Anyone miss driving a manual?

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by RM7

I've owned a DCT car, thanks.

Can confirm it shifts automatically.

I don't care what flavor of automatic transmission it is.

A DCT is an automatic in the same way a CVT is. Thats not a useful categorization when talking about performance cars.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Dude, you are just arguing with yourself. You are the one that thinks shifting a manual transmission equates to "fun". I repeatedly stated in our discussion it is about control; to shift the transmission when the driver wants it to shift. Shifting the DCT in your M-car when you want is not using an automatic transmission. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

Yeah you did. Again multiple people are participating in this thread.

How many times do I have to say you means you in general. Those who are opposed to what I’m correcting.

There’s nothing any of you can say that will validate the “only” fun in a manual.

You can absolutely have “fun” in both. Point blank period.

I swear this is worse than then anti ev crowd.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

A DCT is an automatic in the same way a CVT is. Thats not a useful categorization when talking about performance cars.

It is in the sense that there’s no physical clutch pedal and you don’t need to do kung fu when shifting gears.

So if people are siding with dct because they think it’s a “manual”, actually sides with the automatic side if you think about it lmao

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

A DCT is an automatic in the same way a CVT is. Thats not a useful categorization when talking about performance cars.

That's a pretty useful analogy.

Funny though, I HATED Nissan's CVT.

Subaru's was fine.

But this:


is way different than this:



Shawn

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

A DCT is an automatic in the same way a CVT is. Thats not a useful categorization when talking about performance cars.

Is it?

Both a manual and a DCT have gears. One of those shifts automatically.

You can try to convince yourself all day long your DCT isn't an automatic transmission. At the end of the day, it doesn't have a third pedal and it shifts automatically. I'm not saying it's a bad transmission, just that those claiming it's not automatic are living in crazy-land. Some kind of crazy rationalization that they are keeping manuals alive with automatic transmissions or something...

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by RM7

Is it?

Both a manual and a DCT have gears. One of those shifts automatically.

You can try to convince yourself all day long your DCT isn't an automatic transmission. At the end of the day, it doesn't have a third pedal and it shifts automatically. I'm not saying it's a bad transmission, just that those claiming it's not automatic are living in crazy-land. Some kind of crazy rationalization that they are keeping manuals alive with automatic transmissions or something...

It's a recognition that they are mechanically different and FEELS different when driving.

So, a CVT does not have gears. It doesn't shift AT ALL. So is that "an automatic"?

And lets say a certain DCT did NOT shift automatically (had no mode to do so). Does that magically make it NOT and automatic? (which you say all DCT's are).

You're lumping a bunch of stuff together because they're computer controlled. If you had a robot sitting in the drivers seat of a manual car, does that make it an automatic? Of course not. That would be silly.

But that's what you're saying.

We're recognizing that they're different. You're not. And you're being a jerk about it. Condescending and terse. Not helping the discussion in any way.

Shawn

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

It's a recognition that they are mechanically different and FEELS different when driving.

So, a CVT does not have gears. It doesn't shift AT ALL. So is that "an automatic"?

And lets say a certain DCT did NOT shift automatically (had no mode to do so). Does that magically make it NOT and automatic? (which you say all DCT's are).

You're lumping a bunch of stuff together because they're computer controlled. If you had a robot sitting in the drivers seat of a manual car, does that make it an automatic? Of course not. That would be silly.

But that's what you're saying.

We're recognizing that they're different. You're not. And you're being a jerk about it. Condescending and terse. Not helping the discussion in any way.

Shawn

That’s not where the discussion has gone though. We’re not dissecting how a transmission works nor the specifics of each one.

Some people prefer or like or want or enjoy a manual because THEY ARE shifting their own gears and using a clutch pedal.

An automatic, no matter how you slice it eliminates the need for a clutch pedal or a movable shift lever to change gears.

If the manual purists call the dct a manual like transmission that’s fine. But that’s still considered an “automatic” because the car is shifting the gears for you.

[freakystyly]

Ok ok, but what about sequential transmissions?


I think the argument seems to have shifted to... the whole package fun vs. one component of a thing being fun.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Or... a DCT is a manual transmission that can be shifted automatically...

So you prefer a dct over an h pattern manual trans?

If so you like automatics then. Because a dct car doesn’t have a clutch pedal nor an h pattern box to row your gears.


This discussion is fun.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

And lets say a certain DCT did NOT shift automatically (had no mode to do so). Does that magically make it NOT and automatic? (which you say all DCT's are).

That's not magic, that's the actual design.

Is there a meaningful percentage of DCTs that do not shift automatically, or are you just throwing out a straw-man argument?

When a DCT automatic downshifts to the next gear that the 2nd clutch is already in, it's seamless, not even a manual transmission can do that, since no matter how fast a driver is, they still have to push in and let out the clutch. But when you try to get into a gear that the 2nd clutch is not already in, it will have to get into that gear, which is very much not like the 2nd clutch pre-selected gear and much more like a slushbox automatic gear shift in terms of time and jerking...or even worse in some circumstances. That will happen at least part of the time and it's one of the main disadvantages with a DCT (there is no perfect anything). My point is simple. There are different types of automatic transmissions. DCT is one of them. There are wet-clutch and dry-clutch versions BTW. It has advantages and disadvantages. It is not a manual transmission.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Ok ok, but what about sequential transmissions?

Do. They. Shift. Automatically?

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by RM7

Do. They. Shift. Automatically?

Lmao

That’s why this discussion is fun.

[freakystyly]

Originally Posted by RM7

Do. They. Shift. Automatically?

It's a bag of worms, like this thread.

There's BMWs SMG which was basically the early DCTs (computer controlled with paddles). I want to say E46 and E60 had the SMG in their Ms? Then there's motorcycles, and race cars which have a clutch pedal/handlebar but don't need to use it beyond first gear... think up/down only not H pattern. Pretty sure they are disticnt with their loud whine if you ever watch youtube vids with a sequential.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by HNSKP

Gonna have to disagree with you on the BRZ there. Absolutely more fun to drive a slow car fast. Owned an FRS for 5 years and I rank it even above my current G80 manual in terms of involvement on the road (track is a different story).

I agree, slow car fast is definitely more fun while staying closer to the legal limit on public roads, and in many cases on the track too. It's just not the ONLY way to have fun.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Hence why Autotrader is never clear on what "manual" transmission is in a car; you have to make sure by looking at the pictures of the interior and the shift knob/lever. Lol.

Can we all at least agree that this is frustrating for everyone!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Or... a DCT is a manual transmission that can be shifted automatically...

Here in the UK you can drive DCT/DSG on an 'automatic' driving licence.

You must have a 'manual' driving licence to drive MT.

Driving a semi-automatic car
Finally, there are a growing number of semi-automatic cars on the market. These see the driver select a gear using paddles behind the steering wheel, but there is no clutch pedal. For DVLA purposes, these vehicles are considered automatics when it comes to the driving test and for licensing purposes.

My sister has an "automatic only" driving licence and has been driving DSG vehicles for years. Don't think she ever uses the 'manual' option. To her it is definitely an automatic....

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

After 1.2M+ miles in manual trans vehicles, I'm so ingrained with manually shifting a transmission with 3 pedals, it literally is an automatic unconscious action with me for normal mundane urban/suburban traffic.

Agree, driving MT should become an unconscious action. I was driving crash boxes (pre synchromesh) in my early days. Even that becomes second nature, double clutching as a matter of course.

I've sat beside many an MT driver and think under my breath, "either learn to drive a stick properly, and smoothly, or get an AT"

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by jmg

Can we all at least agree that this is frustrating for everyone!

It's only frustrating when you watch people run around the argument at hand just to have a say in the discussion. The shit is too easy to read.

It's simple.

People said it's ONLY fun to drive a manual. FALSE.

You can find extreme enjoyment in ANY CAR, REGARDLESS of the trans. Which is the original point before everyone got on their period thinking some people are bashing manual driving.

Moral of the story. No one gives a shit what anyone prefers. You want roll up windows in your car too that's fine.

But the fact is, anyone can find enjoyment, AND HAVE FUN, in both manual AND AUTOMATIC CARS.

[IsleOfMs]

I liked having a manual and I loved heel-toeing on track. But way back in 2006 I got sick of commuting with one. I bought an E46 M3 Comp SMG and just hated it. The shift logic was never ever right, no matter the mode it was in. It wasn't fun in auto and it wasn't fun to use the paddles either. It just made driving rough and unpleasant and I went through a series of fun manuals (S2000, Elise, Boxster S) and a series of awful dad mobiles with horrible automatics.

Then I tried the Z4M and later the M340. Amazing gearboxes. This tranny is exactly what I was hoping for back in 2006. It immediately chooses the gear I want. It's smooth when I'm chilling out. It's super fast when I'm not. It makes driving fast and aggressively easy while also making it so easy to relax in traffic or parking lots. No drivetrain lash. No negatives IMO.

All 3 Porsches I've owned were manual so I can't speak to the PDK but after driving this car, if I get another one (Porsche) I'll test drive it (the PDK) first. I never would have considered it prior to this.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So what does a DCT do in auto mode when you are hauling ass on a back road in the woods at 100 KPH and a deer comes running out of the woods and you drop anchor with full, instant antilock?

I know what a real manual transmission does. Both feet in, torque instantly dies and vastly improves braking distance. I've hit 5 deer in the past 14 years and 500,000 miles, but I've avoided several hundred others...

I've done it repeatedly at over 200kph on a track. You just blip down the gears as you decel. It doesn't upset the car like you'd probably do with a manual. If you go below speed for a gear it will downshift for you even in manual mode. If you freaked out and did nothing it would end up in 1 with the clutch disengaged.

[BGM-M3COMP]

This thread is hilarious LOL

[JayML]