Border Fence Question - Legal

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by HerkHealer

No, 75% of the fence is definitely on my property based on the new survey. There are about 3 panels that are now on his side at the beginning of the fence line. The remaining is clearly on my side via the stakes.

I will probably just move it and be done with it.

If it's only 3 panels, just take the high road and do it. Just have 4 new posts put in an move the panels to the new posts.

This is not worth getting into a life-long pissing contest with our neighbor, regardless of their character.

Don't overthink this, just do it and avoid survey costs, legal fees, your own frustration, and unnecessary problems with your neighbor.

Good luck!

[HerkHealer]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

There could be an easement law or something to that effect since the fence has been there so long.

In New Hampshire it is 20 years. So I'm well prior to that.

I have a local surveyor coming this week to assist and assess me with this. As mentioned the ONE marker that his surveyor moved leads up to a small portion of my fence on his property. I'm willing to spend $500 to find out if that was legit or from what his surveyors told me was " a math interpretation".

Mistakes happen. Neighbors are born.

[HerkHealer]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

If it's only 3 panels, just take the high road and do it. Just have 4 new posts put in an move the panels to the new posts.

This is not worth getting into a life-long pissing contest with our neighbor, regardless of their character.

Don't overthink this, just do it and avoid survey costs, legal fees, your own frustration, and unnecessary problems with your neighbor.

Good luck!

Just want you to know that i REALLY appreciate your comment and advice.
But this literally happened yesterday out of the blue, so I am still in reaction mode I guess.

For insight, my lovely neighbor never even gave me a "heads up" that he was doing a survey. The way I found out was seeing 2 men in orange vests doing metal detector scans all over the place trying to find the original pins.

[catskillclimber]

"Adverse Possession

The mere passage of time, by itself, does not cause a fence line to be substituted for the actual property boundary. But, the manner in which the adjacent owners have used the property over time may cause the fence line to become fixed as the boundary with the legal effect of changing the boundary as described in the deed to the property. Under the legal doctrine of adverse possession title can be acquired to property that one doesn’t actually own via the usage of the property for a prescribed amount of time (e.g., 15 years in Kansas). The party attempting to acquire title via adverse possession must know that the property that they are using does not belong to them. In other words, the party asserting the doctrine knows that the existing fence line is not on the property boundary and uses the additional property between the true boundary and the fence line as their own, adverse to the true owner.

If the true boundary is not known, courts typically examine the intent of the party holding property beyond the true line (i.e., the party benefitting from the misplaced fence). If the property is occupied by mere mistake and with no intent to claim land that does not belong to the person, the occupation of the property will not be considered to be adverse. Alternatively, if the occupant takes possession of the property believing the land to be his or her own up to the mistaken line and claiming title to it, the possession will be considered adverse if the true owner knows of the possession and assertion of ownership and does nothing to prevent it for the statutory timeframe.

A boundary that changes via adverse possession is formalized by a “quiet title” action in court."

[F32Fleet]

OP. When you bought your home did you purchase a title policy with an ALTA 9 endorsement?

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by HerkHealer

Seven years ago, I put a 50 foot border fence between my (then) neighbor and my yard. Mainly due to his dog barking all the time. It worked. The dog could not see things to bark at and it stopped. I built the fence off property markers that had been in the ground since 1974.

Three years ago, they sold the house and I now have a new neighbor. He had his property surveyed last fall and they moved the stakes, in some places more than a foot toward my property. Now I have a portion of my fence on his side.

Yesterday he told me he's having a fence put in soon and wants me to move my fence. Is that legal ? I'm going to ask the town, but i'm pretty pissed about it.


A little background on these beauties I have for neighbors.
First it was just him, recently divorced, one kid. Then he met his new wife. Another divorcee who (supposedly) was abused by her husband and children. She has not seen any of her adult children and grandchildren for 15 years. He met her, moved her in and married her within 8 months of buying the house. In the Fall of 2020 he comes over and tells me he has disowned his own 18yr old son. Said the last 3 yrs of his marriage his ex and son were trying to get him to commit suicide. The final straw was his son asking him to put gas in his truck as he borrowed it for the whole day. What a guy.....

Just build a new fence, and have Mexico pay for it.


I'll see myself out now….

[3.0L]

OP, if I were in your shoes I'd pay the price for peace and spring for the survey. Otherwise, your beef will likely go on forever. Get the survey and put end to it.

[///d]

I'm curious if the OP had a survey done and what the outcome was?

Neighbors are just one reason I refuse to live in any urban setting. I'm on 2.5 acres, most around me is the same or bigger, I can't see any neighbors in the summer when the trees are full, and I still feel like everyone is too close and I want to move. Gimme a mile between houses and I'll be happy

[HerkHealer]

Originally Posted by ///d

I'm curious if the OP had a survey done and what the outcome was?

Neighbors are just one reason I refuse to live in any urban setting. I'm on 2.5 acres, most around me is the same or bigger, I can't see any neighbors in the summer when the trees are full, and I still feel like everyone is too close and I want to move. Gimme a mile between houses and I'll be happy

I worked it out with him. Let him attach to my fence. I'm giving him 2x more of my land in the "deal", but at this point I dont care.

As soon as I get my addition finished up and rates go back to something reasonable, i'm selling. The town I live has new homes built on minimum of 3 acres. My property is tight because im waterfront.

[e90335e36m3]

Originally Posted by catskillclimber

You erected a structure on another's property without doing the property due diligence (survey) in the first place. Your prior neighbors were ambivalent or ignorant of the intrusion and you now think that justifies your initial mistake.
The irony is you attempt to impinge the character of your new neighbors when in reality they did the correct thing utilizing a current survey and letting you know there is a dispute.
You made a mistake. Just own it.

This x100. Think if his neighbor's fence on the other side annexed a part of his property he'd say let bygones be bygones? I think not. It would be straight for the legal playbook. And if he ever had to sell the his property and a buyer backed out because of an inaccurate survey? Rules exist for a reason. Either work it out in good faith or do the right thing, inconvenient as it may be and move your fence. Certainly, don't create any illusions about entitlement or moral high ground, neither are there in this instance. I feel bad for the new neighbor in this case.

Glad he was able to work it out.

[Maestro]

First, what you are dealing with is GPS accuracy verses what was done 40 years ago. Back then the surveyors had to go to a known Benchmark in your area and then measure and calculate your plot lines from that known point of reference. The longer the distance from the reference point the more the error could be. Today, for intended purposes GPS is exact, but exact from what point of reference.

You may have an argument that based on the original survey lines and markers those were accurate at the time and have stood for 40 yrs and never challenges so they should stand today. Most states have a 21 yr squatters right law, which says if you can show you used the property for 21 yrs without anyone enforcing their ownership on the land it is yours from that point forward. Sometime this applies to inaccurate survey markers.

I am kind of curious how 3 of the 4 markers are correct, are all 4 in a straight line, or are they the 4 corners of the property. It kind of hard to think 3 of 4 of straight line is correct and one is out by a foot unless your property has some weird angle in it.

I replaced a fence on the back of my property where another neighbor lives. I did not do a survey, but found the original markers from when the property was surveyed. The back of the property is not straight it has couple of angles in it. I had the original survey, took couple of measurement and the markers appeared to be correct. It looks like the portions of the original fence was on the neighbors property and they never said anything. I ended up moving the fence a few inches onto my property to avoid the any issues, and told the neighbor what I was doing. I even consulted the township and they said no survey required and no permit as long as the height was not over 6ft. I am about 15 yrs in on my replacement fence and the neighbor does not plan to move so I am not expecting any issues.

With that said a neighbor of mine this summer was having a pool put in and for some reason they were required to have survey done. To their surprise a portion of the fence which has been there 25yrs by the previous owner was on another neighbors property. The property is perfectly square and only one corner is on the neighbors property. Once you look at, you can see the fence curves onto other property. It looks like the installer got lazy. Since the fence was there for 25 yrs and the neighbor did not complained or do anything about it there was not an issue, but the township had both neighbors sign a document when the permit was issue for the pool that both recognized that part of the land now belongs to the fence owner.

Not the make this longer, we just bought 7.5 acres, and we had a survey done prior to completing the sale since the original owners could not provide proof the land boundary. We spent $3K to have it done, the surveyors found 5 of the original concrete corner markers and they were almost exactly where the current survey put them using GPS. After the survey was done we walked the land the boundary lines and found one of the neighbors had been using about 30 feet of property, they had cleared brush and was dumping on the land. We knew when the neighbors build their home which was less then 21yrs ago so we knew they could not claim squatters rights. We send all the neighbors adjoining the property a certified letter stating we were buying the land and were exerting our ownership over the land where the current boundary markers were placed. We never heard from any of them. At this point the 21yr clock starts over again. BYW the original survey had done in 1969 so who ever did then was very accurate on the placement of the corner markers.

[unluky]

I think it depends on state/local laws. In my state we have some 7-10 year deal where if a fence has been there for XX amount of time - it becomes the line if it was never disputed. Many old properties (like my family farm) were sold off a huge chunk and sold "fence to fence" meaning the piece being sold was done by an existing fence.

My father got nice in his old age and let the new neighbors tear down a 50 year old fence that made their driveway drift in the winter. I am from the "fences make good neighbors" camp and urged him not to, but he did but left all the corner and main posts in as a line. As I feared - 10 years later these same people had it surveyed for their estate planning and wanted to argue the line. Luckily the posts saved us, but it just went to show how people can be douches.

The same farmer rents our farm and the one behind us and my father let him take the rear fence down to farm thru it, and I KNEW it was a mistake as we do not even know those people - it's owned by a city owner for profit. My father is gone now, but that fence will cause my sister and I a legal battle in the future - I guarantee it.

I would not take anything down until I exhaust every option. Once it is down - you are all done.

[Wolf 335]

Why is there a need for the neighbor to put up a fence when the fence is already in place from your property.

[///d]

Originally Posted by Wolf 335

Why is there a need for the neighbor to put up a fence when the fence is already in place from your property.

I was kind of wondering the same thing, but since the neighbor seems a little off I figure it was a spite thing.