Nick Murray Reviews the Cayman GT4

[DieGrüneHölle]

Ironically people like Christian Horner, Rob Smedley, Adrian Newey have stated current F1 cars are too easy to drive. Hamilton and Vettel have echoed the same sentiments, both having said lets go back to V12's and manual gearboxes.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by ra2fanatic

I don't see that as off putting or arrogant, but I digress, we are all open to our own opinions.

I can ask many at my work if they know how to drive a manual and 95% of them have never driven or learned to drive a manual. And with congestion here in LA, it's an afterthought for most. No one would want to drive a heavy clutch through traffic, and that's why I say it gives novices easier access to these cars.

Even if that were true, does it matter? I can drive a manual but I still prefer a dual clutch. But so what if someone doesn't know how to drive a manual. Does that make them a "novice" and unworthy of driving these cars?

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Using that argument, will you be running 15" wheels and removing the fenders and roof from your car, Mr. Hamilton?

I'm not following.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by 991GT3

I'm not following.

Using F1 technology to support PDK is a bit suspect, when they don't actually run a dual clutch and have plenty of "formula" rules that don't fit your argument, like 15" open wheels and a lack of a roof/hood.

This remains a silly argument. Both types of transmissions are good and have their places. I think it all boils down to when the choice is available, everyone wins. Thankfully it appears the 991.2 GT3 will be the first time that both transmissions are offered, a win for both camps.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

Ironically people like Christian Horner, Rob Smedley, Adrian Newey have stated current F1 cars are too easy to drive. Hamilton and Vettel have echoed the same sentiments, both having said lets go back to V12's and manual gearboxes.

And dear lord yes to the V12 and maybe an H16 or two.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by ra2fanatic

I don't see that as off putting or arrogant, but I digress, we are all open to our own opinions.

I can ask many at my work if they know how to drive a manual and 95% of them have never driven or learned to drive a manual. And with congestion here in LA, it's an afterthought for most. No one would want to drive a heavy clutch through traffic, and that's why I say it gives novices easier access to these cars.

Yes manuals are a drag in traffic (that's why I said they're tedious) but they're not difficult to use.
As far a performance cars are concerned dual clutch set ups make more sense given the power and sophistication of the rest of the car.
If you love the manual great.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by atxgt3

But so what if someone doesn't know how to drive a manual.

Originally Posted by atxgt3

Does that make them a "novice"...

Yes

Originally Posted by atxgt3

...and unworthy of driving these cars?

Well if they can't drive a manual how would they drive a GT4, any GT3 prior to 991, the new 911 R, etc. Unworthy maybe not, but physically unable...yes.

[Red Bread]

I had a manual M Coupe and the wife's auto 135i when I lived in Orange County. The 1er was actually worse in traffic since the automatic creep took more foot pressure to negate than the force to engage the clutch in my M Coupe.

We took my car when heading into LA, sort of negating the 'automatics are easier in traffic' argument. Using a clutch is like walking, once you know how to do it, it's not any harder than using a moving sidewalk.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Using F1 technology to support PDK is a bit suspect, when they don't actually run a dual clutch and have plenty of "formula" rules that don't fit your argument, like 15" open wheels and a lack of a roof/hood.

This remains a silly argument. Both types of transmissions are good and have their places. I think it all boils down to when the choice is available, everyone wins. Thankfully it appears the 991.2 GT3 will be the first time that both transmissions are offered, a win for both camps.

I'm using a F1 to state the highest end performance cars don't use manuals.
If that bothers you, step it down to the highest end street legal cars. They don't use manuals either.
If you love a manual good for you and it appears that Porsche bowed to the pressure. Hopefully it doesn't end up like the E60 M5 manual.

[Red Bread]

Okay, if we're just talking the ultimate track time performance, the fastest cars all have some form of hybrid assist. So you're still a step away from greatness.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Okay, if we're just talking the ultimate track time performance, the fastest cars all have some form of hybrid assist. So you're still a step away from greatness.

Is that what we are talking about? Or is this just an exercise in fallacious arguments?

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

Yes


Well if they can't drive a manual how would they drive a GT4, any GT3 prior to 991, the new 911 R, etc. Unworthy maybe not, but physically unable...yes.

So? Who cares?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by 991GT3

Is that what we are talking about? Or is this just an exercise in fallacious arguments?

It's the Internet. We're just arguing a silly subject. PDK is great, especially in the heavy hitters. But what's wrong with giving folks the choice?

Ferrari has hinted that they'll offer three pedals for a serious premium. They've noticed the absurd resale on the last manual cars and want back into that market.

[Red Bread]

To be fair, I really have no issue with P offering the GT4 with PDK too.

[mremg]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I had a manual M Coupe and the wife's auto 135i when I lived in Orange County. The 1er was actually worse in traffic since the automatic creep took more foot pressure to negate than the force to engage the clutch in my M Coupe.

We took my car when heading into LA, sort of negating the 'automatics are easier in traffic' argument. Using a clutch is like walking, once you know how to do it, it's not any harder than using a moving sidewalk.

I agree with you. The 'creep' is what I don't like about automatic cars, especially in slow moving traffic. Once you know how to pace yourself in a manual car, driving a stick is so much better in any situation.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

It's the Internet. We're just arguing a silly subject. PDK is great, especially in the heavy hitters. But what's wrong with giving folks the choice?

Ferrari has hinted that they'll offer three pedals for a serious premium. They've noticed the absurd resale on the last manual cars and want back into that market.

That's cool. I don't have a problem with Porsche putting a manual in their vehicles. I'm just expressing my opinion of the manual and reacting to some of the snide commentary on paddles and power.

One offs will always garner a lot of money but the manual is dying for a reason (or reasons). Like I mentioned, I was considering a heavily discounted gated manual V10 R8 a few years back as evidence that manual in performance cars is dying.
That said, the one car I think runs counter to that is the GT3. Frankly I was a bit shocked they didn't offer the 991.1 in a manual. I thought PDK would be an option.

[to_riffic]

It's so much more rewarding when you can heel toe into a corner and exit out like a pro, w/o using auto blip. I don't get that sensation when all I have to do is click a paddle.

This argument is definitely not going to go anywhere, it's the case everytime there's a discussion about auto vs manual. At the end of the day, I'm glad the GT4 is manual only and wish they had kept the GT3/RS manual only as well, but there's always going to be someone who wants to say paddles are faster and you can extract more power and time out of it.

Unless you're making tens of millions as a professional, you can say all you want, but you're not really going to be extracting all that power on the track or on the street regardless of the transmission. I'll gladly sacrifice that tenth of a second to have my manual over paddles any day.

[Red Bread]

Meh, batteries and their insta-torque will kill all of our transmissions anyway. No reason for flappy paddle folks to feel superior to the three pedal set. It's all going away.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by ra2fanatic

It's so much more rewarding when you can heel toe into a corner and exit out like a pro, w/o using auto blip. I don't get that sensation when all I have to do is click a paddle.

This argument is definitely not going to go anywhere, it's the case everytime there's a discussion about auto vs manual. At the end of the day, I'm glad the GT4 is manual only and wish they had kept the GT3/RS manual only as well, but there's always going to be someone who wants to say paddles are faster and you can extract more power and time out of it.

Unless you're making tens of millions as a professional, you can say all you want, but you're not really going to be extracting all that power on the track or on the street regardless of the transmission. I'll gladly sacrifice that tenth of a second to have my manual over paddles any day.

Yeah its going nowhere but your post is an example of why my hackles come up in this debate.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by mremg

I agree with you. The 'creep' is what I don't like about automatic cars, especially in slow moving traffic. Once you know how to pace yourself in a manual car, driving a stick is so much better in any situation.

The PDK in the GT3 doesn't creep FWIW.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by ra2fanatic

Unless you're making tens of millions as a professional, you can say all you want, but you're not really going to be extracting all that power on the track or on the street regardless of the transmission. I'll gladly sacrifice that tenth of a second to have my manual over paddles any day.

Well there is a very common scenario where you can extract all that power on the street. Flooring it on an empty stretch of road to get that rush of adrenaline. I don't know about you, but I'm just a big kid and I love to do that as often as I can. Safely, of course. That's the main reason I love the PDK, it allows me to accelerate as quickly as the car is capable of.

I love fast cars and driving them fast (well, accelerating quickly, not going fast.) Other people love the involvement of rowing gears at a more leisurely pace. There's absolutely nothing wrong with either preference. Ideally the cars would be offered with both transmissions.

[mremg]

Originally Posted by atxgt3

The PDK in the GT3 doesn't creep FWIW.

That's good. It seems like creep is intentionally programmed in many lower-end car DSG trannies because people are more used to it. I honestly hope that they just leave it out even in luxury cars or atleast an option to turn it off.