[epiphone3]

Formula one is moving toward these "seamless shift" gearboxes that operate in way where, say, you are in second gear, third gear will be preselected. This ZSG sounds like one of those.

Anyone know for sure if the stick will be available when the M3 comes out? My old man is on the waiting list for an M3 and my guess is that he would wait until a stick is available.

[fredtoo]

Fleet,

Check out this thread if you have some time.

http://www.maseratilife.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=1127

It kind of makes me think twice about the paddle. Sure, it has boy racer written all over it, cool as all get out. But.........

BTW - The Maserati trans is a manual trans with a convetional clutch. The clutch is computer controlled, so there is no clutch pedal.

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by fredtoo

Fleet,

Check out this thread if you have some time.

http://www.maseratilife.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=1127

It kind of makes me think twice about the paddle. Sure, it has boy racer written all over it, cool as all get out. But.........

BTW - The Maserati trans is a manual trans with a convetional clutch. The clutch is computer controlled, so there is no clutch pedal.

The Maserati system is closer to the old SMG, but as I have said, I know quite a few that have them, and even with many SMG launches none have had early clutch replacements.

Remember this new system works quite differently.

Also, doesnt the USA 4year maintenance plan over the clutch ? Our 5 year plan replaces worn clutches free

[noflash]

Originally Posted by ALPINE6SPD

Ok I prefer a car with a third pedal for the clutch that I can manually operate. Is that better. BTW I like you wheels on your 325i.

I hope I didn't sound snooty.

I love the third petal over an Auto any day.

But, I can fantasize over an actual manual with lightning-fast, smooth, footless, perfect rev-matching shifting though paddles on the steering wheel. It would totally solve my inability to heel-toe shift with my size 14s.

And when I am totally bushed and have to drive, I can slip it into auto.

Give it a thought -- if it works, it would be the best of both worlds -- not like the "Manual" feature of the current Automatics.

Oh, and thanks for the wheel compliment! I dig 'em too.

[EnI]

Been busy, busy, busy ...

But ...

BMW will use 7-speed DCT from Getrag & ZF - depanding on engine torque output.

Getrag's DCT436 & ZF's 7DCT50 are two of them ...

[Bimmerista]

I think Getrag are the outfit who make the DSG for the Audis ?

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by Bimmerista

I think Getrag are the outfit who make the DSG for the Audis ?

I believ Audi and VW make the DSG themsellves

Getrag makes some BMW and some Porsche gearboxes
Getrag makes the E90 6 Cylinder Manual Gearboxes , but interestingly ZF makes the 335i Manual and Auto box

[JamieA]

Our Internal Audit Manager has a GTI DSG. We are scheduled to swap keys when I get back from vacation... I am looking forward to playing with a DSG to see if I like it better than a manual.

As VW designed the DSG for the VW/Audi group, I would expect that BMW will add their twist to the formula to make it even better.

The only reservation I have at this time, is call me old fashioned, but I like the H pattern of the gears, nothing like rowing the stick... somehow the tiptronic style of the DSG seems less satisfying. This is just my opinion, I am not looking to start the whole manual/auto debate again.

[Bimmerista]

Thanks for the info - and yes, I love the manual as well - but let's not start another manual vs auto debate

[EnI]

Originally Posted by Bimmerista

I think Getrag are the outfit who make the DSG for the Audis ?

Right now BorgWarner's DualTronic (tm) technology.
Will shift to Getrag for larger engines.

[txusa03]

Is this going to increase the cost of the car now that you have two (dual) clutches? What are they going to come up with next, triple clutches?

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by txusa03

Is this going to increase the cost of the car now that you have two (dual) clutches? What are they going to come up with next, triple clutches?

It will be a cost option

Why would you need 3 when 2 can give you a virtual seemless shift ?

[goldminer]

Originally Posted by txusa03

Is this going to increase the cost of the car now that you have two (dual) clutches? What are they going to come up with next, triple clutches?

There is no point to triple cltches. There is, however, a point to dual clutches. This is not a multi-plate clutch. It is 2 independent clutches.

No details are officially available yet on the BMW tranny but in the porsche PDK and Audi DSG transmissions there are two separate lay shafts, one with 1st, 3rd and 5th and the other with 2nd, 4th and 6th on it. There are also 2 separate coaxial clutches on the input shaft each driving a different lay shaft.

When you are at a stop both 1st and 2nd gears are engaged because of the twin lay shafts. When you pull away only one of the clutches will be let out to get the car going in 1st. A shift to 2nd does not actually involve a shift at all. The odd-numbered clutch disengages and the even-numbered one engages. This is very smooth and very fast. The transmission shifts to 3rd gear while the car is still accelerating in 2nd. This can be a leasurely and unrushed shift resulting in little wear on the synchros. The car then engages 3rd gear simply by switching clutches back to the odd numbered one.

The only thing I wonder about is the life of the thrust plates and thrust bearings. While running, these cars always have at least one clutch disengaged. How long can a thrust bearing last under these conditions? Or do they have a different mechanism?

[stressdoc]

GregA, what is the timing on release? Any chance for the Sept SOP for the 335s?

[ahmpower]

Thanks guys for the info. I read in the latest issue of the German car magazine Auto Motor & Sport that the new sequential gearbox will be out in 2008! I hope it's not that long.. If it is, I will have to get the M3 with whatever sequential box it's got (SMG, dual clutch or not) if I have to beg borrow or steal, because I don't think I can wait that long for the cheaper E92 335i/330i to have the DCT/ZSG if I have to wait another 2 years!

[txusa03]

Thanks for the detail info, very interesting. I know very little about clutch or manual gear but I drive one (that's a scary thought).

[JamieA]

When I read about how it worked when VW released it, I remember thinking, why hadn't this been thought of/done before... surely it would be less costly to make, far simpler, more reliable and evidently much smoother than all those SMG style systems?

I am sure the engineers on this forum will disagree, (and I am genuinely interested in what people have to say on this matter) but to my simple method of seeing things, it is a very elegant concept.

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by JamieA

When I read about how it worked when VW released it, I remember thinking, why hadn't this been thought of/done before... surely it would be less costly to make, far simpler, more reliable and evidently much smoother than all those SMG style systems?

I am sure the engineers on this forum will disagree, (and I am genuinely interested in what people have to say on this matter) but to my simple method of seeing things, it is a very elegant concept.

Its actually a ver old idea. First patents were from the 1920's or 30's if I remember correctly.
But without todays modern computers and hydraulic systems they just couldnt get it to work properly.


But it is said its not as Sporty as the SMG, thats why both are being tested for the next M3

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by E90Fleet

Its actually a ver old idea. First patents were from the 1920's or 30's if I remember correctly.
But without todays modern computers and hydraulic systems they just couldnt get it to work properly.


But it is said its not as Sporty as the SMG, thats why both are being tested for the next M3

I think with all the technology they have these days, they could have offered the DSG with an H pattern... I know I sound like a dinosaur, but I like putting my hand on the stick and knowing subliminally what gear I am in, and the rhythm and flow of gear changing...

[fredtoo]

I would prefer something more motorcycle like.
push forward for upshifts, pull back for downshifts.
NO WAY to screw up and pull a "Money Shift" with something like that.
With a normal clutch pedal too

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by fredtoo

...
NO WAY to screw up and pull a "Money Shift" with something like that...

Good point.

[stressdoc]

You want to be able to go direct from say, 5th to 2nd gear. My guess is that ZSG should have a big enough brain to prevent money shifts.