New mystrious Ferrari.. V12 488 track car??

[AW335TT]

Not much info on the car yet, here are some pics. Rear fenders are definitely wider than a regular 488.

[M3ZING]

Originally Posted by AW335TT

Not much info on the car yet, here are some pics. Rear fenders are definitely wider than a regular 488.

One off special 458 with laf engine.

[3GFX]

+1

Its going to be a one off again. They're doing a lot of those lately.

Money rules....wish I had some.

[roastbeef]

488 specicale?

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by 3GFX

+1

Its going to be a one off again. They're doing a lot of those lately.

Money rules....wish I had some.

Ferrari are going back to their roots with their bespoke division. In the 60's, one offs were pretty standard for Ferrari via the different design houses, especially Pininfarina.

The difference now is that they have taken these designs internally, which makes sense money wise but also engineering wise.

Ferrari owners, especially the richer ones are always interested in one off vehicles, even if it means an investment of several millions of dollars upfront. I use investment here as these cars almost always appreciate in value being so rare...

So everybody wins here... Except if Ferrari increase their production too much because they would become less rare, then less desirable then less valuable...

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

So everybody wins here... Except if Ferrari increase their production too much because they would become less rare, then less desirable then less valuable...

That is exactly why the big ferrari boss that lead ferrari for almost 25 years left Ferrari... (forgot his name)
A big row with the FIAT CEO (Marchionne) who wants to expand the brand with more volume sales thus offering up the exclusivity of the brand (that was the point of the argument).

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

That is exactly why the big ferrari boss that lead ferrari for almost 25 years left Ferrari... (forgot his name)
A big row with the FIAT CEO (Marchionne) who wants to expand the brand with more volume sales thus offering up the exclusivity of the brand (that was the point of the argument).

The previous boss was Luca di Montemezolo... He led Ferrari for a long time indeed and helped save the brand in the 90's. However, he was too conservative and lacked vision for the future. The current boss Sergio Marchione has a different vision indeed, but I'm pretty sure he knows not to dilute the brand hence this bespoke division. I believe he wants to sell around 10K Ferrari per year (Anyway there is not much more capacity in Maranello).

But to put things in perspective, Ferrari has produced in their lifetime (from 1947 up to Q3/2016): 190,888 units. Porsche, just for 2015: 225,000. So basically Ferrari has produced in their entire lifetime LESS cars than Porsche in a year! I think Marchione is right about producing more Ferraris without diluting the brand. There are more and more Millionaires and billionaires in the world and increasing sales to meet the ever expanding demand will not dilute this brand...

In the end, don't trust the media headlines: a deeper analysis will provide more accurate answers.

[GuidoK]

ah yes di montezemolo...all those italian names look the same
If he was too conservative and lacked future vision.... I dont know...
I mean seeing a ferrari is a completely different experience than seeing a porsche.
I think its pretty much impossible to both produce more models and still keeping it exclusive. Dilute a brand is pretty much a non descriptive measurement.
I mean look at lamborghini. In the 80's or 90's you never saw a lambo. Now its not that uncommon anymore.
But it's true that ferrari gets more competition; Lamborghini has crancked up their production by a truely huge factor in the last 10-15 years (since the gallardo), and mclaren also has become a big competitor in this segment.
At the true top both koenigsegg and pagani have emerged (and bugatti).
And I think they lost in that segment. In the 80's and 90's ferrari was pretty well up into that top tier segment (I cant come up with cars positioned above the 288, f40 and f50, except for the mclaren F1 which was I think more a competitor to the f50, ok 106 produced compared to 349).
So I can somewhat get into the point di montezemolo was trying to defend. Ferrari had been very exclusive for over 50 years, and I think they lost terrain at the absolute top tier segment. Both in prestige and comparing models.
If thats a bad thing I dont know; I'm not in the position to buy a top tier car, if I buy a ferrari I can only buy a 2nd had base model.
But how I look at the brand has changed. Less exclusive (and maybe more affordable)

I think di montezemolo also was FIAT CEO for some time (so predecessor to marchionne), so that must have hurt, getting bumped by your successor....

[AW335TT]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

That is exactly why the big ferrari boss that lead ferrari for almost 25 years left Ferrari... (forgot his name)
A big row with the FIAT CEO (Marchionne) who wants to expand the brand with more volume sales thus offering up the exclusivity of the brand (that was the point of the argument).

Ferrari is capped at 7k per year, Marchionne wants to bring it up to 10k per year over the next few years.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by AW335TT

Ferrari is capped at 7k per year,

Yes I know, and if you believe this thread
http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/fe...n-numbers.html
that is already pretty much compared with the 80's and 90's, so that looks more like an exponential growth.

There is probably a delicate line between what is needed to keep existing and how far you can expand a brand to maximize profit without interfering with the prestige market potential of the brand.

But back to this ferrari: NA v12 in a light chassis is always awesome
In the numerous P1/918/LaF comparisons the LaF might not always have been the fastest/best car, but it always wins the best sound part. Only a V12 can give that high pitch goosbump whine when it climbs high into the revs.
Too bad they're made of unobtainium.

[AW335TT]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Yes I know, and if you believe this thread
http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/fe...n-numbers.html
that is already pretty much compared with the 80's and 90's, so that looks more like an exponential growth.

There is probably a delicate line between what is needed to keep existing and how far you can expand a brand to maximize profit without interfering with the prestige market potential of the brand.

But back to this ferrari: NA v12 in a light chassis is always awesome
In the numerous P1/918/LaF comparisons the LaF might not always have been the fastest/best car, but it always wins the best sound part. Only a V12 can give that high pitch goosbump whine when it climbs high into the revs.
Too bad they're made of unobtainium.

Porsche sells almost 200k per year, I honestly dont think a jump from 7 to 10 will do much. Might actually be better, the cars are rolling advertisments.

As much as I see Ferraris on the street, in LA, I never get tired of it.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

ah yes di montezemolo...all those italian names look the same
If he was too conservative and lacked future vision.... I dont know...
I mean seeing a ferrari is a completely different experience than seeing a porsche.
I think its pretty much impossible to both produce more models and still keeping it exclusive. Dilute a brand is pretty much a non descriptive measurement.
I mean look at lamborghini. In the 80's or 90's you never saw a lambo. Now its not that uncommon anymore.
But it's true that ferrari gets more competition; Lamborghini has crancked up their production by a truely huge factor in the last 10-15 years (since the gallardo), and mclaren also has become a big competitor in this segment.
At the true top both koenigsegg and pagani have emerged (and bugatti).
And I think they lost in that segment. In the 80's and 90's ferrari was pretty well up into that top tier segment (I cant come up with cars positioned above the 288, f40 and f50, except for the mclaren F1 which was I think more a competitor to the f50, ok 106 produced compared to 349).
So I can somewhat get into the point di montezemolo was trying to defend. Ferrari had been very exclusive for over 50 years, and I think they lost terrain at the absolute top tier segment. Both in prestige and comparing models.
If thats a bad thing I dont know; I'm not in the position to buy a top tier car, if I buy a ferrari I can only buy a 2nd had base model.
But how I look at the brand has changed. Less exclusive (and maybe more affordable)

I think di montezemolo also was FIAT CEO for some time (so predecessor to marchionne), so that must have hurt, getting bumped by your successor....

I disagree with you: Lamborghini is an audi in disguise nowadays, and don't even get the best audi bits. Koenisegg and Pagani are not in the same league, they are artisan makers. McLaren is the real true competitor to Ferrari.

If you want measurable. Just check the prices of used 458 and Laferrari for example, they outperfrom the market by far (a used LaFerrari costs over 6 million, way above whet they were new) which means they are the benchmark.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

I disagree with you: Lamborghini is an audi in disguise nowadays, and don't even get the best audi bits. Koenisegg and Pagani are not in the same league, they are artisan makers. McLaren is the real true competitor to Ferrari.

Actually you agree with me (about ferrari not being in the same top tier league as koenigsegg and pagani), and that lamborghini has lost a lot of its exclusivity. In the 90's they only made the diablo, and in very low numbers, so audi taking it over has lead to 'mass' production (in lamborghini standards)
Half of all lambo's ever produced was a gallardo
Still, in 2015 lamborghini sold 3,245 cars, which of course is only half (even less than half) of what ferrari sells (7664 cars in 2015), so they are still much rarer. They obviously also have less models, but they are a smaller brand.

If you want measurable. Just check the prices of used 458 and Laferrari for example, they outperfrom the market by far (a used LaFerrari costs over 6 million, way above whet they were new) which means they are the benchmark.

Maybe, but a used 430 is about the same as a used gallardo from the same era. At least over here in europe.
For sure the gallardo (or huracan) are build on audi platforms and that takes away some of its unobtainium factor.
But ferrari has also been known to root around in the fiat parts bin (but not taking on whole platforms obviously, more like knobs and pieces)

Both brands have taken the path of exponential growth. For now at least.
Good if you can only afford one in the bottom end of the market as that will come down eventually in relative price and choice/availability.
MAybe some day I can buy one (I hope). Still not sure which brand/model I'd be going for.

I still dont know if it was a good thing that Marchionne got di Montezemolo to leave (maybe even fired?)
Sure Marchionne is a good manager/industrialist as he made fiat a very profitable company even buying chrysler (that was an eye opener and bold move, now turning out jeeps on a fiat 500/panda platform ), but he doesnt have the history with racing, supercars and that niche world that di Montezemolo had (having been at ferrari for decades).
Marchionne is a bookkeeper, an accountant. Not someone with supercars and racing in his dna so to speak (although he probably likes fast ferrari's who doesnt )
To be honest I trust a brands image/prestige/exclusivity/whatever you want to call it (panache comes to mind....) more with someone that has been with that brand for 40 years or so and has lived that brand and its racing endeavours to the full extend than that I trust it with an accountant.
But on the other hand regarding the brands revenue and profitablilty I trust the bookkeeper

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Actually you agree with me (about ferrari not being in the same top tier league as koenigsegg and pagani), and that lamborghini has lost a lot of its exclusivity. In the 90's they only made the diablo, and in very low numbers, so audi taking it over has lead to 'mass' production (in lamborghini standards)
Half of all lambo's ever produced was a gallardo
Still, in 2015 lamborghini sold 3,245 cars, which of course is only half (even less than half) of what ferrari sells (7664 cars in 2015), so they are still much rarer. They obviously also have less models, but they are a smaller brand.


Maybe, but a used 430 is about the same as a used gallardo from the same era. At least over here in europe.
For sure the gallardo (or huracan) are build on audi platforms and that takes away some of its unobtainium factor.
But ferrari has also been known to root around in the fiat parts bin (but not taking on whole platforms obviously, more like knobs and pieces)

Both brands have taken the path of exponential growth. For now at least.
Good if you can only afford one in the bottom end of the market as that will come down eventually in relative price and choice/availability.
MAybe some day I can buy one (I hope). Still not sure which brand/model I'd be going for.

I still dont know if it was a good thing that Marchionne got di Montezemolo to leave (maybe even fired?)
Sure Marchionne is a good manager/industrialist as he made fiat a very profitable company even buying chrysler (that was an eye opener and bold move, now turning out jeeps on a fiat 500/panda platform ), but he doesnt have the history with racing, supercars and that niche world that di Montezemolo had (having been at ferrari for decades).
Marchionne is a bookkeeper, an accountant. Not someone with supercars and racing in his dna so to speak (although he probably likes fast ferrari's who doesnt )
To be honest I trust a brands image/prestige/exclusivity/whatever you want to call it (panache comes to mind....) more with someone that has been with that brand for 40 years or so and has lived that brand and its racing endeavours to the full extend than that I trust it with an accountant.
But on the other hand regarding the brands revenue and profitablilty I trust the bookkeeper

I guess you summed it up ;-).

Having been at the Ferrari factory, I can tell you that the engines are sand casted, and are hand built. In fact almost everything is hand built, from the welding of the aluminium to make the chassis to the sewing of the leather to make the seats and dash. The only non-manual thing is the painting process. There are parts from FCA but usually they are not seen (knobs are now different - not like it used to be). As you said, the platforms are unique to each model (except for continuation models like the 488 VS 458, but then again they are highly modified with advanced in materials etc). I've never been to the Lamborghini factory, but I can say that all this hand process kind of justify the price for Ferrari.

About di Montemezolo, he stepped on the toes of Marchione, who was the FCA group's CEO and also the F1 results were subpar after the Schumacher/Todt days. Marchione may be an accountant, but he's also (Canadian) Italian so I'm certain he understand the Ferrari mystique and brand worth. If it were not for him, the Fiat or Chrysler brand would not exist today...

About Audi taking over Lamborghini. The bad thing is that very little differentiates a R8 from a Huracan on an engineering's perspective... You don't see that with Ferrari. On the other hand, the Aventador is more like a "real" Lamborghini...

By the way, F430, especially the Scuderia are on the rise and will be worth much more than the Gallardos ;-)