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      06-20-2019, 10:15 PM   #5611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The power dynamic between the President of the United States banging an intern is abusive behavior. That's why people in the business world get in trouble for this type of behavior where a boss bangs an underling... never mind an intern!
Golly gee, you have the temerity to holier than thou when the current occupant of the WH has like 20 lawsuits for sexual assault! Funny!

Abusive behavior is described as essentially unwanted, unwelcome and that wasn't the case. And the WH is not the business world.

Its also funny how the guy that led the charge against Clinton for these was Newt, who at the same time was cheating on his wife.
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      06-20-2019, 10:22 PM   #5612
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I find BJ repulsive, I don't want my lips to touch the same lips that was sucking on my junk.
Uhhhmmm....
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      06-20-2019, 10:26 PM   #5613
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funny!
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      06-21-2019, 10:40 AM   #5614
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Can't one of our Canadian friends help irish understand how wrong Bill/Monica was? Was that Joekerr or Grumpy Old Man that has the professional insight into workplace abuse?

That's not to say that Trump is some sort of angel to be looked up to. But I have yet to hear of any abusive relationships he may have had. And I don't recall that Newt was banging anyone who worked for him. Infidelity is not good, but not necessarily a crime.
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      06-21-2019, 11:39 AM   #5615
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Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
I beg to differ that cigar was definitely abused
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      06-21-2019, 11:56 AM   #5616
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Can't one of our Canadian friends help irish understand how wrong Bill/Monica was? Was that Joekerr or Grumpy Old Man that has the professional insight into workplace abuse?

That's not to say that Trump is some sort of angel to be looked up to. But I have yet to hear of any abusive relationships he may have had. And I don't recall that Newt was banging anyone who worked for him. Infidelity is not good, but not necessarily a crime.
I can't remember if I offered "professional insight" but I will comment that I'm always shocked that folks who claim to be progressive will forgive minor sexual abuse of those they hold out as also progressive.
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      06-21-2019, 12:25 PM   #5617
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The sexual hypocrisy of Newt Gingrich and others is part of history and we have someone in the WH currently who is the subject of somewhere around 20 lawsuits for sexual assault.

Time to go leer at the latest cool pic threads everyone!!! See ya over there...
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      06-21-2019, 02:14 PM   #5618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Can't one of our Canadian friends help irish understand how wrong Bill/Monica was? Was that Joekerr or Grumpy Old Man that has the professional insight into workplace abuse?

That's not to say that Trump is some sort of angel to be looked up to. But I have yet to hear of any abusive relationships he may have had. And I don't recall that Newt was banging anyone who worked for him. Infidelity is not good, but not necessarily a crime.
No, I feel like you are talking about JohnnyCanuck if I recall his name correctly.

I have nothing to add to workplace abuse.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      06-21-2019, 02:25 PM   #5619
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
No, I feel like you are talking about JohnnyCanuck if I recall his name correctly.

I have nothing to add to workplace abuse.
All us Canadians look alike.
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      06-21-2019, 03:19 PM   #5620
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
All us Canadians look alike.
I'm just gratified that Americans generally know we exist. In a whole different country outside their borders.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      06-21-2019, 03:34 PM   #5621
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
I'm just gratified that Americans generally know we exist. In a whole different country outside their borders.
Meh, not really. We know of a couple of areas. Montreal is 'Arctic France', Toronto is that other big city like New York where all the house hunter shows are filmed. Vancouver is 'Northern Seattle'. Everything else in Canada is 'Alaska-ish'.

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      06-21-2019, 03:43 PM   #5622
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Meh, not really. We know of a couple of areas. Montreal is 'Arctic France', Toronto is that other big city like New York where all the house hunter shows are filmed. Vancouver is 'Northern Seattle'. Everything else in Canada is 'Alaska-ish'.

eh

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      06-21-2019, 04:01 PM   #5623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
No, I feel like you are talking about JohnnyCanuck if I recall his name correctly.

I have nothing to add to workplace abuse.
Yes ... that would be me. Lots of experience in the area. I generally no longer post in the Politics/Religion sub-forum, however I will make this comment on the Clinton WH discussion.

There is no question that a clear power imbalance existed between the President and the intern. By today's standards, there is also no question that a sexual relationship, albeit apparently consensual, that is a direct result of that power imbalance would likely constitute sexual misconduct. If I was giving professional advice respecting a figure of authority in similar circumstances, I would determine that they committed culpable misconduct that would support a disciplinary response.

However, there is a real risk of applying 2019 standards to incidents that occurred more than twenty years ago. The real question is that by the standards of the time did BC's actions constitute sexual misconduct as a workplace issue? I didn't start working in this area until about 2000, but even then I would say it is not as clear as it would be today. I do not think we really know whether the intern threw herself at the President or the President hectored the intern into sexual favours, but neither was socially objectionable until at least the 1980's. That is when we started to see change. Considering where we are today, that change has taken way too long and been far too slow, but we are getting there. I don't think we can say we that we were far enough along in 1998 that his actions would have been culpable misconduct in the workplace context.

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      06-21-2019, 04:38 PM   #5624
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^^^ Good stuff. Times have changed, for the better. Especially with #metoo basically busting the door down.

But please let's stop beating dead Clinto---err, horses shall we? There's no double standard here. What BC did was bad. What DT did was bad.
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      06-21-2019, 04:58 PM   #5625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
^^^ Good stuff. Times have changed, for the better. Especially with #metoo basically busting the door down.

But please let's stop beating dead Clinto---err, horses shall we? There's no double standard here. What BC did was bad. What DT did was bad.
An excellent point
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      06-22-2019, 05:15 AM   #5626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Yes ... that would be me. Lots of experience in the area. I generally no longer post in the Politics/Religion sub-forum, however I will make this comment on the Clinton WH discussion.

There is no question that a clear power imbalance existed between the President and the intern. By today's standards, there is also no question that a sexual relationship, albeit apparently consensual, that is a direct result of that power imbalance would likely constitute sexual misconduct. If I was giving professional advice respecting a figure of authority in similar circumstances, I would determine that they committed culpable misconduct that would support a disciplinary response.

However, there is a real risk of applying 2019 standards to incidents that occurred more than twenty years ago. The real question is that by the standards of the time did BC's actions constitute sexual misconduct as a workplace issue? I didn't start working in this area until about 2000, but even then I would say it is not as clear as it would be today. I do not think we really know whether the intern threw herself at the President or the President hectored the intern into sexual favours, but neither was socially objectionable until at least the 1980's. That is when we started to see change. Considering where we are today, that change has taken way too long and been far too slow, but we are getting there. I don't think we can say we that we were far enough along in 1998 that his actions would have been culpable misconduct in the workplace context.
I agree with what you've said here and will just point out the irony that we seem to be looking at everything in the past through today's lens rather than in a contextual light, and that's true of sexual conduct, political decisions etc and for that were taking down statues and trying to re-write or erase history. None of which is really a good idea IMHO.
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      06-22-2019, 09:59 AM   #5627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
I agree with what you've said here and will just point out the irony that we seem to be looking at everything in the past through today's lens rather than in a contextual light, and that's true of sexual conduct, political decisions etc and for that were taking down statues and trying to re-write or erase history. None of which is really a good idea IMHO.
On statues I disagree. The statues at issue are current reminders to whole ethnic groups that they were treated as second class citizens in their own country. It isn't about re-writing history, nor is about not understanding the individual in the context of the times. A statue represents a current glorification of the individual and aspects of their beliefs that are abhorrent to us today. A black person seeing a statue of Jefferson Davis has a modern day reaction. Is it appropriate that we glorify through visible and public reminders to that black person their historical status? That is an entirely different context and that's the proper framework for discussion.
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      06-22-2019, 10:11 PM   #5628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
On statues I disagree. The statues at issue are current reminders to whole ethnic groups that they were treated as second class citizens in their own country. It isn't about re-writing history, nor is about not understanding the individual in the context of the times. A statue represents a current glorification of the individual and aspects of their beliefs that are abhorrent to us today. A black person seeing a statue of Jefferson Davis has a modern day reaction. Is it appropriate that we glorify through visible and public reminders to that black person their historical status? That is an entirely different context and that's the proper framework for discussion.
Really, Sir John A. MacDonald the first Prime Minister of Canada a founding father so to speak. If that's the benchmark, then how about Mount Rushmore, lets chisel off those four hooligans. Hell, a few of them were slave owners, better take Washington off the one dollar note then. My point is, many of these folks did great things, and what we have now would be very different if it weren't for them, so lets take a deep breath and realize that if we look at things through the lens of the time period and with some common sense we can understand that what they did might have been appropriate or the norm for the time. Or lets tear it all down and erect a statue of Justin Trudeau the great progressive.
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      06-23-2019, 11:47 AM   #5629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Really, Sir John A. MacDonald the first Prime Minister of Canada a founding father so to speak. If that's the benchmark, then how about Mount Rushmore, lets chisel off those four hooligans. Hell, a few of them were slave owners, better take Washington off the one dollar note then. My point is, many of these folks did great things, and what we have now would be very different if it weren't for them, so lets take a deep breath and realize that if we look at things through the lens of the time period and with some common sense we can understand that what they did might have been appropriate or the norm for the time. Or lets tear it all down and erect a statue of Justin Trudeau the great progressive.
I didn't write anything about MacDonald, or Mt. Rushmore. I cited what should be an uncontroversial example of a statue that should, in my view, be taken down. As usual, you fail to acknowledge the actual point I made and instead use it as an opportunity to express your unhinged hatred of Justin Trudeau.

Thank you for reminding why I stopped posting in this forum.
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      06-24-2019, 05:38 AM   #5630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
I didn't write anything about MacDonald, or Mt. Rushmore. I cited what should be an uncontroversial example of a statue that should, in my view, be taken down. As usual, you fail to acknowledge the actual point I made and instead use it as an opportunity to express your unhinged hatred of Justin Trudeau.

Thank you for reminding why I stopped posting in this forum.
Actually, you miss my point. Who get's to decide which statue is appropriate and which isn't, by your post I gather it's you. Others might think that the statues I sighted should go. Or we could take the approach that we learn from the errors of historical figures that perhaps in todays view were less than perfect.

As for my feelings about Justin Trudeau, your opinion might be that I have an "unhinged hatred" of him. Hate is a word that gets too easily thrown around, hate is a guy in a bell tower with a high powered rifle shooting innocents, or some such similar act. I don't like Trudeau and I think my reasons are well hinged.

And as for the reminder, you're welcome.
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      06-24-2019, 07:09 AM   #5631
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Top of the morning, gentlemen.

Just a friendly reminder that if you still believe Trump colluded with the Russians in 2016, you are a conspiracy theorist.

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      06-25-2019, 10:00 PM   #5632
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The plot thickens.....

https://apnews.com/5d90622646ae4aa3b3038859ce15a46e

https://apple.news/AxPkO1UC2RrWB-FSEYRHBHg
Washington Post
Former special counsel Robert S. Mueller III will testify to Congress in open session next month about his investigation of Russia's interference in the 2016 election and possible obstruction of justice by President Trump.
The House Judiciary and Intelligence committees, in a late-night announcement Tuesday, said that "pursuant to a subpoena" Mueller has agreed to appear before both panels on July 17
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