Fuel for the fire - Automobile Review 08 'M3

[TheAcAvenger]

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84607


"The 2008 BMW M3 is either a complete winner or a big disappointment. It all depends on your expectations.

If you're looking for a supremely fast, incredibly capable back-road stormer, you won't be disappointed; the E92 is even faster than the previous E46 M3.

If, however, you think the M3 should be more than just speed, you'll be disappointed. After only a few seconds behind the wheel, it becomes obvious that the M3's engineers traded some driver involvement in return for more speed."

There are at least 10 of us who said this was going to be the case... That what defined the last generations of Ms (E36, E46, E39, especially) was not how capable they were, but what made them special. So when you say that a 135i/335i/Z4M isn't an M, think about what makes an M, and remember that just because it has an M badge on it, doesn't mean it embodies everything that makes an M an M.

Flame on

[wj4]

it becomes obvious that the M3's engineers traded some driver involvement in return for more speed."

I don't think it's just BMW, but the trend in general. All of these newer cars have some sort of non-traditional manual gearboxes that shift faster, but it takes the fun and driving experience from the driver. As the technology era keep on advancing, we will only continue to see cars with more gadgets in them, making the statement more apparent.

OT, I wonder how close of a 50/50 weight distribution ratio is the new M3 is.

[TheAcAvenger]

I've noticed a very similar trend. Between the added safety features, everyone's obsession with gadgets, and the fact that cars today have to be bigger for people to feel comfortable in them around SUVs have all changed the industry alot. As the germans are leaving driving dynamics for comfort, it seems that the japanese are doing just the opposite and they're both starting to meet somewhere in the middle.

It kind of leads me to understand people's obsession with 911s. Kinda cool to see a car that hasn't changed very much despite the times. Nice to see muscle car fans getting their fix over the next coming years as well. That's never been my style, but its nice to see some niche markets still in-tact or rediscovered.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...7_2008_bmw_m3/

"The 2008 BMW M3 is either a complete winner or a big disappointment. It all depends on your expectations.

If you're looking for a supremely fast, incredibly capable back-road stormer, you won't be disappointed; the E92 is even faster than the previous E46 M3.

If, however, you think the M3 should be more than just speed, you'll be disappointed. After only a few seconds behind the wheel, it becomes obvious that the M3's engineers traded some driver involvement in return for more speed."

There are at least 10 of us who said this was going to be the case... That what defined the last generations of Ms (E36, E46, E39, especially) was not how capable they were, but what made them special. So when you say that a 135i/335i/Z4M isn't an M, think about what makes an M, and remember that just because it has an M badge on it, doesn't mean it embodies everything that makes an M an M.

Flame on

Oh no, I was hoping this was not going to happen...
I guess, if true, the 335 is my only option next...

[TheAcAvenger]

Originally Posted by dr325i

Oh no, I was hoping this was not going to happen...
I guess, if true, the 335 is my only option next...

Or a 911. You were most likely being sarcastic, but if you're not, don't rule anything out without a test drive. Road and Trash had a little blurb with some nice things to say. Hopefully, their full review will be a positive one.

[Mr. Furley]

Assuming with some mods, shouldn't the 335i be faster than the M3 given more TQ?

One thing I am wondering is, will the M3 have a better suspension then the 335i? I've been told the 335i has a lot of stamped metal pieces.

[TheAcAvenger]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furley

Assuming with some mods, shouldn't the 335i be faster than the M3 given more TQ?

One thing I am wondering is, will the M3 have a better suspension then the 335i? I've been told the 335i has a lot of stamped metal pieces.

In response to your first question, it depends on what you mean by some mods. The power numbers for a prototype V2+Exhaust setup car laid down 4 more whp, and almost 100+wtq. Taking gearing into account, the gap closes extremely quickly to the point where everyone is still picking the M3 to win. I understood their logic at one point, although I don't remember anymore. There have been a few other threads about this. Check the FI section and the General E90 sections for those.

However, if you look up the icon referred to as "Walked U." He's been keeping up with slightly modded M5s. He's running DPs, plus catback, plus tuned v2, and possbly an IC? (This thread was really recent. Search for Walked U and it'll be one of his most recent thread. You can't miss it)

The most significant disadvantage the 335i would have would be in the handlign department. That's generally what makes an M an M. However, if you're like me, you believe that no standard suspension setup (outside of your exotics) are designed to handle to the fullest extent. They're designed to handle extremely well and yet provide a decent ride for the customer. If you don't mind a harsh ride, there are plenty of aftermarket suspension options for you to make your car a superior handler to the M3. And for everyone that tells you that the M3s suspension is the best handling possible, ask them why all the top manufacturers make aftermarket coilover systems for M3s. If you're more into good handling and a comfortable ride, then the M3 will probably be superior. Since it should have vastly better handling than a stock 3-er, and it's new fancy smancy edc or whatever they're calling it should make it a comfortable ride. A KW/Bilstein equipped 3er should will give you better handling than 3er stock and should maintain comfort, if you like to be somewhere in the middle.

As far as deciding how you want your suspension to be, it's basically about whether handling or comfort is more important to you.

IMO, in terms of handling capability I would guess:
Stock 3er<<Bilstein<KWV2<KWV3/M3<TCKline/Ground Control (From experience, my preference between those two varies by application)<Moton
+be sure to add in sways if you want to compare to M3s.

In terms of comfort, I would guess:
Moton<<<<<GC< TCK (my car does feel really smooth, though. Barely any worse than stock. Especially once the run flats come off) < M3/KWV3/KWV2 < Bilstein < Stock 3er.

Now that I think about it, you only care about anything I typed if you like to mod things. For me, unless its a P-car, or a Ferrari, I'd much rather mod to suit my tastes and to create my frankenstein of sorts than to get it all out of the box at one time. My favorite part about my car thus far has just been seeing it change in the 7 months I've owned it.

[ChineseGuy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furley

Assuming with some mods, shouldn't the 335i be faster than the M3 given more TQ?

One thing I am wondering is, will the M3 have a better suspension then the 335i? I've been told the 335i has a lot of stamped metal pieces.

well......the M3 has LSD......

[TheAcAvenger]

Quiafe makes one, Hartge makes one. I think there's a 3rd vendor as well.

Pick your poison.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger

Or a 911. You were most likely being sarcastic, but if you're not, don't rule anything out without a test drive. Road and Trash had a little blurb with some nice things to say. Hopefully, their full review will be a positive one.

I'd say the Cayman S is truer to the ideals of early 911's than the 911 itself. And the true winner in terms of weight and performance with no frills is the Elise.

Personally, since I want performance and real world usability, I'm waiting for the c63, GT-R, CTS-V, and M3 sedan before I make my decision. As much as I love the concept of GT-R, unless the back seats meet the seal of approval of the kids (at least e92 sized not 911 sized) and the car can hold 2 sets of golf clubs, then that one may have to fall off the list.

[TheAcAvenger]

Mmmm, GTR.

I think we've actually had this conversation on the Cayman S before, sdiver. I completely agree with you. I just cant afford to have cars my legs wont fit in.

[voltron1011]

Originally Posted by herbz

no. steering feel is not "subjective" by any means. steering feel has nothing to do with magazine editors' "opinions". its a fact, much like 1/4 mile times, brake distances, and road grip. steering feel is the reason the M3 (and all BMW's for that matter) have dominated the luxury sport segment. and it's also the reason why infiniti and lexus and MB have all had to play second fiddle to BMW for years.

go drive an e30 and even an e46 feels numb. in turn, an e90 feels numb compared to an e46. the new m3 is no longer a dedicated track machine believe it or not. you have to configure the computer and memorize all these buttons to be able to get the best performance out of it. whereas any old M3 had none of these crazy electronic settings and drove great right out of the box. the same way for everyone.

and PS the only thing really subjective about cars is looks / interior.

I'm always curious about quotes like this above... I've got a friend who owns an E36 M3 (3.2) and his steering feels overboosted compared to my E90. I let my friend, in turn, drive my car and he was pretty impressed on how tight and direct the steering felt.
I'm not saying that my E90 is better than the E36 or that it can out handle it. Since my buddies car is over 10years old, his particular E36 might have some steering related issues...