Navy thread

[Llarry]

How about a Navy thread? We've got some Navy veterans and retirees here who hopefully can contribute to this thread.

I'd like to start on a serious note: Korea. I hope the world is not taking its eye off the North Korea ball. There are plenty of troubles here and there around the world but few risk disaster as much as the North Korean regime -- and their Navy, I believe, is destined to play an important role in their future plans.

At the risk of dabbling in politics, let me say that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is pretty much none of those things: Not democratic, not for the benefit of the people and not a republic. It is closer to an autocratic monarchy; often described as the Kim Family Regime. I'll just call it North Korea or NK.

In the conventional sense, the NK Navy is pathetic, with mostly Soviet and Chinese Communist ship types that are many decades old. Some of the ship types date to pre-WW2. That said, there is something to be said for numbers, e.g., enough people with pitchforks can ultimately overwhelm an armed opponent. Fortunately, NK does not really have the numbers either, making them a third-rate Navy in almost all respects. The first four photos reflect that status.

The problem is that NK has figured out that the optimum strategic weapon is a submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM), and they have devoted considerable effort to developing that capability. The submarine that they have chosen to use to launch these missiles is apparently the Romeo-class Diesel-electric submarine, a Soviet design dating to the 1950s and built in large numbers in China. Information is difficult to come by, as the NK regime is among the most opaque in the world; I hope that the attached diagram of a modified Romeo is accurate, as it indicates the NKs have deleted half the battery capacity of the boat, severely limiting stealthy submerged operations. They have also test-fired a SLBM, although I do not know whether the test-firings have been from submarines or perhaps submerged test barges.

Of course, the modified Romeo may just be the initial effort -- I'm sure they'd like something with greater capabilities, but NK has few friends in the world and I think even the Chinese are guarded in what technology they will share with the Kim family regime.

Next I'd like to take a look at the Republic of Korea Navy (ROKN); the South Koreans are building a world-class modern Navy and that should be a fuller post.

[Llarry]

The Republic of Korea Navy (ROKN) is an entirely different deal than the NK Navy. The ROKN is a modern, state-of-the-art Navy with a well-balanced force of ships and aircraft and is likely more than capable of dealing with the North Korean Navy in any confrontation. The problem, of course, is that if an NK missile submarine becomes operational, might they get off a missile or two before being hunted down and sunk? And if the missiles have nuclear warheads, disaster looms. The South Korean capital is one of the largest cities in the world; a single warhead could potentially kill millions of people.

The most capable warships in the S. Korean Navy are the AEGIS destroyers, which are a modified/slightly enlarged version of the U.S. Navy type. The destroyers are backed up by smaller missile frigates and the ROKN has missile patrol boats as well.

The ROKN submarine force is much fewer in numbers than the NK's but includes excellent boats with air-independent propulsion, as well as conventional Diesel-electric boats.

The S. Koreans also have a sizeable Marine Corps, as well as a variety of amphibious warfare ships. The most impressive are the Dokdo helicopter carriers. They also have air-cushion assault craft.

The ROKN has a variety of support ships, including replenishment ships for sustained operations at sea.

Finally, the ROKN has its own air arm, including P-3C and new P-8A maritime patrol aircraft and helicopters for ASW and amphibious assault.

[Llarry]

Although my first couple of posts sounds like something out of Jane's Fighting Ships, I figure anything and everything is fair game for this thread: Sea stories? Fine... bring 'em on!

[Llarry]

I was on active duty in the Navy from 1970 to 1995 -- the first 12 years as enlisted (10 years as a sailor and 2 years as a Chief Petty Officer) and the last 13 years as an officer.

Due to the nature of my job specialty and duties, in that 25 years I was only on ships for a total of six months and change.

My first two sea assignments were short temporary duties aboard submarines on special operations missions. Can't really talk about that, even 50 years later. The first run was on USS Wahoo (SS 565) which was one of a limited number of post-WW2 Diesel-electric submarines. Life on a Diesel was different -- showers once per week, shared a bunk with another sailor in the torpedo stowage room, etc. That was '72 and later that year I did a run on the nuclear-powered USS Pintado (SSN 672), which was much more civilized: My own bunk, daily showers, etc. Those two short sub trips were the only sea duty I had as an enlisted; I've mentioned in the airplane thread that I also had duty flying aircrew on an EP-3B for 90 days or so -- that was in '73.

It was only as an officer that I experienced life on a surface ship. The first trip was on the USS Peleliu (LHA 5), a huge amphibious assault vessel that carries 1,000+ Marines, helicopters and landing craft. We went aboard in Long Beach, California, stopped off Camp Pendleton just up the coast to embark the Marines and headed for the Aleutians. In November! The Marines were to do a practice assault under cold conditions on the uninhabited island Amchitka. I stayed on the warm LHA. I suspect those Marines had a pretty rough couple of days. The task force included both USN and Canadian Navy ships, which was kind of cool. Once the exercise had concluded we headed for Vancouver, B.C. for a port call. That was a highlight; I actually detached to return to my permanent duty station in Hawaii the next day, but had one night on the town and it was amazing! No U.S. Navy sailor (or officer) could buy a beer that night -- wherever we went somebody wanted to buy us a beer. Wonderful memory!

That LHA trip in late 1982 was in training to be an officer-in-charge of a team. In 1983 I was tapped to be the OIC of a team (about 10 sailors) on the USS Leahy (CG 16) a missile cruiser attached to the task group centered on the carrier Midway. I flew to Japan to go aboard and once we left port we headed south and mostly operated in the S. China Sea. As a missile shooter, we mostly stayed over the horizon from the carrier. We did a port call in Hong Kong for a few days and several port calls in Subic Bay, Philippines. After about six weeks on Leahy, I was to be relieved by another officer, but suddenly the plan changed as the battleship New Jersey, which had been recommissioned as part of the Reagan defense buildup, had been ordered to Central America. The Leahy was detached from the Midway battle group and we transited the Pacific with the New Jersey. Highlights of that period included getting overflown by Soviet Tu-95 or -142 'Bear' long range patrol aircraft and watching the New Jersey fire her massive 16-inch guns. (The Leahy had two 20mm close-in weapons system guns but was otherwise all-missile.) I ended up getting off the Leahy in Pearl Harbor as she continued on to Central America.

The last time I went to sea was in USS Worden (CG 18), Leahy's sister ship, as part of the carrier Constellation battle group. Connie and Worden were in work-ups for a major deployment and we spent all of our time in the Hawaii/SoCal region. We did take time out to make a port call in San Francisco for Fleet Week. That was a pretty short trip -- about 30 days.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Llarry

I was on active duty in the Navy from 1970 to 1995 -- the first 12 years as enlisted (10 years as a sailor and 2 years as a Chief Petty Officer) and the last 13 years as an officer.

Due to the nature of my job specialty and duties, in that 25 years I was only on ships for a total of six months and change.

My first two sea assignments were short temporary duties aboard submarines on special operations missions. Can't really talk about that, even 50 years later. The first run was on USS Wahoo (SS 565) which was one of a limited number of post-WW2 Diesel-electric submarines. Life on a Diesel was different -- showers once per week, shared a bunk with another sailor in the torpedo stowage room, etc. That was '72 and later that year I did a run on the nuclear-powered USS Pintado (SSN 672), which was much more civilized: My own bunk, daily showers, etc. Those two short sub trips were the only sea duty I had as an enlisted; I've mentioned in the airplane thread that I also had duty flying aircrew on an EP-3B for 90 days or so -- that was in '73.

It was only as an officer that I experienced life on a surface ship. The first trip was on the USS Peleliu (LHA 5), a huge amphibious assault vessel that carriers 1,000+ Marines, helicopters and landing craft. We went aboard in Long Beach, California, stopped off Camp Pendleton just up the coast to embark the Marines and headed for the Aleutians. In November! The Marines were to do a practice assault under cold conditions on the uninhabited island Amchitka. I stayed on the warm LHA. I suspect those Marines had a pretty rough couple of days. The task force included both USN and Canadian Navy ships, which was kind of cool. Once the exercise had concluded we headed for Vancouver, B.C. for a port call. That was a highlight; I actually detached to return to my permanent duty station in Hawaii the next day, but had one night on the town and it was amazing! No U.S. Navy sailor (or officer) could buy a beer that night -- wherever we went somebody wanted to buy us a beer. Wonderful memory!

That LHA trip in late 1982 was in training to be an officer-in-charge of a team. In 1983 I was tapped to be the OIC of a team (about 10 sailors) on the USS Leahy (CG 16) a missile cruiser attached to the task group centered on the carrier Midway. I flew to Japan to go aboard and once we left port we headed south and mostly operated in the S. China Sea. As a missile shooter, we mostly stayed over the horizon from the carrier. We did a port call in Hong Kong for a few days and several port calls in Subic Bay, Philippines. After about six weeks on Leahy, I was to be relieved by another officer, but suddenly the plan changed as the battleship New Jersey, which had been recommissioned as part of the Reagan defense buildup, had been ordered to Central America. The Leahy was detached from the Midway battle group and we transited the Pacific with the New Jersey. Highlights of that period included getting overflown by Soviet Tu-95 or -142 'Bear' long range patrol aircraft and watching the New Jersey fire her massive 16-inch guns. (The Leahy had two 20mm close-in weapons system guns but was otherwise all-missile.) I ended up getting off the Leahy in Pearl Harbor as she continued on to Central America.

The last time I went to sea was in USS Worden (CG 18), Leahy's sister ship, as part of the carrier Constellation battle group. Connie and Worden were in work-ups for a major deployment and we spent all of our time in the Hawaii/SoCal region. We did take time out to make a port call in San Francisco for Fleet Week. That was a pretty short trip -- about 30 days.

We've had more than a few of those Bears flying close to our island Llarry, with their faces poking out of those small windows appearing to say 'hi'.

[UncleWede]

Preface this with Thanks to all of you.

I have been insulin-dependent since 14, so I could never actively serve. But once I graduated HS in 84, I started working for the Navy at the NAWC Pt. Mugu. Spent 15 years working all kinds of projects. Coding R3 units and building test sets from scratch for QF-4s, basic data inventory, even a few months coding in the F-14 SITS lab. Have you ever seen a F14 radar directed at a seagull on the rocks? I learned then that when the cockpit rolled out of the bay, it was definitely time to get out of the surf.

Did I mention surf? Pt. Mugu, on a south swell, has a wave equivalent to the Bonsai Pipeline, with the exception that the bottom is sand and not coral, and an average water temp of 58. The weather station had a box drawn on the preview screen to tell us when the storm came into the window, and 3 days until surf arrived. We would surf our lunch hour anytime between 11 and 1. I was known as "polar bear" because my coworkers would come out and check what shade of blue I was in my trunks, then decide whether they could wear the Springer or needed a Full.

Kauai is a beautiful island, especially when your rich uncle is paying you to go there. I did some coding of the radars that visiting navies would use on the submarine test range. Could never get them to allow me to, just for a brief second, broadcast something sinister like a missile launch at JDF. We would work HARD those 2 weeks we were there, 12 hour days plus driving time, but we enjoyed ourselves equally hard. I lost the car keys out at Polihale, but amazingly found them again rolling in the surf, that water is so clear.

[asianF22]

USS La Salle AGF-3

my first ship, was based in Bahrain and was the ONLY Navy ship painted white.

[3798j]

If we go way back in time...ships like the Kearsarge-class pre-dreadnought battleships were white. Here's BB-6 USS Kentucky c.1900

[infinitekidM2C]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

Preface this with Thanks to all of you.

I have been insulin-dependent since 14, so I could never actively serve. But once I graduated HS in 84, I started working for the Navy at the NAWC Pt. Mugu. Spent 15 years working all kinds of projects. Coding R3 units and building test sets from scratch for QF-4s, basic data inventory, even a few months coding in the F-14 SITS lab. Have you ever seen a F14 radar directed at a seagull on the rocks? I learned then that when the cockpit rolled out of the bay, it was definitely time to get out of the surf.

Did I mention surf? Pt. Mugu, on a south swell, has a wave equivalent to the Bonsai Pipeline, with the exception that the bottom is sand and not coral, and an average water temp of 58. The weather station had a box drawn on the preview screen to tell us when the storm came into the window, and 3 days until surf arrived. We would surf our lunch hour anytime between 11 and 1. I was known as "polar bear" because my coworkers would come out and check what shade of blue I was in my trunks, then decide whether they could wear the Springer or needed a Full.

Kauai is a beautiful island, especially when your rich uncle is paying you to go there. I did some coding of the radars that visiting navies would use on the submarine test range. Could never get them to allow me to, just for a brief second, broadcast something sinister like a missile launch at JDF. We would work HARD those 2 weeks we were there, 12 hour days plus driving time, but we enjoyed ourselves equally hard. I lost the car keys out at Polihale, but amazingly found them again rolling in the surf, that water is so clear.

Trying to start War Games eh?

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by asianF22

USS La Salle AGF-3

my first ship, was based in Bahrain and was the ONLY Navy ship painted white.

Way back in the 1950s, Commander Middle East Forces was a tiny command with one ex-WW2 small seaplane tender (AVP) serving as flagship and typically a couple of destroyers. The flagship -- if memory serves there was more than one AVP that served in that role -- was traditionally painted white for the brutal heat.

Here's a photo of the 1959 flagship.

[Tommy-G]

I give EVERYONE and ANYONE in the armed forces a huge hats off. I am not as courageous and Thank all of you

[ezaircon4jc]

I was in '75-'79, Carter's Navy. My best friend and I ran out division (OI) a lot like M*A*S*H. We got away with so many shenanigans we should have spent most of our time in the brig! I learned then that as long as one was good at their job they could get away with almost anything! I got out for a few reasons; Carter for one, being on the USS Neverport for another and the Navy telling me that my pay was commensurate with civilian pay (my rate & NEC corresponded to Air Traffic Controller), which it didn't! On my last eval our department head recommended me for all the Navy's officer programs. No offense to those that went the officer route, but I almost burst out laughing. The last thing I was/am is officer material. I did get the best career, ever.

[JustinHEMI]

USN 1998-2007, USS Miami SSN-755 2000-2004, deployed for OIF in 2003.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

USN 1998-2007, USS Miami SSN-755 2000-2004, deployed for OIF in 2003.

The Silent Service.. oh, but the stories we could tell...

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

USN 1998-2007, USS Miami SSN-755 2000-2004, deployed for OIF in 2003.

What a great photo! From a helo or a drone?

Were you an 1120 officer or enlisted? If enlisted, rating?

Odds are, you worked aft in the engineering plant, which was kind of terra incognita to me. I recollect that once I had a hot message or something for the skipper and he was aft, so I had to go aft. I had no clue what I was looking at back there...

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by Llarry

What a great photo! From a helo or a drone?

Were you an 1120 officer or enlisted? If enlisted, rating?

Odds are, you worked aft in the engineering plant, which was kind of terra incognita to me. I recollect that once I had a hot message or something for the skipper and he was aft, so I had to go aft. I had no clue what I was looking at back there...

I'm pretty sure it was a helo.

Yes I was an MM1/nuke. Spent 04-07 at the MARF prototype teaching officer students.

[Llarry]

Taiwan's navy -- the Republic of China Navy -- is, like all the other Taiwan armed services, greatly outnumbered by the mainland Chinese forces. They've got some modern fleet units, though, as well as some old relics.

The pride of the ROCN is probably the four Keelung class missile destroyers. These four ships were originally ordered by the Shah of Iran's Navy before the Iranian revolution; they were taken over by the U.S. Navy as DDGs upon completion, and transferred to Taiwan some years ago.

The Navy also includes a number of frigates and smaller combatants such as corvettes and missile boats. I would think that if the Chinese come, they will be quickly overwhelmed.

Given the huge Chinese submarine force, the obvious deficiency of the ROCN is submarines; they have only two. I would think that Chinese submarines would surround the island in large numbers in the event of hostilities, although I'm not aware of any Chinese submarine-launched cruise missiles.

The ROCN also possesses a number of ancient ex-WW2 landing ships; I suspect this is more the idea of "we can invade you, too" rather than any realistic capability. There is a robust ROC Marine Corps, though.

The current U.S. Commander-in-Chief has stated that the U.S. will aid Taiwan if attacked by China, so that tilts the balance a lot, but will that continue to be the policy of future administrations?

[Llarry]

I'm going to call this the interesting/different ships post -- ships that don't conform to the norm.

Let me start with the Norwegian intelligence collection ship FS Eger (formerly Marjata): This has to be one of the most bizarre hull forms I've ever seen. The Eger was designed to operate in the far North targeting operations of the Soviet/Russian Navy there. I suspect she has the full spectrum of intelligence collection equipment: acoustic (sonar), communications, ELINT, telemetry, etc. Not to mention the human eye. The Russians have been rather testy about the Norwegian intell collection ships and complain and harass them. The Norwegians just keep on keeping on.

The Eger is 267 feet long and has a beam at the stern of 131 feet. That's approx the same beam as a U.S. aircraft carrier! She displaces 7,560 tons and is powered by both Diesels and gas turbines, but is not speedy: 15 knots max. I believe the unusual hull form makes the Eger more stable in rough seas. As befits a ship engaging in extended independent operations she has a helo deck for resupply or MEDEVAC.

She was replaced almost 10 years ago by a new intell collection ship which assumed the name Marjata; the new one looks like a small cruise ship but with lots of antennas. (not pictured)

Next up: The Singapore Navy's Formidable class stealth frigates. These are actually not that unusual in the year 2023 as a number of navies have pursued stealth in warship design. Singapore has six of these and they are based on a French frigate design. 377 feet long with a 54 foot beam, they displace 3,200 tons. They are Diesel-powered and have a max speed of 27 knots (31 mph, 50 km/hr.)

Next is the U.S. Navy Zumwalt class destroyers. The original plan was for a large class but huge cost overruns caused the number built to be cut to three. The cost was horrendous, as was the size. These are cruiser-size ships: 610 feet long with an 80 foot beam and a full load displacement of over 14,00 tons. They feature an innovative gas turbine/electric drive. The two shelters forward of the superstructure are for 155mm guns. Unfortunately, the Navy has no ammunition for these guns and so they are effectively useless -- ridiculous!

The Zumwalts feature stealth design and a wave-piercing bow configuration.

The other controversial recent U.S. ship class is the "Littoral Combat Ship" of LCS, which would probably be called a corvette or frigate in any other navy. The LCSs were made in two forms: One is a conventional monohull and I won't cover that here; the other is the Independence class and that is decidedly unconventional: Sort of a monohull with outriggers, making it a semi-trimaran. Both classes of LCS are lightly-equipped, leading to the uncomplimentary moniker of "Little Crappy Ship" in the fleet.

The LCSs were programmed to have various modules (anti-submarine, mine warfare, etc.) added with space reserved for them; unfortunately, the modules have failed to materialize. That leaves these ships with a 57mm gun and little else in the way of armament, although the photos show that the LCS has had a point-defense anti-air missile added above the helo hangar. They do have facilities for both manned and drone helos.

The Independence (LCS 2) class is 414 feet long with a 104 foot beam; it is powered by a Diesel/gas turbine powerplant and is fast: 44 knots (81 km/hr.) Displacement is 3,400 tons.

Next up is the Swedish Navy Visby class missile corvette with stealth features. 239 feet long with a 34 foot beam and rated at 640 tons. The Visbys have a combination Diesel or gas turbine powerplant and can do 35 knots. The shortcoming is a lack of air defense capability but an improved series is on the way that rectifies that shortcoming.

Finally, a do-over from the Taiwan navy post above: The Tuojiang stealth missile corvette is an interesting design. Diesel powering waterjets for 45 knots and armed with Taiwan-designed antiship missiles. 200 feet long with a 48 foot beam and displacing 600 tons.

[Llarry]

In celebration of Finland's joining NATO today, allow me to briefly introduce The Finnish Navy.

Geographic considerations mean that the Navy primarily operates in the South. The Navy is pretty small, with the emphasis on fast attack craft and mine warfare -- perfect given the location in the Baltic Sea.

The largest vessels in the Navy are minelayers, although these are also armed with guns and vertical-launch air defense missiles.

With minelayers also come minesweepers and the Navy has several.

Rounding out the inventory are a number of fast attack craft armed with guns and Israeli Gabriel Mk 5 antiship missiles.

All in all, Finland's Navy can be summed up as small but well-suited for Finland's position in the far North of the NATO alliance.

I've not included photos; all the photos I can find are pre-modernization and the ships' appearance has changed.

[ricardofors68]

Ahh, old black shoe and bubblehead Navy salts. Cheers to all!
My short stint was from '92 to '13. Started as an Aviation Structural Mechanic (Structures), did some 9545 (Law Enforcement Specialist) time, then more aviation combined with career counseling. 9 deployments in 4 carriers. Lived overseas and east coast. Not a lot of photos, but I'll dig some declassified stuff.

Weird time to be in the Navy, it was a generational turnover. A change of policies, ways of doing business and to "cleanse" the USN top to bottom.

Stories for days, most of those can be shared as well.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by ricardofors68

My short stint was from '92 to '13. Started as an Aviation Structural Mechanic (Structures), did some 9545 (Law Enforcement Specialist) time, then more aviation combined with career counseling. 9 deployments in 4 carriers. Lived overseas and east coast. Not a lot of photos, but I'll dig some declassified stuff.

Weird time to be in the Navy, it was a generational turnover. A change of policies, ways of doing business and to "cleanse" the USN top to bottom.

Stories for days, most of those can be shared as well.

My relatively short stint as a Chief (80-82) was mostly out of rate: I did drugs & alcohol, public affairs and command career counselor. That freed up the rest of the command's Chiefs to concentrate on their jobs without having to hassle with the additional duties. The thing is, when I made Chief I went through a bit of a crisis: I loved being a whitehat and actually doing the job; as a CPO, then an officer the job got more and more distant.

Welcome any input you have to this thread!

[ricardofors68]

I kept my white hat. My mouth and pride made decisions for me, needless to say, I never saw gold. But, like the tv commercial says: no regerts!