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      08-08-2020, 03:16 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
Is the iNext being built on an ICE platform? I still think BMW should invest in a BEV platform. It seems like the ICE platforms will only compromise many aspects of an EV, even if it is cheaper for BMW to produce.

Statement from BMW i boss Robert Irlinger from AMS 18.3.2020 (with Google translation):

"The vehicle concept of the iNext is a very long leap". There is "not the same vehicle again". Nevertheless, the iNext is "no architecture" or not the first car based on a new kit. Rather, it is designed in such a way that "all construction kits that we will also use in the large architectures get their first use in the iNext. And it is a pure electric car, there will be no combustion engine version. That sounds a bit like the beginning of a scalable e-car kit that shouldn't be called that yet."

Also more info in Suddeutsche zeitung 20.3.2020:

"The further development of FAAR and CLAR creates a common denominator for combustion engines, hybrids and e-vehicles - allegedly without compromising on function and production, but thanks to the scalable floor pan with more installation space for tank and / or batteries. The board of directors found the purely electric and correspondingly more radical ECAR matrix, which was originally intended to usher in the paradigm shift to battery drives in 2024, to be too expensive and initially put it on hold until 2030."

Last edited by jollyjumper; 08-08-2020 at 03:25 AM..
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      08-08-2020, 07:50 AM   #46
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it's nicer than we all are expecting I guess.
Speak for yourself.
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      08-08-2020, 08:06 AM   #47
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Coming along nicely.
Disguise slowly being peeled away.
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      08-08-2020, 08:09 AM   #48
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Seems like poor corporate leadership to direct a new controversial design language at the same time as a radically different powertrain. Many whom would have accepted the powertrain may not accept the styling, and vice versa.
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      08-08-2020, 11:37 AM   #49
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Yes, CLAR. BMW does not yet have a scaleable dedicated electric platform. They have the i3's platform, but unfortunately it cannot scale and will not be reused.



Indeed. BMW is the perhaps the only major manufacturer in the EV game who has not said a word about a dedicated electric vehicle matrix. Ford, GM, VW, Mercedes, Hyundai Motor Group, Renault-Nissan, Stellantis (by way of PSA), and even Toyota and Honda now have something in the pipeline. Products are arriving starting this year. BMW is still, it would appear, betting on being able to compete until at least the middle of the decade using only their existing CLAR and FAAR toolkits.
This will be the drawback for me. I would have bought the iX3, if it had been available when I replaced my 330e in Jan, but it wasn't; so I went with a 2020 530e. In two or three years, when I replace that ICE-platform PHEV, it will most likely be with an EV-only platform, rather than one of BMW's multi-purpose platforms. The only thing that could change that expectation is the BMW having a significantly lower cost--highly unlikely, IMO. The CLAR and FAAR toolkits will be very long in the tooth by mid-decade compared to the true EV's from everyone else starting in 2022. Here's hoping that the market will not have moved away from ICE platforms sooner than BMW can make up for it's ICE/PHEV/EV combined platform strategy.
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      08-08-2020, 12:54 PM   #50
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Why all BMW electric cars needs to be ugly???

Same as the I3 this thing is also so "different".
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      08-08-2020, 11:51 PM   #51
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I hope they are built on a "normal" looking chassis and not made as if they were out of the 2050 hot wheel catalog
I don't think you'll get your wish. Current renders based on spy shots.
God I hope not

Bland and totally generic
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      08-09-2020, 10:57 AM   #52
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So if planned production is 2021 July when will people be able to place orders on these cars?

My sister is definitely interested in an EV SAV/SUV car but the Ix3 won't cut it for her due to what price they want for a car that will go a maximum of 300 km (wintertime) and only RWD.

They seem to be adding a lot of production starts as of 2021 but still you can't place orders on many of the planned cars for 2021.

Wonder if its the Covid effect is causing delays now on the ordering side of stuff.
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      08-09-2020, 11:47 AM   #53
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So if planned production is 2021 July when will people be able to place orders on these cars?

My sister is definitely interested in an EV SAV/SUV car but the Ix3 won't cut it for her due to what price they want for a car that will go a maximum of 300 km (wintertime) and only RWD.

They seem to be adding a lot of production starts as of 2021 but still you can't place orders on many of the planned cars for 2021.

Wonder if its the Covid effect is causing delays now on the ordering side of stuff.
This car will definitely be much more expensive than the iX3. Think the equivalent X5 price + $10K for the electric drivetrain. If your sister has a budget, Tesla Model Y or Hyundai Kona Electric will be a much better choice.
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      08-09-2020, 12:03 PM   #54
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This car will definitely be much more expensive than the iX3. Think the equivalent X5 price + $10K for the electric drivetrain. If your sister has a budget, Tesla Model Y or Hyundai Kona Electric will be a much better choice.
I know i have told her also about the Model Y and X but she refuses to leave BMW as a brand so...and the IX3 wont cut it for her.

So she is gonna go from the G series 330i to an EV suv cause she had the X5 hybrid but it got stolen from her driveway and the insurance company had the 330i to offer. So long story short she doesn't want an estate car and wants to go back to SUV and EV but refuses the X or Y Tesla, Also informed her about the other options out there but no it is BMW or nothing for whatever reasons she has for that.
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      08-09-2020, 12:23 PM   #55
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Looks buck tooth

It does not look buck toothed, it is buck toothed.
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      08-09-2020, 06:08 PM   #56
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This car will definitely be much more expensive than the iX3. Think the equivalent X5 price + $10K for the electric drivetrain.
nah, think X5 M50i starting msrp for the base model and add 10K for the long range model.

no way BMW can deliver a comparably priced BEV SUV with the same range as model X. their architecture, battery chemistry, BMS, motor tech, bev assembly line..etc are either behind what tesla can currently do or more expensive in cost.

if it's got the same range, price will be $10k more. if it's the same price, range will be ~100 miles less. add "luxury brand badge" and "premium interior materials" to make up the difference and convince buyers.

Honestly outlook isn't great for this car, expect sales numbers to be somewhere between the Ipace and etron.
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      08-09-2020, 11:52 PM   #57
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I know i have told her also about the Model Y and X but she refuses to leave BMW as a brand so...and the IX3 wont cut it for her.

So she is gonna go from the G series 330i to an EV suv cause she had the X5 hybrid but it got stolen from her driveway and the insurance company had the 330i to offer. So long story short she doesn't want an estate car and wants to go back to SUV and EV but refuses the X or Y Tesla, Also informed her about the other options out there but no it is BMW or nothing for whatever reasons she has for that.
Yeah, I know how it is. Five years ago I thought I would die with a BMW in my driveway.

One test drive is all it takes.
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      08-10-2020, 07:45 AM   #58
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Because batteries are where the raw material cost is, so you want that acceptable range with least amount of battery sitting under your feet. At any rate, drivetrain efficiency is definitely a major source of EV R&D at the moment, along with battery tech obviously.
All relevant to the manufacturer as the strive for lowering their material and overall cost. Like figuring out how to build a car with adhesives instead of welding it helps the manufacturers for various reasons, and maybe the overall product but not sure any buyer cares about the details or the manufacturer even tries to sell it to anyone but the hardcore enthusiast.


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Sure. Meanwhile every manufacturer has a 2.0L turbocharged motor now (contrast that with just a decade ago), and most consumers won't wax on about why they think the one in their car is (or isn't) better than the one in yours. The industry has already been commoditized - its just that you are enough of an enthusiast that you can still spot the differences. Furthermore the fascination with engines, perhaps including the mythos of German Engineering and such, still gets you going. Yet, most people today are not choosing a BMW because they are on about the engineering - they are buying the brand and the brand experience.

I'm not disagreeing with your hypothesis. For car guys like us, something gets lost. I don't think it's got nearly the same impact for the average consumer. The end result is that while the game changes, the game also stays the same - the marketing song and dance to groom customers, the creation of value via new tech, the product development process all continues to be what it is. Enthusiasts might have less of real substance to argue about in forums like this one, but target customers are still going to be swayed or not swayed based on what ticks the boxes and tickles their fancy. Sure, there are objective features that you and I may care about, but it's an emotional decision at its core and it's going to continue to be. It's why some car guy might argue the superiority of BMW's B48 engine with his wife until he's blue in the face, but she's still going to pick the Lexus for her reasons (probably involving being subconsciously woo'd by some racy Facebook ad or some such).
As a Cadillac and BMW owner, drive any powertrain GM makes and compare it to the similar BMW engine and I think a lot of people notice. They may not understand why but the GM 2.0T is coarse and far less pleasant. The XT4 is a FWD platform, Lincoln's are the same, if people really don't care not sure why every luxury car builder doesn't start with a FWD chassis which is better for packaging and costs. Then either the transmission GM's uses or programs if purchased also isn't close to being equal. I bought the Cadillac because the other features, handling and price, reliability. I think the engine/transmission for the U.S. and most Japanese cars doesn't meet the Europeans but I think highly unlikely I will say the same on the electric car purchase. I am somewhat interested in the CT4V as it has good hp/torque/acceleration/handling but the reviews on the power delivery through the 2.7 4 cylinder and hunting 10 speed sounds pretty bad. I am leaning towards spending the extra for the 340 (someone must care about powertrains to buy the 340).

You are correct, many don't care about any of these things which is my point, luxury manufacturers need you get you to buy into the Sales/Marketing as the substance gets closer and closer but BMW tries to sell at a premium. Some part of the buyers leave as the substance can be differentiated.
Anyone most interested in best value or reliability likely doesn't have BMW anywhere near the top (earned or not). Anyone that does care about handling/powertrains and performance currently at least appreciates BMW and puts them on the list to consider of like priced brands.

For the true "badge buyer", they don't need to know anything about the substance as it is mostly about the Sales/Marketing and the best hope for some manufacturers is these buyers never get educated or care about what is in the car.
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      08-10-2020, 08:55 AM   #59
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I don't think you'll get your wish. Current renders based on spy shots.
Wouldn't this get terribly close to the iX3 in terms of size, design etc. ?
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      08-10-2020, 08:57 AM   #60
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I don't think you'll get your wish. Current renders based on spy shots.
Wouldn't this get terribly close to the iX3 in terms of size, design etc. ?
I believe the iNext is more like the X5 in terms of size and likely price as well. Not to mention this will be offered globally and with AWD unlike the iX3. However it will likely be brought out much later, as the iX3 is first, then the i4 which is aimed for the first half of 2022 (this was the goal before corona at least) and then the iNext, so it may be a while.
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      08-10-2020, 09:03 AM   #61
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Not sure any buyer cares about the details or the manufacturer even tries to sell it to anyone but the hardcore enthusiast.
It will also show up on the spec sheet since a smaller battery can obviously be charged faster than a larger one (charging tech being equal - another area commanding a large portion of battery vehicle R&D). That's going to become an even bigger factor as charging times approach "reasonable" - sub-15 minutes for a full-ish charge.

For the enthusiast, it shows up in a lower vehicle weight. Sure, in the current state of evolution, electric vehicles aren't light to begin with, but as time goes on we are going to see weight-optimized electric cars for enthusiasts and efficiency will be an important part of that.

And again, like I say, everything in the drivetrain has already become very commoditized. Everyone is dipping into the same supplier pool for electronics, transmission, fuel systems, turbochargers, etc., and while engine block and heads (and a few other parts) are still made in house, the results are becoming less and less differentiated. So, the lack of competitive advantage in this area you cite isn't new - it has been slowly occurring over the past few decades as increasing regulatory concerns mount and weed out the solutions that aren't cost-competitive. By and large, we have already entered a period of ICE development dormancy, and the automakers are resting on what they've established as brand values over their history. The lion's share of R&D is now going into electric vehicle development.

Quote:
You are correct, many don't care about any of these things which is my point, luxury manufacturers need you get you to buy into the Sales/Marketing as the substance gets closer and closer but BMW tries to sell at a premium. Some part of the buyers leave as the substance can be differentiated.
If BMW and Cadillac swapped 2.0T powertrains, you would apparently head straight to a Cadillac dealership, but I think you might be surprised by how few people you'd find following close behind.

Now, give Cadillac an electric drivetrain with a 350 miles of range and sub-15 minute to-80% charge times, and let's see if that gets attention. Of course BMW is gunning for the same thing, but GM is ahead if what we have heard about their new platform is true. Will this be enough to put in the dent in the market share? Maybe not soon. But if they are able to establish and retain at least some of that advantage as EV sales start to become significant late in the decade? We'll see.

At any rate, to me there is potential for a lot more of substance to sell on than you have used to calculate your current position on the matter. I've tried to provide some factors to think about. We'll know in a few years as EV sales reach a significant enough volume to start to play a role in the market position of traditional automakers relative to one another. In my estimation, worst case is that today's already staid status quo is essentially maintained. Best case, some of the potential areas for gaining an advantage become realized, and we have a far more interesting contest to watch.
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      08-10-2020, 09:40 AM   #62
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It will also show up on the spec sheet since a smaller battery can obviously be charged faster than a larger one (charging tech being equal - another area commanding a large portion of battery vehicle R&D). That's going to become an even bigger factor as charging times approach "reasonable" - sub-15 minutes for a full-ish charge.

For the enthusiast it shows up in a lower vehicle weight. Sure, in the current state of evolution, electric vehicles aren't light to begin with, but as time goes on we are going to see weight-optimized electric cars for enthusiasts and efficiency will be an important part of that.

And again, like I say, everything in the drivetrain has already become very commoditized. Everyone is dipping into the same supplier pool for electronics, transmission, fuel systems, turbochargers, etc., and while engine block and heads (and a few other parts) are still made in house, the results are becoming less and less differentiated. So, the lack of competitive advantage in this area you cite isn't new - it has been slowly occurring over the past few decades as increasing regulatory concerns mount and weed out the solutions that aren't cost-competitive. By and large, we have already entered a period of ICE development dormancy, and the automakers are resting on what they've established as brand values over their history. The lion's share of R&D is now going into electric vehicle development.



If BMW and Cadillac swapped 2.0T powertrains, you would apparently head straight to a Cadillac dealership, but I think you might be surprised by how few people you'd find following close behind.

Now, give Cadillac an electric drivetrain with a 350 miles of range and sub-15 minute to-80% charge times, and let's see if that gets attention. Of course BMW is gunning for the same thing, but GM is ahead if what we have heard about their new platform is true. Will this be enough to put in the dent in the market share? Maybe not soon. But if they are able to establish and retain at least some of that advantage as EV sales start to become significant late in the decade? We'll see.

At any rate, to me there is potential for a lot more of substance to sell on than you have used to calculate your current position on the matter. I've tried to provide some factors to think about. We'll know in a few years as EV sales reach a significant enough volume to start to play a role in the market position of traditional automakers relative to one another. In my estimation, worst case is that today's already staid status quo is essentially maintained. Best case, some of the potential areas for gaining an advantage become realized, and we have a far more interesting contest to watch.
From the beginning I said the differentiation between competing models is becoming smaller and smaller. I didn't say the Cadillac powertrain is its only problem with them but if everyone has the exact same power train as BMW (or close enough buyers can't tell) it makes it a tougher sale to buy a BMW at the higher market price.

I think smaller manufacturers like BMW are far less likely to come out on top of the electric car compared to the larger companies as the amount of money they have to spend is smaller and the parts they produce and spread over all models doesn't have the advantages of the larger manufacturers. They also have the issue of trying to sell sport and luxury and the close to the highest prices in the market (I doubt even close to lowest cost) and when looking at it objectively buyers can't find as many differences as they did in the past. I think medium to long term they will struggle with both electric and autonomy as both require huge R&D budgets.

Tesla is a unique situation where they were able to spend billions for many years and stockholders bought into the program where profits weren't required. They didn't have to worry about being profitable in the 98% of the market, were able to put all resources towards their end goal of electric/autonomy and the 2%. Time will tell if this will work out or if the others beat them on the things Tesla likely don't currently do as well on, like economies of scale, distribution, service.
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      08-10-2020, 09:57 AM   #63
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From the beginning I said the differentiation between competing models is becoming smaller and smaller. I didn't say the Cadillac powertrain is its only problem with them but if everyone has the exact same power train as BMW (or close enough buyers can't tell) it makes it a tougher sale to buy a BMW at the higher market price.
Right. What you didn't mention, but what I think is key fact coming out of our discussion is that that was already happening with ICE drivetrains. Another thing we've established is that there are properties of the EV drivetrain (such as efficiency - something you didn't consider particularly important) that still do have the potential to provide real differentiation, at least in the near term where establishing a position in the race is perhaps most crucial, among the electric vehicles coming to market from the various players.

I respect your opinion, and you have reasonable points. There's enough nuance and strategic positioning in this competition to hold my interest. I'm not sure I'm rooting for any specific entity (although I don't want to see BMW left behind), but I do think there are some power players establishing themselves as we speak, and I think there are plenty of surprises coming this decade (yes, I've got my eye on you, Hyundai ).
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      08-10-2020, 12:56 PM   #64
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This car will definitely be much more expensive than the iX3. Think the equivalent X5 price + $10K for the electric drivetrain.
Wait- Isn't the iNext X3 sized? Are we really to expect X3 sized EV that is $10k MORE expensive than an X5!?!? OMG!
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      08-10-2020, 01:41 PM   #65
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Wait- Isn't the iNext X3 sized? Are we really to expect X3 sized EV that is $10k MORE expensive than an X5!?!? OMG!
I don't know about the exact dimensions but from what I can see the market positioning will definitely be above X3.
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      08-10-2020, 02:55 PM   #66
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Quote:
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Wait- Isn't the iNext X3 sized? Are we really to expect X3 sized EV that is $10k MORE expensive than an X5!?!? OMG!
I don't know about the exact dimensions but from what I can see the market positioning will definitely be above X3.
In my mind "$10k above an X5" alone implies a "market position" above an X3. I'm speaking to it's positioning in the BMW lineup in regards it's physical size. While it's difficult to state confidently, the iNext appears to be closer to the size of an X3/X4 than an X5/X6.

An iNext priced $10k above an X5/X6 would be challenged to justify itself if it were the same size as an X5/X6. It seems hard to envision an X3/X4 sized product commanding that kind of money without the Spirit of Ecstasy on the hood.
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