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      05-24-2022, 02:58 PM   #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
The top Z is a appearance package that will sell at very low numbers at initial launch. It is a Perf trim with bronze wheels and special yellow paint. By the time the G87 arrives the Proto will not exist.

A Nismo version will be more of a comparison to a G87 M2. Again the base Z is $39.9k, $20k+ less than a G87 M2. These cars aren't even remotely in the same price category.

The better question is why spend $50k on a Per trim Z, when the rwd M240 will start at $46.5k?
I know you want to argue Base vs Base pricing, but what I'm saying is if you're going to get the Performance Pkg Z, why not spend the extra $8 to 10K and get the new M2 ? Its like going from a Camaro Z28 to a Corvette Z06 for relatively small money.
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      05-24-2022, 03:00 PM   #596
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$10k+ more, that is 20% the price of Perf trim Z. Not chump change. That is assuming a base G87 is $60k.
The current gen M2 is nearly $59K. The base G87 will likely be more like $65K+. BMW has been increasing M car prices dramatically over the past few years.
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      05-24-2022, 03:05 PM   #597
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Quote:
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The better question is why spend $50k on a Per trim Z, when the rwd M240 will start at $46.5k?
Because an M240 is not a sports car. I can attest to that as I'm an M235. It's great sports coupe 2+2, but it doesn't have the full dynamics of RWD two seater with the motor midship and you sitting near on the rear axle.

Also, you'd be hard pressed to find an M240 RWD for $46.5K as most people want leather, a color other plain white, Nav, and the typical creature comforts. Most RWD M240s will have around $5K-7K in options.
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      05-24-2022, 04:09 PM   #598
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Quote:
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The B58 is modular motor and it's block also used in the B57 diesel motor. It was cost saving measure hence its "modular" design. All B series motors share their blocks between their gasoline and diesel variants. The design nothing to do with performance, longevity, etc. in the gasoline motors. It was all about saving money. There's plenty of information out there supporting this.

The B58 isn't an S58 (or S55). If it was, BMW would have used the B58 block and head for the S58. They didn't.

BMW didn't push the N55 in the OG M2 past "365hp" (it really made around 400hp/420tq) because they have long term reliability requirements and they knew some would be road raced. The biggest issue was intercooling. It ran the same IC as every other F series N55 car. An upgraded IC and mild tune is all that's really needed to reliably get another 40-50whp and 50-70wtq for the track. You can easily push more with fueling upgrades and way more with relatively cheap turbo swap.

N54s and N55s have shown that they can handle massively more power than stock and closely rivaling that of the B58. The N54s and N55s just require additional fueling and turbo(s). Their open deck blocks aren't a problem when it comes to stuff breaking. Rods and pistons almost always give up before the block does in the N54 and N55.

The N54, N55, B58, and S55 all have their Achilles heals, especially once you start adding 25%+ more power than stock. Everyone is so focused on the big parts, but the reality is it's usually a little part that can't handle the additional power over the long term is what ultimately takes these motors out.

By your own logic Nissan must have had cost savings in mind when they made their own bespoke VR38DETT for the GTR closed deck
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      05-24-2022, 05:02 PM   #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerkHealer View Post
I know you want to argue Base vs Base pricing, but what I'm saying is if you're going to get the Performance Pkg Z, why not spend the extra $8 to 10K and get the new M2 ? Its like going from a Camaro Z28 to a Corvette Z06 for relatively small money.
I am saying another 20% increase in msrp for a G87 with zero options is a lot for your average customer shopping a Perf trim Z. $10k is best case scenario(if G87 is $59.9k), plus it is only a stripper G87. Then you have more tax and higher insurance on the BMW. If you want the equipment on the Perf Trim Z, you will want Exec Pack on the M2 at the minimum. They are just different price points for different buyers.

Last edited by M3WC; 05-24-2022 at 05:40 PM..
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      05-24-2022, 05:08 PM   #600
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Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
The current gen M2 is nearly $59K. The base G87 will likely be more like $65K+. BMW has been increasing M car prices dramatically over the past few years.
I think the base msrp at lowest $59,950, most likely low $60k. Comp in mid $60k. Comp could be delayed as much as LCI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Because an M240 is not a sports car. I can attest to that as I'm an M235. It's great sports coupe 2+2, but it doesn't have the full dynamics of RWD two seater with the motor midship and you sitting near on the rear axle.

Also, you'd be hard pressed to find an M240 RWD for $46.5K as most people want leather, a color other plain white, Nav, and the typical creature comforts. Most RWD M240s will have around $5K-7K in options.
I don't disagree.

Last edited by M3WC; 05-24-2022 at 05:16 PM..
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      05-24-2022, 05:31 PM   #601
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Some pics of the elusive Sport trim.




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      05-24-2022, 05:54 PM   #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
By your own logic Nissan must have had cost savings in mind when they made their own bespoke VR38DETT for the GTR closed deck
My argument is that the B58 closed deck design had nothing to do with reliability or performance. It was so that it could withstand the pressures of a turbo diesel combustion and so the company could save money by only needing to design one architecture for it's garden variety gasoline and diesel motors. The fact that the block can handle way more power than stock was positive attribute as well as it's larger turbo, improved fueling, and better, though WAY more complex, intercooling.

The S55, the S58, and the VR38DETT are indeed closed deck designs because they are high revving performance motors and make big power stock. These motors are designed for legit track use so yeah, closed deck is the preferred design. The S58 block is similar to the B58, but they indeed different in terms of bore and stroke as well as pistons, rods, bearings, etc.

Can the B58 block itself likely handle stupid power compared to the N54/N55? No doubt it can. Can the rods, bearings, and pistons do it? Nope. No better than the N54/N55 could over the long term. If you upgrade the rotating stuff and want to go after power bragging rights, then yeah, the B58 is definitely the way to go. I'd also have no issue owning the B58. It's a stellar motor and one of the best out there.
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      05-26-2022, 11:01 AM   #603
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Official color options (w/ interiors) for 2023 Nissan Z in US market

https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/th...s-market.1177/

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      05-26-2022, 11:22 AM   #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
Some pics of the elusive Sport trim.




Looks like FI is already working on an exhaust for the Z. I can attest to the quality of that company as I have their exhaust on my 3.5 N/A.
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      05-26-2022, 11:25 AM   #605
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I like it more than I thought I would....but it needs a V8!
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      05-26-2022, 03:11 PM   #606
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I like it more than I thought I would....but it needs a V8!
I was always hoping there they would make a 400Z with a small, high revving V8, ala Audi or BMW.
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      05-26-2022, 05:05 PM   #607
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Interesting opinions for sure.
But one thing is clear that the car was a success!
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      05-27-2022, 12:12 AM   #608
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The base car is not bad looking (I dig it). Too bad its going to be impossible to find with a reasonable price
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      05-27-2022, 08:02 AM   #609
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Quote:
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I was always hoping there they would make a 400Z with a small, high revving V8, ala Audi or BMW.
The only V8 Nissan has is their 5.6 truck engine and they have no money for sports car R&D. So a 370z with a Q50 engine is the best they can do.
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      05-27-2022, 08:05 AM   #610
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The only V8 Nissan has is their 5.6 truck engine and they have no money for sports car R&D. So a 370z with a Q50 engine is the best they can do.
This.
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      05-27-2022, 09:14 AM   #611
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The only V8 Nissan has is their 5.6 truck engine and they have no money for sports car R&D. So a 370z with a Q50 engine is the best they can do.
Yes. I'm well aware of that.

You understand you can want something to happen and understand it's unlikely, yes?
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      05-27-2022, 06:16 PM   #612
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The VK56 is huge. Its going to be hard to stuff that in the FM chassis cars and keep the handling balance intact.
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      05-29-2022, 09:00 PM   #613
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There was also the VK45 used in the Infiniti M45. When I had my 350z I always wondered why they didn't try that instead of the 3.7 for the following generation. Would have been badass.
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      06-04-2022, 11:20 AM   #614
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https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/th...ressions.1223/

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      06-06-2022, 10:01 AM   #615
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TL;DW........cliffs?
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      06-11-2022, 10:39 AM   #616
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Car & Driver with a comparison to the Supra.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...upra-compared/
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