New Ytest
Sign out
Bimmerpost
Login
BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  
Go Back   BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-06-2016, 08:34 AM   #111
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
16870
Rep
18,554
Posts

 
Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerslide View Post
And no one should be disappointed either. 918, LaFerrari, P1, NSX, i8 - the technology is already there to make hybrids have much higher performance than pure combustion engines- and without being heavier than current pure internal combustion powered performance cars - it is just a matter of time until that technology trickles down (pun intended) to the price point of where more "mainstream" performance cars are currently priced - like the F8x. Look at how positive of reviews the i8 has already received from a driving dynamics perspective without even being an M car (and yes - it weighs less than an M3/M4 too). It is inevitable that the price of performance-oriented hybrids will keep coming down. I believe a hybrid M4/M3 one or two generations out will be even more fun that the current model (which I still cannot get enough drives in)!!!
So I've discussed this before on the i8 forum. Here's the issue with the i8, 918, La Ferrari, etc. If you look at the practicality of the i8 architecture it just doesn't fit the "normal" sedan architecture that provides ample passenger space and luggage space. The i8 body is almost completely dedicated to its dual-type drivetrain. The i8 (and the others like it) basically have two seats and small trunks. The i8 has no real useable back seat (BMW actually offers fitted luggage for it) and 5 cubic feet of trunk space, all due to the real estate taken up by the drivetrain. None of that architecture will "trickle down" to real passenger cars.

So thinking you are going to get a 340i size car with 0-60 times of 4 seconds while achieving 55 MPG using the i8 drivetrain architecture, it's not going to happen. To get more room in the car the i8 drivetrain needs to be reconfigured and reduced in size, which means reduced performance and power to achieve the MPG targets. We already have cars that the dual-type hybrid drivetrain has been shrunk and de-powered to increase MPG and add passenger/luggage space. These cars are the Volt, the plug in Prius, the Camry/Accord/Fusion hybrids etc. Where the dual-type (electric and ICE) drivetrain has been repackaged, shrunk, and fitted all under the hood so the vehicle has useable 4/5 passenger space and real luggage capacity.
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Appreciate 2
      02-06-2016, 08:38 AM   #112
Powerslide
Colonel
United_States
1095
Rep
2,287
Posts

 
Drives: 2018 F80 ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago Illinois USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerslide View Post
And no one should be disappointed either. 918, LaFerrari, P1, NSX, i8 - the technology is already there to make hybrids have much higher performance than pure combustion engines- and without being heavier than current pure internal combustion powered performance cars - it is just a matter of time until that technology trickles down (pun intended) to the price point of where more "mainstream" performance cars are currently priced - like the F8x. Look at how positive of reviews the i8 has already received from a driving dynamics perspective without even being an M car (and yes - it weighs less than an M3/M4 too). It is inevitable that the price of performance-oriented hybrids will keep coming down. I believe a hybrid M4/M3 one or two generations out will be even more fun that the current model (which I still cannot get enough drives in)!!!
So I've discussed this before on the i8 forum. Here's the issue with the i8, 918, La Ferrari, etc. If you look at the practicality of the i8 architecture it just doesn't fit the "normal" sedan architecture that provides ample passenger space and luggage space. The i8 body is almost completely dedicated to its dual-type drivetrain. The i8 (and the others like it) basically have two seats and small trunks. The i8 has no real useable back seat (BMW actually offers fitted luggage for it) and 5 cubic feet of trunk space, all due to the size of the drivetrain. None of that architecture will "trickle down" to real passenger cars.

So thinking you are going to get a 340i size car with 0-60 times of 4 seconds and 55 MPG using the i8 drivetrain architecture, it's not going to happen. To get more room in the car the i8 drivetrain needs to be reconfigured and reduced in size, which means reduced performance and power to achieve the MPG targets. We already have cars that the dual-type hybrid drivetrain has been shrunk and de-powered to increase MPG and add passenger/luggage space. These cars are the Volt, the plug in Prius, the Camry/Accord/Fusion hybrids etc. Where the dual-type (electric and ICE) drivetrain has been repackaged, shrunk, and fitted all under the hood so the vehicle has useable 4/5 passenger space and real luggage capacity.
Yes - I see your point and I do not disagree with it.

However - the current i8 architecture and technology will be fairly outdated in the not-to-distant future - so with future hybrid tech - this all will fit into a sub-3500 lb family sedan priced roughly equivalent to the current M3/M4 (adjusting for inflation). Just a question of time...
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 08:47 AM   #113
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
16870
Rep
18,554
Posts

 
Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerslide View Post
Yes - I see your point and I do not disagree with it.

However - the current i8 architecture and technology will be fairly outdated in the not-to-distant future - so with future hybrid tech - this all will fit into a sub-3500 lb family sedan priced roughly equivalent to the current M3/M4 (adjusting for inflation). Just a question of time...
That's my point. The i8 tech was outdated when it came out. I'm sure decades ago TRW (who actually patented the Prius-type of hybrid drivetrain in the early 1970's) and GM and others started out with architecture with the ICE in the front (or rear) and the electric in the rear (or front) and realized that the car would have no passenger/luggage space. BMW decided with the i8 they'd make a car that had excellent performance and the sacrifice of usability. When you look at the i8's performance, it doesn't achieve its great acceleration AND get 50 MPG. That said it does give good performance at around 35 PMG, much better performance than a 35 MPG car, but nowhere near the 55 MPG targets that are 9 years away.
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 02-06-2016 at 11:59 AM..
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 09:02 AM   #114
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

 
Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Ludwig View Post
You mean a supercharger?
A turbocharger is already a type of supercharger, so indeed adding electric assist doesn't change this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger

Along the lines of the naming convention used in the above article, perhaps you'd prefer to name it electro-turbo-supercharger, or maybe just eturbocharger for short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Likely the G90 (F90?) M5.
I believe it's pretty much confirmed that the next M5 will continue to use the S63
while adding optional AWD (standard feature in the US). See the November 2015 update near the end of this post:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=901686

Of course that doesn't necessarily completely rule out hybrid assist, but it seems unlikely at this point.
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 09:03 AM   #115
W///
Lieutenant General
W///'s Avatar
7433
Rep
12,291
Posts

 
Drives: F82GTS, E36/E92M3, Z4M
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SC

iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPe90M3 View Post
....pretty dumb comment. Who said I was a purist? I prefer petrol motors. Same reason I'd never buy a diesel M...
Who said an M HYBRID wouldn't have a petrol motor....?
__________________
Current:
16 F82 M4 GTS, Black Sapphire/Black, DCT
08 E92 M3, Sparkling Graphite/Bamboo Beige, 6MT
07 E85 Z4M Roadster, Alpine White/Red, 6MT
99 E36 M3, Techno Violet/Dove Grey, 6MT
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 09:27 AM   #116
cc3
Major
621
Rep
1,333
Posts

 
Drives: 1M, GT4, M2 M140i G40
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: .UK

iTrader: (0)

The future- electric and hybrids plus driverless cars!! How boring.
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 09:32 AM   #117
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

 
Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
An M550d and and an M550e can co-exist. An M550e can be offered in markets like North America whereas the M550d can't.
So perhaps the very first Power eDrive M model will fall under the M performance brand. Clearly an M550e will use an I6 just as the M550d does. This could, in short order, push the 550i out of the lineup, leaving the V8 (which can also be paired to eDrive in a future generation) just for the proper M car.
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 10:45 AM   #118
Hops128i
Captain
Hops128i's Avatar
71
Rep
675
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 128i, manual, sport pkg
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland

iTrader: (0)

Dirk Hacker is really overthinking this. I don't think they need to look to electrification, they essentially have hybrid M cars already as they burn both gas and rubber.
__________________
2010 128i manual, sport package, performance exhaust, Vorshlag camber plates, Bilstein B6 struts/shocks, 245/40/17 ZIII square on et 40 with rolled rear fenders.
Appreciate 1
clbmw631.00
      02-06-2016, 11:16 AM   #119
Em/1
Lieutenant
Em/1's Avatar
United_States
83
Rep
562
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 1M VO
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 VW GTI SE  [0.00]
2020 Tesla M3P  [0.00]
2011 BMW 1M  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasi_M3 View Post
2.2L or 2.3L electric turbo and battery would be sweet...the problem is the weight of the battery. We need BMW to build the car with more CFRP ala i8 and we should be good. The problem with the sound will still exist though , but I'm accepting the fact that cars from now on won't sound as good as before.
My wife's Macan S (turbo V6) sounds pretty damn good as do a number of modded 1M's, so I think can be done if they don't get lazy and just pipe it in.
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 11:22 AM   #120
Em/1
Lieutenant
Em/1's Avatar
United_States
83
Rep
562
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 1M VO
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 VW GTI SE  [0.00]
2020 Tesla M3P  [0.00]
2011 BMW 1M  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
With a CAFE target of 55 miles per gallon, Hybrids are the future.
There are two reasons that that number was put into the future and one of them is so that it could be changed!
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 11:47 AM   #121
PopsnBurbles
Captain
PopsnBurbles's Avatar
United_States
192
Rep
893
Posts

 
Drives: 135is :) 192/586
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: LA, CA

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
Isn't the "I" division for this kind of stuff?
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 01:41 PM   #122
MParallel
Mr. OEM
MParallel's Avatar
Netherlands
542
Rep
796
Posts

 
Drives: '98 E36 M3 AW/Black 1 of 12
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands

iTrader: (0)

If it'll be anything like Porsche 918, La Ferrari, P1, it should be quite ok.
__________________

'1998 BMW M3 3.2 Cabrio • Alpinweiß III auf Schwarz • Deutschland-ausführung • 1 von 12 • SMG • SRA • PDC • AUC • GSM • HK • UURS • IHKA • FGR • MFL •

Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 01:49 PM   #123
ORIGIN M.
Banned
3160
Rep
9,134
Posts

 
Drives: ///M
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Northern Hemisphere

iTrader: (0)

M2 CSL
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 01:55 PM   #124
MightyMouseTech
Major General
MightyMouseTech's Avatar
4335
Rep
6,196
Posts

 
Drives: 13 135i 6MT LeMans Blue MSport
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ottawa, Canada

iTrader: (0)

This is like building a mechanical watch, and putting a digital face on it.
Appreciate 1
      02-06-2016, 02:01 PM   #125
shivaswrath
Brigadier General
shivaswrath's Avatar
United_States
649
Rep
4,323
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 335i
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lost in NJ

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerslide View Post
Yes - I see your point and I do not disagree with it.

However - the current i8 architecture and technology will be fairly outdated in the not-to-distant future - so with future hybrid tech - this all will fit into a sub-3500 lb family sedan priced roughly equivalent to the current M3/M4 (adjusting for inflation). Just a question of time...
That's my point. The i8 tech was outdated when it came out. I'm sure decades ago TRW (who actually patented the Prius-type of hybrid drivetrain in the early 1970's) and GM and others started out with architecture with the ICE in the front (or rear) and the electric in the rear (or front) and realized that the car would have no passenger/luggage space. BMW decided with the i8 they'd make a car that had excellent performance and the sacrifice of usability. When you look at the i8's performance, it doesn't achieve its great acceleration AND get 50 MPG. That said it does give good performance at around 35 PMG, much better performance than a 35 MPG car, but nowhere near the 55 MPG targets that are 9 years away.
What they'll probably do, given how old the tech is that BMW is using today, is throw on some brake regeneration, a small lithium pack to balance the extra weight of the drivetrain components snuggled between the engine/DCT, strip down the size of the engine even further (sigh), and integrate some other voodoo (i.e. AWD and water injection?) to sell it to us as a safer, faster, similar weight performance sedan as the F8x.

It may work...or it could be a complete fucking mess. Have you seen how difficult it is to open the hood in an i8?
__________________
CURRENT: 2017 RS3 (miss you guys)
SOLD: 2012 335i Mineral Gray

M Performance Exhaust/Brakes/Suspension/LSD|Bav Stage 1/AMP||ER CP/IC/DP/OC | Dinan CAI/N55 PWG BIG TURBO|BMWF30.com
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 04:30 PM   #126
MKSixer
Lieutenant General
MKSixer's Avatar
34172
Rep
11,637
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 BMW i8, E63 M6, 328d
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Southeast United States

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2016 M4 GTS (Allotted)  [0.00]
2013 BMW 328d  [0.00]
2007 BMW M6  [10.00]
2015 BMW i8  [10.00]
Here's the answer:

AWD 3L and 4L 6 Cyl turbo engines with electric assist built into the engines powering the rear wheels through a DCT transmission combined with 2 electric motors powering the front with 28kW capacity.

Total HP deployed in the 3L combination, up to 550.
Total HP deployed in the 4L combination, 650+.

I'll definitely buy a next gen ///M equipped like this.
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 06:56 PM   #127
Falafel Combo
Banned
United_States
3767
Rep
6,673
Posts

 
Drives: X5 xDrive50i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: New England

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So I've discussed this before on the i8 forum. Here's the issue with the i8, 918, La Ferrari, etc. If you look at the practicality of the i8 architecture it just doesn't fit the "normal" sedan architecture that provides ample passenger space and luggage space. The i8 body is almost completely dedicated to its dual-type drivetrain. The i8 (and the others like it) basically have two seats and small trunks. The i8 has no real useable back seat (BMW actually offers fitted luggage for it) and 5 cubic feet of trunk space, all due to the real estate taken up by the drivetrain. None of that architecture will "trickle down" to real passenger cars.

So thinking you are going to get a 340i size car with 0-60 times of 4 seconds while achieving 55 MPG using the i8 drivetrain architecture, it's not going to happen. To get more room in the car the i8 drivetrain needs to be reconfigured and reduced in size, which means reduced performance and power to achieve the MPG targets. We already have cars that the dual-type hybrid drivetrain has been shrunk and de-powered to increase MPG and add passenger/luggage space. These cars are the Volt, the plug in Prius, the Camry/Accord/Fusion hybrids etc. Where the dual-type (electric and ICE) drivetrain has been repackaged, shrunk, and fitted all under the hood so the vehicle has useable 4/5 passenger space and real luggage capacity.
Remember when a 64 MB storage drive was as big as my head. Yeah, that was awesome.

That's where the hybrid technology is right now. Give it 10 years. You'll be carrying a backup battery for your 4 sec 55mpg 340i sedan in your back pocket.
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 07:25 PM   #128
08TUNDRA
Lieutenant
08TUNDRA's Avatar
United_States
123
Rep
445
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 e92 335i
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: San Diego CA

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wjjkoevoets View Post
I don't want to drive an electric car, not at present at least.

I wouldn't mind seeing BMW experimenting with an inline 6 3.0l turbo'd hybrid though...
They did that in the active hybrid 5 wasn't very great.
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2016, 08:20 PM   #129
wjjkoevoets
Bright Sky
wjjkoevoets's Avatar
Netherlands
1164
Rep
922
Posts

 
Drives: BMW M235i (8AT)
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Breda, NL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 BMW M235i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmikhael619 View Post
They did that in the active hybrid 5 wasn't very great.
Huh, really? It's been a while since I checked, but from what I recall it wasn't too bad, but there was a slight noticable delay when swithcing between power sources.
__________________
BMW ///M235i (EBII) - BM3 (+TCU) - Wagner DP - ER CP - ER TIC CP - CSF FMIC - GFB DV+ - Pure Inlet - K&N Drop-in AF - MPE

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2016, 03:05 AM   #130
clbmw
Major
631
Rep
1,482
Posts

 
Drives: 320d M135i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblack4083
I'm not sure how this can be news to anyone. Everyone knows that Formula 1 / Supercar technologies trickle down to regular road cars. With the Hybrid technology trickling down from Formula 1 to cars like the P1, 918, and LaFerrari; seeing it reach our high performance cars within the next 5-10 years is only inevitable.
You're right but I also think a lot of folk were and still are hoping somethings (like the S engines) will 'trickle up' to the i models
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2016, 07:01 AM   #131
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
16870
Rep
18,554
Posts

 
Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falafel Combo View Post
Remember when a 64 MB storage drive was as big as my head. Yeah, that was awesome.

That's where the hybrid technology is right now. Give it 10 years. You'll be carrying a backup battery for your 4 sec 55mpg 340i sedan in your back pocket.
There are laws of physics and chemistry to consider. Hybrid cars have been in production almost 20 years now and billions spent on battery technology development and none have come close to providing the range and refueling capability of a gasoline/diesel powered internal combustion engine vehicle. 10 more years of tech is not going to bring a backup wallet-sized battery for an automobile.

Data storage and energy storage are two completely different technologies with entirely different engineering principles applied to them. They don't scale the same.
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Appreciate 1
      02-07-2016, 07:41 AM   #132
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

 
Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

It is unlikely at this point that BMW will invest in a new six cylinder engine family with greater than 3L displacement. So, if there is going to be a 4L engine, it will almost certainly be a V8 (like Mercedes and Audi have).

Also BMW has stated in the past that they are targeting up to 200hp/L for their turbocharged engines. In fact, there was a dual motor + I4 eDrive concept from over a year ago that made a reported 670hp:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/895...em-gets-670bhp

If we eventually see something like this combined with the aforementioned I6, over 1000hp is theorectically possible in future evolutions of the technology. Naturally, this puts the long term need for the V8 in peril. It is a not a question of if, but of how rapidly this will play out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Here's the answer:

AWD 3L and 4L 6 Cyl turbo engines with electric assist built into the engines powering the rear wheels through a DCT transmission combined with 2 electric motors powering the front with 28kW capacity.

Total HP deployed in the 3L combination, up to 550.
Total HP deployed in the 4L combination, 650+.

I'll definitely buy a next gen ///M equipped like this.
Appreciate 2
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:30 PM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST