Toyota Chief Driver Dies in an Accident in a LFA - Sad Sad Day

[adc]

Originally Posted by Scoobe

Lots of variables sure, but regardless it will raise questions about the safety of the car. That being said, Toyota will obviously study the car carefully and be able to correct any safety concerns..

Yes, their recent publicized efforts speak volumes about their engineering prowess.

[Scoobe]

Originally Posted by adc

Yes, their recent publicized efforts speak volumes about their engineering prowess.

Can't disagree with you there.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by parafrog1

Being a fit 67 year old still does not negate the simple fact that a person's motor skills and reaction time diminish significantly as they reach later stages in life. Back to my analogy about test fighter pilots- they aren't a direct comparison to cars, but you get my point. There is a reason that guys like Chuck Yeager don't test fighter planes.

While for the majority of the population I'd agree with this assessment of diminishing skills as people age, I'd posit there are exceptions. Not all people age the same way. I'll use a personal example, which is by no means scientific, to illustrate.

My mom is 84. She just drove the golf cart into a pole and I spent Friday fixing the damage. My mom's physical and mental capabilities are, to be blunt, shot, and she has no business driving anything (not even a computer). She's really not competent in any aspect of function.

My dad, on the other hand, is 89. He's in great mental and physical shape. I ran several errands with him yesterday as a passenger (highway and city expressway speeds). Not only is he an alert and aware driver who skills are better than most people my age (40s), he's able to execute pretty complex evasive accident avoidance manuvers. Unfortunatelly he had to put those skills into play twice yesterday (once when an SUV cut us off and he had to brake, then swerve to avoid it; once when someone decided to make a stupid left hand turn in front of us, and he had to engage the ABS using that funky left-foot braking technique of his).

Frankly, I was amazed--I would have had my hands full avoiding these two idiots. But he reacted immediatelly and with decisiveness and considerable skill. His physical and mental capabilities just don't seem to have diminished much since his early 50s--in a large part due to his very active physical and mental lifestyle (trains an hour and a half a day, plays golf, walks, does lots of yard work, reads/studies, etc.). Probably that and he did spend most of his adult life driving a car 50K-60K miles a year up to the time he was 70 (he estmates he's driven over 2.5M miles--many of those very old poor handling cars....).

The point here is that different folks "age" differently. I'm not saying age won't turn out to be a factor in this crash, but I do have a bit of an issue about blanket statements about capabilities that diminish with age. It really does vary by individual--they age at different rates and the initial skill level needs to be considered as well as that's what decreases (someone who is a prodigy has a lot more "reserve" than Joe Blow like me to draw against). Perhaps it's a factor for "test pilots", but this crash was on a public road, not a supersonic flight with 5 or 6 Gs to fight against.

Maybe the argument that this guy shouldn't have been test driving carries some weight, but this wasn't lap around the ring where the crash occurred, correct? This was driving on a public road. The speeds involved are, as far as I know, unknown at this point as is the cause of the accident. I really don't care about speculation at this point--it's fine to throw out theories and we'll see which are validated once we have hard data to judge their merits against. As for me, I'm not going to speculate and will wait for the results of the investigation to come to light first.

Carry on guys.

[330CIZHP]

Regardless of age, people dying in very expensive supercars is a decades old phenomenon:

Driver of a Porsche Carrera GT dies when he lost control on the race track at 145 mph and crashed into a court:

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...608_466074.htm

Enzo Ferrari driver dies after hitting a tree:

http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...ari-enzo-crash

Ferrari F430 driver dies:

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/c...ari-beach.html

[parafrog1]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

While for the majority of the population I'd agree with this assessment of diminishing skills as people age, I'd posit there are exceptions. Not all people age the same way. I'll use a personal example, which is by no means scientific, to illustrate.

My mom is 84. She just drove the golf cart into a pole and I spent Friday fixing the damage. My mom's physical and mental capabilities are, to be blunt, shot, and she has no business driving anything (not even a computer). She's really not competent in any aspect of function.

My dad, on the other hand, is 89. He's in great mental and physical shape. I ran several errands with him yesterday as a passenger (highway and city expressway speeds). Not only is he an alert and aware driver who skills are better than most people my age (40s), he's able to execute pretty complex evasive accident avoidance manuvers. Unfortunatelly he had to put those skills into play twice yesterday (once when an SUV cut us off and he had to brake, then swerve to avoid it; once when someone decided to make a stupid left hand turn in front of us, and he had to engage the ABS using that funky left-foot braking technique of his).

Frankly, I was amazed--I would have had my hands full avoiding these two idiots. But he reacted immediatelly and with decisiveness and considerable skill. His physical and mental capabilities just don't seem to have diminished much since his early 50s--in a large part due to his very active physical and mental lifestyle (trains an hour and a half a day, plays golf, walks, does lots of yard work, reads/studies, etc.). Probably that and he did spend most of his adult life driving a car 50K-60K miles a year up to the time he was 70 (he estmates he's driven over 2.5M miles--many of those very old poor handling cars....).

The point here is that different folks "age" differently. I'm not saying age won't turn out to be a factor in this crash, but I do have a bit of an issue about blanket statements about capabilities that diminish with age. It really does vary by individual--they age at different rates and the initial skill level needs to be considered as well as that's what decreases (someone who is a prodigy has a lot more "reserve" than Joe Blow like me to draw against). Perhaps it's a factor for "test pilots", but this crash was on a public road, not a supersonic flight with 5 or 6 Gs to fight against.

Maybe the argument that this guy shouldn't have been test driving carries some weight, but this wasn't lap around the ring where the crash occurred, correct? This was driving on a public road. The speeds involved are, as far as I know, unknown at this point as is the cause of the accident. I really don't care about speculation at this point--it's fine to throw out theories and we'll see which are validated once we have hard data to judge their merits against. As for me, I'm not going to speculate and will wait for the results of the investigation to come to light first.

Carry on guys.

Good points, Finnegan. All folks age differently. He was driving on a public road and it could very well have been a mechanical failure or the other driver caused him to do something evasive and he lost it. I just thought it an interesting talking point on whether he should have still been the chief test driver for the LFA, so I brought it up and gave my position. Many will disagree, as some here have. All good.

[duk]

Come on guys, this is a tragedy. RIP and condolences to Toyota and the guy's family.

[JohnnyRoaster]

It looks like the two testers in the BMW were not wearing helmets as reported and are expected to be fine.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...-not-speeding/

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRoaster

It looks like the two testers in the BMW were not wearing helmets as reported and are expected to be fine.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...-not-speeding/

Read a little more closely. It is illegal to wear a helmet. All 3 were originally reported to have been wearing helmets. BMW is clarifying that their guys did not have helmets on, so they won't be fined.

[ss134]

Originally Posted by oldmanstyle

Read a little more closely. It is illegal to wear a helmet. All 3 were originally reported to have been wearing helmets. BMW is clarifying that their guys did not have helmets on, so they won't be fined.

That is what his post is saying ! 'Read a little more closely'

[JohnnyRoaster]

I probably should have worded it a little better.

1. The testers in the BMW were not wearing helmets as previously reported.

2. They will be fine and recover from the accident. One of them was released on Friday.

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by ss134

That is what his post is saying ! 'Read a little more closely'

Originally Posted by JohnnyRoaster

I probably should have worded it a little better.

1. The testers in the BMW were not wearing helmets as previously reported.

2. They will be fine and recover from the accident. One of them was released on Friday.

lol, complete brain fart on my half, glad there was some irony to it. sorry!

[JohnnyRoaster]

Originally Posted by oldmanstyle

lol, complete brain fart on my half, glad there was some irony to it. sorry!

No worries!

[EJ_92606]

Originally Posted by parafrog1

I'm on board with you. I wouldn't presume to know the circumstances of the accident. I wasn't there.

But accident aside- Should this guy have been pushing the LFA to its limits as king ding-a-ling tester for Lexus? I know airplanes are not exactly the same, but my analogy still holds water. You simply don't have the old crusty dude pushing your cutting edge machine to its limits-- which his notes contribute to its development. What you DO do is - You have a guy at the top of his game doing it. The crusty old dude is there for reference and to slap the young studs in the back of the head when they act stupid. He's FULL of knowledge and you leverage that to turn out the best car you can.

Yes, at 67 years old, I still hope I'm having fun doing what i love too. But shit Man! 99% of 67 year olds should not even be on the road. I'm not being an A-hole either. This guy's reaction time is not even close to what it was 30 years ago. Like people on this thread have said, he could have had a heart attack or stroke and drifted in the oncoming lane. Did this dude even have a physical? I doubt it. He was working off of his legend.

Damn, I dunno......I think this dude was THE shit so he worked off his legend status and no one questioned it. So he kept at it. I refuse to believe that no one at Lexus thought "Should this guy be doing this at his stage in life?"......I mean, when do they make airline pilots stop flying airplanes? 60? And I'm guessing that driving the LFA is MUCH more demanding at it limits, which this guy was tasked to do.

Thoughts?

Check results of Pike's Peak Hill Climb

http://www.gizmag.com/sixty-year-old...t-event/15575/

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by parafrog1

In shape or not, 67 years on this planet is pretty old. And I would say too old to be a test driver for a car like that. Legend or not- his time was up and he had NO business being in that car and testing it for Lexus.

Just like a test pilot for a fighter aircraft, you need a test pilot in their prime with FULL command of their body, mind, faculties, etc..

This guy's ability to react to the car and provide precise input at critical times MUST have been terribly lacking.

Let me say that this is a terrible thing and I wish his family the best. At the least, he died doing what he loved.

But its my position that this guy had NO business behind the wheel of this thing at his age. Hey guys, talk to a 67 year old person some time. See how they move. I mean, seriously? It's like putting Chuck Yeager in an F-22 to test it right as he's approaching 70 years old. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

Just my humble opinion

It may be your 'humble opinion' but it's inaccurate and colored by your personal world view at your young age at this moment in time.

There are many younger people who are test drivers who lack wisdom and skill (with only a few years of experience) who make mistakes and kill themselves.

Age, skill, stupidity. It's all part of the equation. Maybe you have no business behind the wheel because you don't have the experience yet that an older person has learned. Reflexes at a particular age? There are 75 year old men who can have better reflexes than you. It's relative based on a skill set developed over time.

Chuck Yeager? He flew a new F15D past Mach 1. The chase plane for the flight was an F16. It was a US Air Force sanctioned test flight. Yeager was 74 years old.

Look, the guy crashed on a public road and not on the track. You have no clue as to the circumstances. But under your logic of "tired old men," then if you are under 30 and a male, then you shouldn't be driving period. Because it's your demographic that is responsible for the majority of death and mayhem on the road today. That's why insurance companies charge you higher premiums and everybody has to pay for your mess on the roads.

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

It may be your 'humble opinion' but it's inaccurate and colored by your personal world view at your young age at this moment in time.

There are many younger people who are test drivers who lack wisdom and skill (with only a few years of experience) who make mistakes and kill themselves.

Age, skill, stupidity. It's all part of the equation. Maybe you have no business behind the wheel because you don't have the experience yet that an older person has learned. Reflexes at a particular age? There are 75 year old men who can have better reflexes than you. It's relative based on a skill set developed over time.

Chuck Yeager? He flew a new F15D past Mach 1. The chase plane for the flight was an F16. It was a US Air Force sanctioned test flight. Yeager was 74 years old.

Look, the guy crashed on a public road and not on the track. You have no clue as to the circumstances. But under your logic of "tired old men," then if you are under 30 and a male, then you shouldn't be driving period. Because it's your demographic that is responsible for the majority of death and mayhem on the road today. That's why insurance companies charge you higher premiums and everybody has to pay for your mess on the roads.

[Sylon]

Did they ever say what happened to the 2 BMW test drivers? Last I heard they were in critical and serious conditions.

[OC ///M]

^+1

Did anyone find out if they released a report or concluded the investigation?

[s2k_335i]

Wow. Sad to hear the news. RIP

[DASHOCKER]

AIS (Accident Investigation Squad) is taking too long or are they being told to keep the report confidential by Toyota in order to keep the LFA program & its 500 cars alive.. Something tells me this was mechanical failure..

[escobar929]

Originally Posted by parafrog1

I'm on board with you. I wouldn't presume to know the circumstances of the accident. I wasn't there.

But accident aside- Should this guy have been pushing the LFA to its limits as king ding-a-ling tester for Lexus? I know airplanes are not exactly the same, but my analogy still holds water. You simply don't have the old crusty dude pushing your cutting edge machine to its limits-- which his notes contribute to its development. What you DO do is - You have a guy at the top of his game doing it. The crusty old dude is there for reference and to slap the young studs in the back of the head when they act stupid. He's FULL of knowledge and you leverage that to turn out the best car you can.

Yes, at 67 years old, I still hope I'm having fun doing what i love too. But shit Man! 99% of 67 year olds should not even be on the road. I'm not being an A-hole either. This guy's reaction time is not even close to what it was 30 years ago. Like people on this thread have said, he could have had a heart attack or stroke and drifted in the oncoming lane. Did this dude even have a physical? I doubt it. He was working off of his legend.

Damn, I dunno......I think this dude was THE shit so he worked off his legend status and no one questioned it. So he kept at it. I refuse to believe that no one at Lexus thought "Should this guy be doing this at his stage in life?"......I mean, when do they make airline pilots stop flying airplanes? 60? And I'm guessing that driving the LFA is MUCH more demanding at it limits, which this guy was tasked to do.

Thoughts?

I understand what you are trying to say but I highly disagree. Mainly because none of us knew him personally. People age differently, my father is 65 and would run circles around your average 30 year old. His senses are still as sharp as they used to be.

I prefer to keep speculation to a minimum when it regards to someone dying, no one wants people talking crap about a family member who died