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      06-01-2019, 07:07 AM   #1
Genieman
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Question for democrats and republicans

Serious question here, if you identify strongly with either side, what would it take for you to SERIOUSLY consider either voting for the other Siders's candidate or even switching sides altogether?

Just curious because all day people discuss their viewpoints on here but I don't think a single persons' perspective has ever been changed by someone with opposing perspextive. So debating is kinda purposeless. If you can't change someone's mind your only upside is "winning" a debate which is of little utility.
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      06-01-2019, 07:22 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Serious question here, if you identify strongly with either side, what would it take for you to SERIOUSLY consider either voting for the other Siders's candidate or even switching sides altogether?

Just curious because all day people discuss their viewpoints on here but I don't think a single persons' perspective has ever been changed by someone with opposing perspextive. So debating is kinda purposeless. If you can't change someone's mind your only upside is "winning" a debate which is of little utility.
I used to get convince of stuff I learned here all the time but now all the smart ppl have left here and we are stuck with a bunch of crazy ppl who want to just win argument online. They are so bad at it too so they have to gang up like 5 to 1 always. good luck with this thread
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      06-01-2019, 07:42 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
I used to get convince of stuff I learned here all the time but now all the smart ppl have left here and we are stuck with a bunch of crazy ppl who want to just win argument online. They are so bad at it too so they have to gang up like 5 to 1 always. good luck with this thread
Thats kind of a broad blanket statement don't you think? I guess that makes you one of the "crazy ppl."

Last edited by Grumpy Old Man; 06-01-2019 at 07:55 AM..
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      06-01-2019, 07:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
I used to get convince of stuff I learned here all the time but now all the smart ppl have left here and we are stuck with a bunch of crazy ppl who want to just win argument online. They are so bad at it too so they have to gang up like 5 to 1 always. good luck with this thread
Thats kind of a broad blanket statement don't you think? I guess that makes you one of the crazy ppl.
Wow thanks that took no time for king troll to step in
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      06-01-2019, 07:46 AM   #5
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Grumpy trolls? Did not know.
Thanks.

To the question.
Detroadster is the only liberal on here who has voiced his displeasure with the democratic party and his resulting exit. I like to call myself center if I have to identify but things have gone past hyper and it's now just A or B. I can't align with much of anything the left stands for these days so...

Look what the MSM does to dem runners, Starbucks guy, who want to reattach the parties. They ran him out of town. They want nothing to do with mutual cooperation.
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      06-01-2019, 07:48 AM   #6
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      06-01-2019, 08:07 AM   #7
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I do not identify as a Dem or Republican. I vote more so for the person than the party. With that said, I have voted Republican far more times than Democrat over the years. But, I will not vote for Trump the next election. He has wore out his welcome with his constant lies and behavior that is simply unbecoming of the office.
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      06-01-2019, 08:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
Wow thanks that took no time for king troll to step in
Wow, "King Troll".....I didn't realize I was a troll in the first place. Not sure why you feel the need for name calling though. I will happily engage in debate on this forum, I don't lower myself to name calling of other members and try to keep my debate to facts. You have a good weekend SoCal.
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      06-01-2019, 08:51 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Serious question here, if you identify strongly with either side, what would it take for you to SERIOUSLY consider either voting for the other Siders's candidate or even switching sides altogether?

Just curious because all day people discuss their viewpoints on here but I don't think a single persons' perspective has ever been changed by someone with opposing perspextive. So debating is kinda purposeless. If you can't change someone's mind your only upside is "winning" a debate which is of little utility.
So I don't ever see myself going over to the hard left. I think of myself as being in the middle. I am a fiscal conservative who believes in less and smaller government. I have no problem paying taxes for things such as health care, education, public safety and infrastructure. I think we should take care of societies vulnerable and I can't tolerate government waste.

The thing I find interesting in this whole left right debate currently is that the left (Liberals in Canada) used to sit in the centre, what they call right leaning and sometimes extreme right are now who's actually in the centre. The Conservative Party in Canada sits where the Liberals did 15 years ago. JFK the great Democrat and I mean that with honesty and respect would be considered a right winger by todays Democrats.

This could be an interesting discussion if the name calling can be kept in check.
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      06-01-2019, 08:59 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Serious question here, if you identify strongly with either side, what would it take for you to SERIOUSLY consider either voting for the other Siders's candidate or even switching sides altogether?

Just curious because all day people discuss their viewpoints on here but I don't think a single persons' perspective has ever been changed by someone with opposing perspextive. So debating is kinda purposeless. If you can't change someone's mind your only upside is "winning" a debate which is of little utility.
So I don't ever see myself going over to the hard left. I think of myself as being in the middle. I am a fiscal conservative who believes in less and smaller government. I have no problem paying taxes for things such as health care, education, public safety and infrastructure. I think we should take care of societies vulnerable and I can't tolerate government waste.

The thing I find interesting in this whole left right debate currently is that the left (Liberals in Canada) used to sit in the centre, what they call right leaning and sometimes extreme right are now who's actually in the centre. The Conservative Party in Canada sits where the Liberals did 15 years ago. JFK the great Democrat and I mean that with honesty and respect would be considered a right winger by todays Democrats.

This could be an interesting discussion if the name calling can be kept in check.
This is interesting and true. Ray Dalio (Democrat) made an interesting point in his book. Paraphrased, he said that people's perspective is anchored on the current state of the world. So what we consider left today, would have been extreme left 10 years ago, and what is right today was just right of center 10 years ago. Conversely, the left from the 70s was really just left of center and the right was extreme right.
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      06-01-2019, 10:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Serious question here, if you identify strongly with either side, what would it take for you to SERIOUSLY consider either voting for the other Siders's candidate or even switching sides altogether?

Just curious because all day people discuss their viewpoints on here but I don't think a single persons' perspective has ever been changed by someone with opposing perspextive. So debating is kinda purposeless. If you can't change someone's mind your only upside is "winning" a debate which is of little utility.
Great thread!

I used to be a liberal democrat until I saw behind the curtain. I then became a republican until I started lobbying in 2008. I became a libertarian (small "L") after learning that there isn't 10 cents worth of difference between "D" and "R" at the national level.

The question then became, "Who will do the least amount of damage to the country while at least pretending to keep us safe against outside threats. This means I tend to vote R on the national level and about a 50-50 mix on the local level.

The higher the level of office, the more they become tainted by national policies.
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      06-01-2019, 10:29 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
Wow thanks that took no time for king troll to step in
Wow, "King Troll".....I didn't realize I was a troll in the first place. Not sure why you feel the need for name calling though. I will happily engage in debate on this forum, I don't lower myself to name calling of other members and try to keep my debate to facts. You have a good weekend SoCal.
You call me crazy and that's ok. But we can't point out your trolling



There's a reason your king troll

And that's why this thread like all the others will be one sided crazy republicans talking. Smart ppl all gone
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      06-01-2019, 11:27 AM   #13
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I believe society as a whole has slid to the left and the political landscape reflects this societal shift. Grumpy is exactly right about JFK - I believe he would be considered extreme right wing by today's Democrats, after all, he unashamedly voiced his love for this country and was not hesitant to express his focus on ensuring America's success. (Not unlike our current President.) He also had the outlandish idea that people were responsible for their own success/happiness/actions. Yet at the time he was a star Democrat.
Back to the OP's question - if JFK were alive today and the choice was JFK vs Trump in the 2016 elections. I would probably vote for JFK simply because Trump at the time was an unknown quantity and JFK had a pretty good track record.
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      06-01-2019, 12:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
You call me crazy and that's ok. But we can't point out your trolling

"I used to get convince of stuff I learned here all the time but now all the smart ppl have left here and we are stuck with a bunch of crazy ppl who want to just win argument online."

Your words, you called yourself crazy by default as you are here on line arguing.

There's a reason your king troll

And that's why this thread like all the others will be one sided crazy republicans talking. Smart ppl all gone
I'm not a republican, in fact I didn't identify as any particular party.....maybe small "c" conservative or small "L" libertarian....so I'll guess you're a democrat and therefore smart or not crazy....I'm just trying to read between the lines of your post.
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      06-01-2019, 12:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
You call me crazy and that's ok. But we can't point out your trolling

"I used to get convince of stuff I learned here all the time but now all the smart ppl have left here and we are stuck with a bunch of crazy ppl who want to just win argument online."

Your words, you called yourself crazy by default as you are here on line arguing.

There's a reason your king troll

And that's why this thread like all the others will be one sided crazy republicans talking. Smart ppl all gone
I'm not a republican, in fact I didn't identify as any particular party.....maybe small "c" conservative or small "L" libertarian....so I'll guess you're a democrat and therefore smart or not crazy....I'm just trying to read between the lines of your post.
You can't help but troll. It's your nature.

You didn't ruin yet another thread really you didn't
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      06-01-2019, 12:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Serious question here, if you identify strongly with either side, what would it take for you to SERIOUSLY consider either voting for the other Siders's candidate or even switching sides altogether?

Just curious because all day people discuss their viewpoints on here but I don't think a single persons' perspective has ever been changed by someone with opposing perspextive. So debating is kinda purposeless. If you can't change someone's mind your only upside is "winning" a debate which is of little utility.
I keep coming back specifically because this forum is filled with people that I disagree with. They force me to step back and take a hard look at "facts", "truth", and "evidence" that I took or take for granted as being clear. They challenge me. They frustrate me. They piss me off. But they ultimately make me a more intelligent and well rounded individual. Sometimes they do change my mind. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree because they cant.

I've always voted straight party ticket because I felt I had no other choice. At the national level Im not sure there's anyone on the horizon who is a Republican that I could see myself voting for, but maybe. At the state and local level, certainly. Of the 7 or 8 people in my neighborhood district who are running for city council, I'll be voting for the most conservative of the pack. Maybe that's not saying much. Maybe that's not a big shift. But it's definitely in part because of my overall views shifting over the past few years and a lot of that has to do with the folks on this forum.

So to answer you question, Yes.
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      06-01-2019, 01:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
You call me crazy and that's ok. But we can't point out your trolling



There's a reason your king troll

And that's why this thread like all the others will be one sided crazy republicans talking. Smart ppl all gone
Your bias just jumped out in full view.
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      06-01-2019, 02:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
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You can't help but troll. It's your nature.

You didn't ruin yet another thread really you didn't
Only person ruining this thread is you. Also only person trolling this thread is you.
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      06-01-2019, 03:57 PM   #19
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Have always voted in national elections for the person I feel best suited for the job. At one time, was a registered Republican back in the '80's and voted for RR and later his VP Bush.
Have voted Democrat since Clinton's second term and feel the country does far better under Democrats in the executive office. There have also been studies done that support this.
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      06-01-2019, 04:32 PM   #20
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I have become convinced over the years that great western political and economic thinkers like Hayek, Friedman, Locke, Montesquieu, Jefferson, Madison, etc. had it fundamentally right: in the main, people pursue their own self interests, and the best system of governance is one that atomizes power as much as possible and limits the roll of government as much as possible to certain core functions: national defense; establishment and evenhanded enforcement of law; and a judiciary to resolve disputes. The goal should be to maximize individual liberty and capitalist free markets, while keeping government as small as possible. This will not result in utopia, because utopia is impossible to attain, and efforts to do so always result in tyranny. But history has shown time and again that individual liberty, small government, and free markets is the best way to improve the standard of living for all citizens.

Although I have given political philosophy a lot of thought, and am pretty firm in my convictions, I think Friedman was right that you need to be humble and truly realize that any one of your firmly held beliefs could be wrong. You need to be open to persuasion. Otherwise you are a mere ideologue and will cease to learn or think critically.

I let these core beliefs guide my voting, and always find myself choosing what I would characterize as the lesser of evils.

Iím curious as to whether I am considered one of the five trolls referenced above just because my beliefs tend toward the conservative/classically liberal. I think my posts are generally respectful when it comes to politics, but itís hard to know how you are perceived by others.
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      06-01-2019, 04:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
Serious question here, if you identify strongly with either side, what would it take for you to SERIOUSLY consider either voting for the other Siders's candidate or even switching sides altogether?
I've always been very much to the left socially (gays are better people than straights, women should be able to abort their kids until the kids are financially independent, all guns should be confiscated, and all religions without exception are evil). This never changed and never will.

However, on all other matters I used to be in the middle, seeing good stuff in the positions of both parties. This ended when GOP started lying, and I don't mean bending the truth and emphasizing the facts beneficial to their position like all politicians have done throughout the ages - I mean straight up lies. Bush admin did that most prominently with Iraq and WMDs. Then it was "death panels" and climate change denial. Now their position on pretty much every important issue is based on lies. Trump who can't even keep track of his lies (every claim he makes - there's always a video or a tweet where he makes the opposite claim) is basically an embodiment of the strategy the party had chosen in the early 2010s.

So, to answer your question: I will seriously consider Republicans again when I see that their positions are based on facts.
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If you can't change someone's mind your only upside is "winning" a debate which is of little utility.
I'm guessing this is your first visit to the internets?
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      06-01-2019, 04:47 PM   #22
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But history has shown time and again that individual liberty, small government, and free markets is the best way to improve the standard of living for all citizens.
Nash and Pareto basically put the final nails in the coffin of that idea.
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