straight line accelertion is the deciding point, there are other brands that excell at lower prices.

[ZenDriver]

Europeans value dynamic capability.

I wonder how much longer that is going to last.

When I was in England a few months ago, the speed control measures were simply mind boggling. It was as if driving 10kph over the speed limit was a hanging offence over there. Traffic cops everywhere. Cameras on every corner. Automated speed traps, red light cameras and even trucks tracking your license plates. I swear they charge a tax every time each tire makes a complete rotation on a London street.

I use to love England, but it's full up 1984 in London. I hear they can do a police door bust on houses where a TV is detected without having paid the "TV Tax." That is downright Unamerican.

So how much longer are our English friends going to keep buying up cars like BMWs when countries like England are well on their way to fully automated GPS speed limit enforcement and other draconian driving laws? How far behind England is Germany? Or France?

And the real question is, what will happen to the sports sedan when all of that happens?

[ben1364]

RyBMW wrote in part, "...The only true competitor, IMHO, is the Infiniti G35. The next gen G35 will be something to look forward to..."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Agreed. I came very close to buying a G35 this time but 30+ years of loyalty kept me in the BMW fold.The current G35 is getting old but the next one will undoubtedly be much, much closer.

[EBMCS03]

Thats so lame! Comparing a 05 to a 06 when the 06 is alread out!

I just hope buyers do their own HW.

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by ZenDriver

I wonder how much longer that is going to last.

When I was in England a few months ago, the speed control measures were simply mind boggling. It was as if driving 10kph over the speed limit was a hanging offence over there. Traffic cops everywhere. Cameras on every corner. Automated speed traps, red light cameras and even trucks tracking your license plates. I swear they charge a tax every time each tire makes a complete rotation on a London street.

I use to love England, but it's full up 1984 in London. I hear they can do a police door bust on houses where a TV is detected without having paid the "TV Tax." That is downright Unamerican.

So how much longer are our English friends going to keep buying up cars like BMWs when countries like England are well on their way to fully automated GPS speed limit enforcement and other draconian driving laws? How far behind England is Germany? Or France?

And the real question is, what will happen to the sports sedan when all of that happens?

Hey Zen, you really do make some excellent points here. I too am worried where the over zealous application of technology by law enforcement agencies will take us, and whether it will start to become too intrusive.

I don't know what it is like in other parts of the world, but here is what it is like here for those who are interested...

In Australia there is a debate which has been going for over a year now discussing the government revenue raising masquerading as a safety campaign. Governments are claiming that speed contributes to a majority of road accidents when their own research, and the research of universities clearly shows lack of driver training, driver attitude, and driver inattention being the major causes with speed 8th on the list.

Trouble is, focusing on speed and drink driving is easy and makes it look like the government is doing something about the issue of road deaths. But what it is really doing is ignoring the needs of young drivers who tragically kill themselves in disproportinate numbers because the govenment here does not provide appropriate support for driver training, or require that drivers are tested in emergency situations...

Far easier to focus on speed. In Oz the statistics show that road deaths are flatlined in absolute numbers and declining in real terms (ie per car or per Km driven). Despite the proliferation of speed cameras, laser gun speed detection, double demerit points during holiday periods, the stats haven't fallen. The last time they did fall was during the 90s when air bags started to become common on the national fleet, the time before that was in the 80s when drink driving was targeted, and the time before that was in the 70s when seatbelts were made mandatory.

Governments Australia wide won't do anything, because they are addicted to the $1Bn of river of cash that is the speeding fine revenue they collect each year. Even though they say this is all for our own good, speed cameras are still placed on straight multi-lane highways rather than at notorious black spots where people are actually killed.

Worse still, in the most blatant revenue raising scheme yet, speed tollerances have been reduced in two states to 1Km/h and 3Km/h, even though Australian Standards dictacte a speedo can be plus or minus 5% out. So drivers are being asked to stick to speed tollerances theoretically not achievable with the equipment the australian standard allows to be installed in vehicles. Imaine getting booked for going 1Km/h over the speed limit on a slight decline on a wide, safe road. This is a real situation in one state in Australia.

This causes drivers to drive around watching their speedos rather than concentrating on the road and this results in higher crash rates. On a major freeway in Melbourne there was an issue with the speed cameras being faulty when they clocked a Datsun 120Y doing 180Km/h In a rare show of public anger over this issue, the government was forced to switch the cameras off, and the crash rate actually fell by something like half for that period and promptly increased when the cameras were recommissioned. Safety my hairy butt!!

Luckily I live in a state that allows a tollerance of 10Km/h.

I dread the day a GPS system is mandatory in all vehicles and if you speed your fine is emailed to you before you get home... and meanwhile too many people are killing themselves on our roads because governments won't bite the bullet and do the serious work required to actually solve problems at their root cause. Instead we are all brainwashed to believe the dumbed down notion that if we just stick to the speed limit we will be safe, forget about the art and skill of attentive and safe driving habits.

Pity is that wowser car haters have the ear of the government and to my horror automobile associations are complicit rather than representing the driving public who fund them. Meanwhile the rights of law obiding citizens who like to enjoy driving are being whittled away day by day. I got the E90 thinking this is probably the last time it will be practical to own a good car that is actually fun to drive...

Well that is my rant for the day

What experience do othes have with government attitudes in other countries?

[ON325i]

My apples sells better than your oranges, i'm better!
No!
My mangos sells better than your rice, i'm better!


Come on, just go fall in love with the brand you love. i.e. BMW

[ben1364]

Well said, Jamie.

[RedStripe]

You should submit something like this to your newspaper as an op-ed piece.

Originally Posted by JamieA

...I dread the day a GPS system is mandatory in all vehicles and if you speed your fine is emailed to you before you get home... and meanwhile too many people are killing themselves on our roads because governments won't bite the bullet and do the serious work required to actually solve problems at their root cause. Instead we are all brainwashed to believe the dumbed down notion that if we just stick to the speed limit we will be safe, forget about the art and skill of attentive and safe driving habits.

Pity is that wowser car haters have the ear of the government and to my horror automobile associations are complicit rather than representing the driving public who fund them. Meanwhile the rights of law obiding citizens who like to enjoy driving are being whittled away day by day. I got the E90 thinking this is probably the last time it will be practical to own a good car that is actually fun to drive...

[en3rgie]

Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y

I'm sure if you're in a Lexus, Mercedes, Infiniti, Audi forum...etc...
they'll all say that their brand is the superior!
It's an endless debate......blah blah blah.....

Good night!

No everyone of those manufactures have one objective when it comes to there entry level model

dethrone the three


And no matter what they come out with whatever overblown numbers they will always be making a car like a BMW but not a BMW


bmw is the !!!!!!ALPHA AND THE OMEGA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by northerncalguy

Deceptive indeed -- this is done on a daily basis. Nike doesn't tell you their shoes cost 15 cents to make. KFC has no signs in their restaurant saying they force feed chickens with hormones to get more meat. This is just another case of corporate america trying to sneak a fast one past us. Buyer beware!!!

Um....that would be Corporate JAPAN!!!

....in case you guys in CA forgot that GM, Ford and Chrysler (sort of?) are American.

[bmwbenz0101]

look at the BMW webpage you can only compare the 3 to the IS300..So BMW is doing the same thing as lexus lol.

[D-Rock]

Originally Posted by ZenDriver

Stop smoking crack.

Lexus is the value brand designed for people who would have bought a Toyota but have more money. They use to default to buying Mercedes, but those quality problems have had them flocking towards the Lexus dealership over the last few years.

Other then that, what has Lexus ever pushed forward? Where have they ever innovated in regards to product technology? What significant thing has Lexus done in the showroom or on the racetrack?

Nothing. The Lexus gray matter gets used to help Lexus figure out how to build a car more efficiently then Mercede/BMW/Audi- they are very good at it. Other then that however, nobody will ever remember the IS 350 or the GS whatever- Lexus has never made a memorable car in their history and they never will.

Better brand my ass...


P.S.

On a lark I called Lexus of Portland. Apparently, Lexus of North America has decided the Pacific Northwest will not be getting any IS250s with the manual transmission. The guy told me, no shit, I could special order one and see it in 9 months. Nice way to chase after the spinning propellers boys.

He is right

[tima]

I bought an E90 but before doing so I test drove a IS250. The lexus had no soul.

After a fashion, that sums it up nicely for me.

If you prefer to ride comfortably and reliably while holding onto a steering wheel, Lexus may very well be your car.

If you like to drive, buy a Bimmer.

If you're not into driving, you have different priorities than those targeted by BMW. They have paid their dues for many years in connecting drivers with their car and with the road - and they do it very very well. BMW have earned their spot as the sport sedan benchmark against which others are measured.

Lexus has built their reputation on different priorities - perhaps to be the Ultimate Riding Machine - there's nothing wrong with that.

I love to drive, so my choice was simple.

Baa Ram Ewe

[tak6]

These are just all companies trying to knock each other off for your attention, dont get sucked in by marketing? well then don't say this brand is better than that look at the actual car, what you want then you'll have your opinion.

I drive a Toyota Altezza and an M3

The toyota altezza is directly imported from Japan its the same as the IS300 but lighter and more powerful (4 cylinder engine instead of 6) and has the most well balanced chasis compared to any car.. and I mean any, with a set of coilovers I could outhandle the well known MX-5, that is why I went through all the hassle just to import one. Now it can outrun my M3, well by sacrificing $10K, with roll cages and rear seats taken off etc (its not road legal)... I know most ppl in this forum wouldn't do it but thats why I got this car, while my M3 is sitting pretty with close to stock specs.

So i've seen and have been in both worlds, they're all good its just you opinion.
The point is don't be taken in by the marketing, I went through alot of work just to get a toyota instead of a lexus. So dont buy the badge

[greekbmw]

all i know is i'd rather have my beautiful e90 330i than a over priced toyota. i had a e46 325i and a friend of mine has a 01 lexus is300 and let me tell you i would much rather have the 325 than the 300. lexus just looks cheap to me and it doesnt have that presence to the road like a bmw has. all in all bmw is better than lexus but its just my opinion

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by icedragon

So even though I ordered my 325xi, my friend persuaded me to go see the IS250 AWD. On the outside, the E90 and IS have very different design cues. The E90 appears more bold and aggressive with sharp lines and creases. The IS has a simple, understated elegance to it. In terms of which one looks better, I think that's clearly subjective and dependant on your design preferences.

Anyway, I talked to a sales rep to get some more info. I asked him to compare the 325xi to the IS250 AWD. He said no problem, Lexus had developed competition comparison sheets, so he started to read the 325xi vs. IS250 AWD sheet. Unfortunately, Lexus North America has supplied its sales reps with UNACCEPTABLY misleading comparison sheets. The sales rep said that the 325xi only had 184 hp, no push start button, and no tire pressure monitoring system. I was like, WTH? That can't be right! Turned out the sheet compared the 2006 IS 250 to the 2005 BMW 325xi. I blatantly said to him, "WTH? Why does Lexus compare the 2006 IS 250 to the 2005 325xi? It should compare the 2006 IS 250 to the 2006 325xi! That’s misleading marketing. The 2006 325xi was available since September, long before the IS introduction. There is no reason why Lexus could not have properly compared the 2 cars." I felt rather outraged, not at the sales rep, but in Lexus North America for trying to scam unsuspecting customers. So I skipped the test drive and promptly left the Lexus dealership. I just can't stand sneaky people, and in this case, a sneaky corporation!

The automotive section in this past fridays Atlanta Journal Constitution had a similiar erroer when comparing the new IS with the 3-series. The author of the article (from a San Antonio paper) said the 325 had 184 HP, and the 330 only had 225 HP. He must have pulled it straight from Lexus verbage. True the IS350 has over 300 hp, but the 330 I6 and the IS350 both have about the same hp/liter.

[Mangelo]

Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y

Honestly....I think a lot of E90's are having second thoughts about their cars since the Lexus IS250/350 came out. IMO...Lexus is the better brand....but I like the styling of my 330i better...and that's why I bought the car over the Lexus IS350. It's all about personal preference! There's no shame in admitting that the other car is better....

Why didn't you just start a thread titled "Lexus is better but I bought a BMW because it's HOT, now everyone because I am "

In my opinion, you messed this thread up

The point was why would Lexus compare their 06 is250 to an 05 bmw 325xi There will be some buyers out there who get "bought" by this and choose to purchase a vehicle on the spot w/out giving other options a try.

[timzerofive]

I gotta put in my 2 cent. Before I bought the 330i, I was one of those guys who laughs at the joke about the porcupine and bmw owners about the prick being on the inside. It was rather true that BMW owners had a rather snobby reputation. I favored Japanese cars, and I cheered to myself when I read on magazines that some cheaper Japanese cars beats a BMW in comparison. The notion always were that if I can pay less for a "better built" car, why would I buy a BMW? That question, as I've came to realize, can only be answered after you driven a BMW. There's just a sense that the car was put together to be driven. Not to have a luxury interior, not to have the best styling, or to be the fastest of the class, but to be driven, as what a car is meant to do.

When I first got the car, I had written about my experience with the test drive of a G35 and the 330, but I didn't mention I test drove many other cars during the few months I was shopping for a car. Nothing came close to the smoothness of the 330i.

I have to admit as I saw the IS this past weekend, it's a very well made car that is amongst the top of the class. The driver's seat is comfortable that exceed a C class, but not up to par with the 330. It's very comfortable, but lack the feel of a seat that conforms to your back like the 330. The interior looks very classy, but on closer inspection, there are a few plastic panels that looks rather cheap, which cannot be said on the 330, I would say actually the G35 beats it. Although overall, the lexus does feel richer. The drive, its powerful, and the usual trouble free toyota acceleration, but just lacks that bit of grunt to make your addrenaline pumping like the 330 does. When it comes down to the bottom line, the only thing I CAN say, as I have no words of explaining it, is that it's not a BMW. That's its downfall.

If you never taken your bmw to a mountain road and drive at 70mph on 30mph turns, then you should probably buy the IS. If at this moment, you're thinking "This guy's such an ass for disobeying traffic laws and endangering other people," you should probably buy the IS. If you only care about what your car can do on papers, and not constantly looking for ways to seek the car's limit, you should probably buy the IS.

As far as Lexus using the marketing trick to compare itself to BMW, is pretty much what every company does. There's not a lot to truth in marketing anymore these days. There's no reason to get all upset about it, just be glad that you found out before you made your decision. Also, I would think they just made your decision for you. They are clearly saying their IS250 AWD is comparable to the 2005 325xi, but not the 2006. So unless you are in the market for a 2005 one, 2006 is better then lexus.

My name is Tim and that's my opinion.

[davinet78]

there is no car like a german built car especially if its a bmw

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by ZenDriver

I wonder how much longer that is going to last.

When I was in England a few months ago, the speed control measures were simply mind boggling. It was as if driving 10kph over the speed limit was a hanging offence over there. Traffic cops everywhere. Cameras on every corner. Automated speed traps, red light cameras and even trucks tracking your license plates. I swear they charge a tax every time each tire makes a complete rotation on a London street.

I use to love England, but it's full up 1984 in London. I hear they can do a police door bust on houses where a TV is detected without having paid the "TV Tax." That is downright Unamerican.

So how much longer are our English friends going to keep buying up cars like BMWs when countries like England are well on their way to fully automated GPS speed limit enforcement and other draconian driving laws? How far behind England is Germany? Or France?

And the real question is, what will happen to the sports sedan when all of that happens?

There's no other way for their gov't to support the huge financial burden of their social programs. They have to tax the crap out of their citizens.

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by Socom

There's no other way for their gov't to support the huge financial burden of their social programs. They have to tax the crap out of their citizens.

They shouldn't call it taxation then, but gouging