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      01-16-2019, 01:29 PM   #1475
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Originally Posted by bagekko View Post
All they would of had to do is take the LFA and make a cheaper version.

One of the nonsense things Toyota said was they no longer make straight 6 engines anymore and wanted the reborn Supra to have one.

If the partnership saved the Z4 thats good. Will Toyota sell a ton of the Supras yes. Will the hardcore Supra fan boys ever be happy no.

Unfortunately I dont think there will be a full blown M version of the new Z4, just the M40 half M variant.
Yeah, considering the cars that the '90s Supra was gunning for, the Lexus LC is really closer to what that Supra was, albeit more luxurious. Toyota just needed to make a less fancy LC for $65K.
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      01-16-2019, 01:42 PM   #1476
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Imagine if Toyota took the 2j and revised it with modern-day tech. Minimized R&D cost while continuing the legendary status.
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      01-16-2019, 01:52 PM   #1477
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Originally Posted by Powaup View Post
I'm trolling a bit but from a product line standpoint, the RC-F currently holds the top of the line spot of Toyota performance cars.

Entry level: GT-86 ($28K)
Mid Level: A90 Supra ($50K)
Flagship: Lexus RC-F ($80k)

Toyota execs must've seen this and decided not to make the Supra too powerful so that it did not cannibalize sales of the RC-F.

Hopefully, I am wrong, Toyota has said that they want 3 sports cars and hopefully they realized that the RC-F is a GT sedan for older sugar daddies and not close to a sports car. That would mean that there is still another sports car in the works by Toyota, maybe MR-2? but if that's the case where does it fit price wise? in between the $50k Supra and the $28k GT86?

Who knows at this point but I hope we get a $60k car with 380-400hp and some more neat stuff
Seems like grasping at straws to explain Toyotas massive stupidity and failure with this car.

Lexus and toyota are not cross shopped nor do each others strategy really effect the other. Supra should have been a performance beast while the lexus a gentleman racer a comfy yet sporty gt kinda car.

No chance in hell that the blunder that is the Supra is because they were worried about the RCF. Also it was said that Toyota wanted 3 sports cars, Lexus has nothing to do with that they do their own thing.

They should have built the Supra on a lexus platform made a rcf replacement on it and hell maybe even used the chassis to bring back the Celica while letting the 86 die off.
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      01-16-2019, 02:27 PM   #1478
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Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
I think the problem is that Toyota fanboys have long thought of their Supra as the "anti-German/anti-Yuppie" sports car that has a huge tuner community backing it up. Now that their new car is essentially a BMW, they're having a hard time digesting it.

Can you imagine if the next M3 was built by Audi, or even Porsche? Guys around here would go nuts.
Exactly, and its fair they/we would go nuts.

Listen, I don't know anything about the supra heritage or community or hardcore fan base but it seems obvious this 'Supra' has NOTHING to do with it. Even if its a great car it should have a different name.

Why can't toyota/lexus make their own interior and engine? Why can't it have a stick shift? Old M guys still get to have one in the m2/3/4. What about old Toyota guys?

Toyota and BMW are just abusing the Supra name to fund a lame partnership selling a cheaper Z4. I am totally missing the point of this car.
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      01-16-2019, 02:40 PM   #1479
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Originally Posted by Prevost87 View Post
Imagine if Toyota took the 2j and revised it with modern-day tech. Minimized R&D cost while continuing the legendary status.
I can't even imagine what it would cost to take an obsolete engine design from the 90s and update to pass modern emissions and fuel consumption requirements. For the volume of sales there is no way it was going to happen.

From everything I've read, it was either find a partner that had an I6 engine that they could use or not do it at all.

Considering how many awards the B58 has won, it's not like it's a crap engine. By the time they would have engineered their own new I6 it would have ended up being very very similar to the B58 anyway as they would have likely made the same design decisions that BMW had to in order to make it as efficient, cost effective and emissions compliant as a modern engine has to be.

So had they redesigned their own, the same people would be complaining that they had to made these design choices. You simply can't make an engine like the 2JZ anymore ... any more than you can make things like non turbo V8s ... something else people pine for.

The real question is - if you want a modern I6 RWD two seater sports car with Japanese styling ... does this fit the bill? It's a VERY small market segment these days and the few other offerings are getting VERY long in the tooth and may not be updated / just get discontinued.
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      01-16-2019, 02:47 PM   #1480
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Originally Posted by MarkDemma View Post
I can't even imagine what it would cost to take an obsolete engine design from the 90s and update to pass modern emissions and fuel consumption requirements. For the volume of sales there is no way it was going to happen.

From everything I've read, it was either find a partner that had an I6 engine that they could use or not do it at all.

Considering how many awards the B58 has won, it's not like it's a crap engine. By the time they would have engineered their own new I6 it would have ended up being very very similar to the B58 anyway as they would have likely made the same design decisions that BMW had to in order to make it as efficient, cost effective and emissions compliant as a modern engine has to be.

So had they redesigned their own, the same people would be complaining that they had to made these design choices. You simply can't make an engine like the 2JZ anymore ... any more than you can make things like non turbo V8s ... something else people pine for.

The real question is - if you want a modern I6 RWD two seater sports car with Japanese styling ... does this fit the bill? It's a VERY small market segment these days and the few other offerings are getting VERY long in the tooth and may not be updated / just get discontinued.
Fuel efficiency of a modded 2j would be average I think but the emissions I did not consider. Very strong points and you are right about the B58 being a great motor of choice. Voted in the top 10 engines of 2019 I believe.
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      01-16-2019, 02:56 PM   #1481
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Here's my take.

I'm entirely fine with the extensive parts bin sharing, especially if it's more BMW than Toyota.

Labor and parts should be cheaper with the Supra compared to the Z4 for obvious reasons.

Yes, the Supra uses a detuned B58 vs the Z4, but we all know how easy it is to get power out of the turbo BMWs. The B58 in Supra is the same as the MPPK B58 used in the M240. That car puts down ~335whp/370wtq in stock form or around 390hp and 430tq at the flywheel. The Supra weighs about 150lbs less than a M240 8AT. An M240 8AT runs 12.5-12.7@109-111mph stock in the 1/4 mile. With a basic tune, the M240s are running low low 12s. With less weight, the Supra should be a 12.3-12.5@111-113mph car in stock form. That puts it in the acceleration realm of the Mustang GT350. This Supra is monumentally faster in stock form than the previous gen.

The power of the Supra and the power delivery will make for an extremely fun car on the street and track. It's what I love about my M235. It has plenty of power and you can use it without feeling like the car is trying to kill you. The power delivery (stock tune) is linear right up to the fuel cut. The B58 even more so. Thus, it's makes exploring limits exciting and rewarding and something you can do daily if you're a decent driver. The Supra should obviously be an even better handler.

The pricing is spot on for what you get. I'm honestly surprised it's in the low to mid 50s.

Styling wise, I like the overall shape and form. They were going for the Toyota GT2000 look which they did quite nicely. What I don't like is all the tacked on aero work. It's unnecessary. Same goes for tail end. It's too much. They should have made the rear and nose more organic looking. Right now the car is dialed up to 11 and trying a bit too hard. Lots of cars these days have this issue. Dialed down to the 9 would be perfect and timeless for the Supra. All it would take is a better choice of wheel and perhaps a very mild drop.

I'm definitely considering this car assuming it doesn't offend me once I see it in person. White for me and I'd probably yank a few of the aero bits.
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      01-16-2019, 04:04 PM   #1482
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I think it's fine for them to share stuff with BMW and create a car... Engine, chassis, interior etc. but this is 100% BMW. There is no uniqueness for this car as a Toyota. Toyota basically just slapped a body kit on the Z4, a hard top and a bunch of emblems and call this a Supra. It's a massive failure for Toyota as a car company.

The 86 cars that were created as a joint venture is a much better example of how a car is created by two companies working together. It has a chassis made and tuned by Toyota and Subaru and a Subaru flat 4 with Toyota DI technology. It utilizes the expertise of both companies to create something truly unique and an example of both company's engineering.

Will this be a fun car? Probably, but from a Toyota sports car standpoint, its a very sad day.
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      01-16-2019, 04:10 PM   #1483
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I think it's fine for them to share stuff with BMW and create a car... Engine, chassis, interior etc. but this is 100% BMW. There is no uniqueness for this car as a Toyota. Toyota basically just slapped a body kit on the Z4, a hard top and a bunch of emblems and call this a Supra. It's a massive failure for Toyota as a car company.

The 86 cars that were created as a joint venture is a much better example of how a car is created by two companies working together. It has a chassis made and tuned by Toyota and Subaru and a Subaru flat 4 with Toyota DI technology. It utilizes the expertise of both companies to create something truly unique and an example of both company's engineering.

Will this be a fun car? Probably, but from a Toyota sports car standpoint, its a very sad day.
You forgot that Toyota added much in the way of fake air vent technology.
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      01-16-2019, 04:16 PM   #1484
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What would you rather.....Supra or Z4M?

https://g29.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1574107
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      01-16-2019, 04:32 PM   #1485
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Originally Posted by MarkDemma View Post
You forgot that Toyota added much in the way of fake air vent technology.
Yes, can't forget that... I especially like the one on the door. A stick on vent that goes no where.
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      01-16-2019, 04:49 PM   #1486
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Honestly I have a hard time wrapping my head around people on a BMW forum speaking poorly about Toyota using parts supplied from BMW.
Actually, I’d like it better if it were a badged BMW. What I’m disappointed in is that I guess I was expecting Toyota to do something unique with the underpinnings and they essentially did nothing....that’s what I’m irritated by. It’s like they couldn’t be bothered and the want to charge you $50k for it. If it were BMW, I’d consider paying $60k as weird as that seems.
I don't know man, see where you're going, but think it's basically about the badge with that comment.

Toyota doesn't have the brand prestige to sell a call at $56K; this is true. However, the Supra was always a pricey sports car in comparison to say, a Nissan Z.

The Z4 is a more mature expression of the platform, while the Supra is, what it has always been, a car for more wealthy tuners.

I wouldn't plan to tune either, maybe, but I will likely get one or the other as my 3rd car.
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      01-16-2019, 04:59 PM   #1487
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I made a point earlier, but now see that the thread I started was closed.

Since this car is basically a rebadged Bimmer, I think it should have its own area on this forum right next to the G29 area in which is shares the platform.

I know there is some BMW enthusiast pushback, but seeing how this car has turned out, Toyota hasn't really engineered anything in the car of significance. Hell, they couldn't even bother to do the interior or add their infotainment system or design.

For all intents and purposes, I don't even see how you could have this car serviced at a Toyota dealership. I would totally take a Supra to United BMW here in Atlanta and call it a day.

As much as I've hated Toyota over the years, I give them credit for even swallowing their pride and releasing this car. I think they basically reasoned that there was nothing they could improve upon after receiving the platform from BMW.

Always good to have great options.
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      01-16-2019, 05:28 PM   #1488
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All this lamenting about too much BMW in a Toyota... wait until we see the rebadged Prius with a Roundel.
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      01-16-2019, 05:41 PM   #1489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Here's my take.

I'm entirely fine with the extensive parts bin sharing, especially if it's more BMW than Toyota.

Labor and parts should be cheaper with the Supra compared to the Z4 for obvious reasons.

Yes, the Supra uses a detuned B58 vs the Z4, but we all know how easy it is to get power out of the turbo BMWs. The B58 in Supra is the same as the MPPK B58 used in the M240. That car puts down ~335whp/370wtq in stock form or around 390hp and 430tq at the flywheel. The Supra weighs about 150lbs less than a M240 8AT. An M240 8AT runs 12.5-12.7@109-111mph stock in the 1/4 mile. With a basic tune, the M240s are running low low 12s. With less weight, the Supra should be a 12.3-12.5@111-113mph car in stock form. That puts it in the acceleration realm of the Mustang GT350. This Supra is monumentally faster in stock form than the previous gen.

The power of the Supra and the power delivery will make for an extremely fun car on the street and track. It's what I love about my M235. It has plenty of power and you can use it without feeling like the car is trying to kill you. The power delivery (stock tune) is linear right up to the fuel cut. The B58 even more so. Thus, it's makes exploring limits exciting and rewarding and something you can do daily if you're a decent driver. The Supra should obviously be an even better handler.

The pricing is spot on for what you get. I'm honestly surprised it's in the low to mid 50s.

Styling wise, I like the overall shape and form. They were going for the Toyota GT2000 look which they did quite nicely. What I don't like is all the tacked on aero work. It's unnecessary. Same goes for tail end. It's too much. They should have made the rear and nose more organic looking. Right now the car is dialed up to 11 and trying a bit too hard. Lots of cars these days have this issue. Dialed down to the 9 would be perfect and timeless for the Supra. All it would take is a better choice of wheel and perhaps a very mild drop.

I'm definitely considering this car assuming it doesn't offend me once I see it in person. White for me and I'd probably yank a few of the aero bits.
Problem is coming form a mkiv owner.

This car has no connection to its heritage whats so ever other then they are both I6s. They absolute have no understanding of what the supra was what it ment to its owners and why, or even Toyota fan base in general and what they wanted and why.

Which is perplexing as hell given the ft1 was the perfect modern interpretation of the Supra. Id much prefer a real Toyora build on the RCF platform and using that 460hp v8 then this abomination.

Sad thing is it might actually be a good car, but its just the wrong name. Call it a FRS 86 Celica whatever and it be ok. But to whore out your legendary halo car to a rival, that's kin to BMW making a M3/4 with Kia.

Hilarious thing is mkiv owners and previous owners are in life positions now that a 60k to 100k proper Supra would be a sure buy. With in the next 5 years ill be Lexus LC or new M4 for me. A 80k Supra(ft1) would have been a must buy.
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      01-16-2019, 06:21 PM   #1490
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Originally Posted by Nextbooost View Post
Problem is coming form a mkiv owner.

Hilarious thing is mkiv owners and previous owners are in life positions now that a 60k to 100k proper Supra would be a sure buy. With in the next 5 years ill be Lexus LC or new M4 for me. A 80k Supra(ft1) would have been a must buy.
This is, unfortunately, exactly why neither BMW or Toyota are going to spend the engineering money it would have cost to make the car that the diehard fans would have really really wanted in their heart of hearts.

If that small, small market would be willing to buy products they have already in their lineup, at a higher price point, why bother spending all that money to just cannibalize sales of those existing products?

I'm not saying it's something I agree with ... it would have been cool to have seen a "proper Supra" but alas, the beancounters would have never allowed it. In this market where everyone wants a SUV, it's a small miracle that we're even getting this.

Just curious, if at some point they drop a S58 engine in this would it be more appealing to you?
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      01-16-2019, 06:26 PM   #1491
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The worst thing is some dickhead will put an M badge on it.
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      01-16-2019, 06:48 PM   #1492
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What I dont get is if Toyota cant afford to build a proper Supra then how does everyone else do it? Isn't Toyota one of if not the biggest Auto manufacture in the world? I know GM & VW go back and fourth at #1 etc but still.. How did they afford to build the LFA? Could you imagine the much smaller Nissan outsourcing their GTR motor? They purposely designed a hand built engine for it vs just souping up the VQ that makes 350HP from 3.7 liters and revs 7500 in stock trim. They didnt want their halo car using the same or a variant of the same engine a Maxima / Pathfinder etc uses.. So Nissan didnt even take a chance with another Nissan engine let alone another brand for the whole car...
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      01-16-2019, 07:25 PM   #1493
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Not that they can't, they just didn't want to, not economically smart on their part. The LFA was an engineering/design challenge.
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      01-16-2019, 07:30 PM   #1494
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What I dont get is if Toyota cant afford to build a proper Supra then how does everyone else do it? Isn't Toyota one of if not the biggest Auto manufacture in the world? I know GM & VW go back and fourth at #1 etc but still.. How did they afford to build the LFA? Could you imagine the much smaller Nissan outsourcing their GTR motor? They purposely designed a hand built engine for it vs just souping up the VQ that makes 350HP from 3.7 liters and revs 7500 in stock trim. They didnt want their halo car using the same or a variant of the same engine a Maxima / Pathfinder etc uses.. So Nissan didnt even take a chance with another Nissan engine let alone another brand for the whole car...
Well, for one, Nissan has a bonified racing heritage, as does BMW, and most Marqs. VW has both Audi Sport and Porsche. Toyota doesn't really participate in major motorsports (NASCAR does not count!)

Toyota has been out of the bespoke racing engine game for some time. Those that remain in the company are busy over at Lexus trying to turn that flaccid mess into something that people may actually enjoy driving.

I think a friendly version of corporate espionage is afoot here. Toyota has torn down every bit of that Z4, parts and engine soup to nuts. I predict in the next couple of years, you'll see something similar in Lexus as far as sportiness.

I understand your point on the whoring out of the legendary halo car, but I give credit for swallowing ones pride, admitting that you can't do it anymore, and seeking out help and education from a master. Going to BMW, the company they've mimicked for 20 years now, must have been humbling, but the long term benefits will reap rewards. Most true BMW guys won't buy this car, but we aren't the market either. Young, aspiring Toyota owners are the target, so if they can steal some sales from the BMW 2 or 3 series, mission would be accomplished.

The other issue is drivers like me; I'm now electric and am wavering on ever going back full time. (own an older 911 for Saturdays and track days). However, driving the Supra on the weekends and when the kids aren't a factor would be very fun.
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      01-16-2019, 08:22 PM   #1495
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Originally Posted by rolltidef32 View Post
Well, for one, Nissan has a bonified racing heritage, as does BMW, and most Marqs. VW has both Audi Sport and Porsche. Toyota doesn't really participate in major motorsports (NASCAR does not count!)

Toyota has been out of the bespoke racing engine game for some time. Those that remain in the company are busy over at Lexus trying to turn that flaccid mess into something that people may actually enjoy driving.
Wat.

Gazoo Racing is Toyota's brand.

The won Le Man's last year, and did fantastic in the WRC with a freaking boosted Yaris.
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      01-16-2019, 08:28 PM   #1496
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Originally Posted by rolltidef32 View Post
Well, for one, Nissan has a bonified racing heritage, as does BMW, and most Marqs. VW has both Audi Sport and Porsche. Toyota doesn't really participate in major motorsports (NASCAR does not count!)

Toyota has been out of the bespoke racing engine game for some time. Those that remain in the company are busy over at Lexus trying to turn that flaccid mess into something that people may actually enjoy driving.
Wat.

Gazoo Racing is Toyota's brand.

The won Le Man's last year, and did fantastic in the WRC with a freaking boosted Yaris.
Gazoo? Guess I'm out of the loop. WEC does have a Toyota in one of the classes. Thought it was Toyota Hybrid.

At any rate, the racing heritage isn't strong like say, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, even Mitsubishi in rally.
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