Pure Electric M Cars are Eventuality Says BMW M CEO, But Hybridization Comes First

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Sorry, burning gas, carbon emissions, are not bad. Cows make more than people. Mining and refining nickel, that's toxic heavy metal stuff. That's bad.

You're right cows are the worst. But that doesn't make burning fossil fuels any better. Both are bad!
I do wish, when I'm in traffic, I'm surrounded by EVs, so I don't have to inhale all this from ICE cars
Luckily I have bio defense mode built into my car and I don't have to smell that black diesel truck

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Sorry, burning gas, carbon emissions, are not bad. Cows make more than people. Mining and refining nickel, that's toxic heavy metal stuff. That's bad.

Are you saying that the solution is to eat more beef?

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Are you saying that the solution is to eat more beef?

That's right. Eat more cows so more are grown. That will make car pollution look much better

[Fundguy1]

You're still avoiding the real pollution here, the batteries.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

You're still avoiding the real pollution here, the batteries.

I'd like to see some data proving this
Knowing Elon Musk, this wouldn't be allowed
I personally lived in oil city for 20+ yrs
You have no idea how bad for the environment oil drilling is. All you have to do is look around

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

You're still avoiding the real pollution here, the batteries.

https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas...t-green-think/

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by jpnh

https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas...t-green-think/

From this article. They, btw, didn't have much knowledge or info about gigafactory when the article was written

As the battery market grows?driven by investments like Tesla?s upcoming Gigafactory?its greater numbers will drive up recycling efficiencies and reduce impact on the environment.

OK, so an electric vehicle contributes a fair bit of pollution and greenhouse gases to the world. But you know what else does? A gasoline-powered car. Even though they don?t have batteries, conventional automobiles can contain plenty of the same problematic rare metals that electric cars do. (Remember those magnets?) You can?t judge Tesla, or any other electric car, in a vacuum. You must compare it to the status quo. And that status quo has many of the same problems?plus the carbon emissions and air pollution generated by traditional gas guzzlers.

P.S. My household is 106% solar

[Fundguy1]

Ok and...
I live in Florida. I haven't seen any solar for electric yet. A bunch of solar pool heaters. Solar makes more sense in California because your governors have made poor electric deals and the cost is outrageous. Instead of building power plants powered by natual gas and approved by the Sierra Club, you instead outsource it from neighboring states who build the same plant causing the same pollution and charging you double. The California plan for no pollution is NIMBY. So for batteries, electricity, the pollution is still created, but you don't see it.

[AndreyATC]

This is US break down
Coal = 33%
Natural gas = 33%
Nuclear = 20%
Hydropower = 6%
Renewables = 7%
Petroleum = 1%
Other gases = <1%

Florida mainly uses Natural Gas

However, even if it was all coal, it would still require less carbon footprint to get EV moving vs ICE

Luckily Coal is being replaced with other sources
Just not fast enough

And, btw, i'm not arguing that EV is completely emission free, but it helps a lot to reduce it and remove dependency on foreign oil

[Wolf 335]

You two are going at it but with what purpose?

Your debate, regardless of who is right, will not change the fact that Electric Vehicles will take over the Internal Combustion Engines.

Gas companies shut down production and ownership of an electric vehicle once (Saturn EV1), but they will not be able to do it again. If you need a reminder of that and more info please look up "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

Now with many car manufacturers taking on the task of implementing electric power, the move is too great to be stopped. People simply want this, and the time is right. Establishing a charging network is not even that complicated as it will be implemented to already existing parking lots. Charge speeds we increase and you will come to a point where owning an electric car will seem like common sense.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

This is US break down
Coal = 33%
Natural gas = 33%
Nuclear = 20%
Hydropower = 6%
Renewables = 7%
Petroleum = 1%
Other gases = <1%

Florida mainly uses Natural Gas

However, even if it was all coal, it would still require less carbon footprint to get EV moving vs ICE

Luckily Coal is being replaced with other sources
Just not fast enough

And, btw, i'm not arguing that EV is completely emission free, but it helps a lot to reduce it and remove dependency on foreign oil

As i said before, who gives a flip about carbon footprint. Its a hoax cooked up 25 yrs ago by socialists and former communists who were failing theirvworld weakth distribution, got some left leaning french scientists to now admittedly fudge the numbers, then got everyone else to base their findings off those biased numbers. The obama administration gave a directive to all the agencues that if you want funding, etc, get on board. He also is into righting the wrong of american capitalism as he sees it. Nasa the cia, etc all now have embedded in them pro global warming people. Trump asked for their names and obama refused him. The world is warming. At the same rate it hasvalways been warming at since the last ice age. There is zero evidence proving man is responsible for any of it. And now for the past 5 yrs they call it climate change. Why? Because all the evidence of warming scientists sought to prove global warming contradicted the initialfindings so they had to create a generic undefinable term so it couldn't be challenged.

Yet the flip side is huge areas are being desolated permanently by nickel production for batteries. This is real quantifiable pollution.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Wolf 335

Your debate, regardless of who is right, will not change the fact that Electric Vehicles will take over the Internal Combustion Engines.

I dont believe this is a forgone conclusion at all

Particularly given the strategic issues that revolve around obtaining rare earth metals required to construct batteries......China being the primary global source and they are in short supply and have been for a while

Furthermore, electric cars are 100% dependent on a stable/reliable electric grid.....something that much of the world does not have

The internal combistion engine and petro fuels are not going anywhere anytime soon.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

As i said before, who gives a flip about carbon footprint. Its a hoax cooked up 25 yrs ago by socialists and former communists who were failing theirvworld weakth distribution, got some left leaning french scientists to now admittedly fudge the numbers, then got everyone else to base their findings off those biased numbers. The obama administration gave a directive to all the agencues that if you want funding, etc, get on board. He also is into righting the wrong of american capitalism as he sees it. Nasa the cia, etc all now have embedded in them pro global warming people. Trump asked for their names and obama refused him. The world is warming. At the same rate it hasvalways been warming at since the last ice age. There is zero evidence proving man is responsible for any of it. And now for the past 5 yrs they call it climate change. Why? Because all the evidence of warming scientists sought to prove global warming contradicted the initialfindings so they had to create a generic undefinable term so it couldn't be challenged.

Yet the flip side is huge areas are being desolated permanently by nickel production for batteries. This is real quantifiable pollution.

It is a hoax for you and let's keep it that way
This is not a debate about climate change
The stuff that comes out from each tail pipe is killing people one way or the other. Sometimes it happens in the matter of minutes when one CO poisoned
I, personally would like to breathe cleaner air and I want my children to have cleaner future

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Ok
I'm not going to judge your professional skills in EMF and etc. I do have a question though
Are you still in the field?
Do you know that not all EVs created equal?
Please elaborate on pollution matter
I just can't see Tesla's would be so horrible for environment, especially when everyone around burns tons of gasoline. I mean, you need to burn gas to produce gas. Then you need to burn gas to deliver gas. Then you burn gas to get from point a to b.
As for the EMF, what do you think about this article?
You think your car is any safer?
http://www.createhealthyhomes.com/car_EMFs.php

Here is another one from CR
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...WantsFull=true

So, Tesla generates 1 mG, while Chevy Cobalt 30 mG. And this with safety standard of 2000

P.S. My house is far from the cell tower and I'd like to keep it that way. I also have minimal wi-fi at the house. Everything is hardwired, except phones and tablets. No cordless phones

few facts to start:
- almost half the lifetime carbon-dioxide emissions from an electric car come from the energy used to produce the car, especially the battery. The mining of lithium, for instance, is a less than green activity. By contrast, the manufacture of a gas-powered car accounts for 17% of its lifetime carbon-dioxide emissions. When an electric car rolls off the production line, it has already been responsible for 30,000 pounds of carbon-dioxide emission. The amount for making a conventional car: 14,000 pounds.
- the life-cycle analysis shows that for every mile driven, the average electric car indirectly emits about six ounces of carbon-dioxide. The production of the electric car has already resulted in sizeable emissions—the equivalent of 80,000 miles of travel in the vehicle.
So unless the electric car is driven a lot, it will never get ahead environmentally
- reports showed that recharging takes so long that the average speed is close to six - ten miles per hour
- the batteries have no range and suffer in cold climates reducing the range and battery life. There are already victims of -30 C seen on the road.
- if the energy used to recharge the electric car comes mostly from coal-fired power plants, it will be responsible for the emission of almost 15 ounces of carbon-dioxide for every one of the 50,000 miles it is driven—three ounces more than a similar gas-powered car.
- another thing, for example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. In general, the average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On a small street, the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than 3 houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be over-loaded. There is also more pollution due to electricity demand, but you won't see it...
- It was a test where the Volt cost $0.73/ mile and a normal gas 2.0 vehicle was $0.10/mile. Also keep in mind the max speed you can run on pure electric to get that range.
- battery production requires a tremendous amount of electricity. the initial production of the vehicle and the batteries together make up something like 40 percent of the total carbon footprint of an EV – nearly double that of an equivalent gasoline-powered vehicle.
- In the same token with your logic, you need gas to build your factory, you need gas to dig for materials for your batteries, you need gas to deliver your components, you need petroleum to make your seats, dashboard and a huge amount of components in your car, gas is the one that helps in extracting and obtaining the components for your vehicle.
- To obtain these special materials for batteries, workers dig eight-foot holes and pour ammonium sulfate into them to dissolve the sandy clay. Then they haul out bags of muck and pass it through several acid baths; what’s left is baked in a kiln, leaving behind the rare earths required. At this mines, those rare earths amounted to 0.2 percent of what gets pulled out of the ground. The other 99.8 percent—now contaminated with toxic chemicals—is dumped back into the environment. That damage is difficult to quantify, just like the impact of oil drilling. Even solar panels depend on rare metals that have to be dug out of the earth and processed in less-than-green ways. And, as in every stage of the process, mining has hidden emissions; many mines rely on rock-crushing equipment with astronomical energy bills, as well as coal-fired furnaces for the final baking stages. Those spew a lot of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the process of refining a material destined for your zero-emissions car.

It seems that you are aware of few facts about the subject which is nice to see, but I believe that you have a generic knowledge about this, which still makes you a victim of propaganda.
Your article focuses on deviating the real problem towards "dirty electricity" which is by analogy, like talking about aerodynamics but instead of looking at the front and windshield we are bashing the mirrors. Dirty electricity and spurious emissions are just a small amount of the problem. Not negligible, but just a part.
As a note, European maximum permitted tolerances are hundreds of times stricter than North American ones.
If we take spurious emissions for example in all the other cases, Europe is more stringent than the US and Canada. For example, for the fixed service, a striking discrepancy is indicated, of up to 37 dB, i.e. the US allows spurious levels up to 5,000 (!!!!) times higher in power than in Europe.
The limits for RF exposure (W/m2) in US is 10 while in Europe is 0.1! Do the math.
Europe is shown to be more inclined to adopt a precautionary approach in human hazards, whereas North America generally prefers a (very) relaxed policy, in order to stimulate economic growth while being indifferent to citizens health.
Same discrepancy in cell towers regulations, EMF emissions and other field related residuals.
Also, the electric car is not only EMF. You are sitting on a battery that has its own 'aura" of field and not only that, regardless of their assurance, if you believe that is perfectly sealed and not exposed to other hazards as well, you are dreaming. Yes, a gas vehicle is a lot safer, from EMF field point of view to lack of invisible hazards that are nonexistent inside the cabin o a IC vehicle. The comparison of EMf rotational wheels to the one on an electric car is just a “you have some too” explanation which is in fact incomparable. And BTW, “you have that too” on the EV but it adds up to the rest. 
The lack of emissions does not mean less pollution and a clean air is nothing if the food your kids will eat comes from a polluted soil. You are mentioning oil extractions which came a long way and can be reversed with a good environmentally program that injects water back in the sands, while your toxic cyanide contaminated soil is doomed for hundreds of years.
Other thoughts:
- Your vehicle can not be used on off road or to access remoted areas, ex. cabins without electricity
- Soon, you will stand in line to charge your vehicle
- You will lose your life charging your vehicle (see above note about the average speed you get with this vehicle)
- your vehicle can not be left at the margin of the woods somewhere and started few weeks later if you want or need
- you cannot have somewhere a jug with electricity that will provide you with another 800 km range.
- your vehicle has a certain range and cannot use “regular power” if “premium power” is not available
- your vehicle can not run at lower temperatures properly, and the life cycle of your batteries will be greatly diminished by a cold environment.
- Your vehicle will be affected in resale value by the number of years of your battery
- you have no freedom and your liberty of freedom is dictated by others
- Your route can not be deviated in a case of emergency or when you want or feel adventourish, your route is dictated by the “grid map”
- You have no freedom of choice, your vehicle is updated with things that you don’t know or depend on.
- Your vehicle disclose to others all your moves
- Your vehicle can not be modified, customized, personality defined
- Your vehicle forces you to be dependent of others while taking away from you some really important human rights. The funny thing is, you give them away freely. Actually, you even pay for that!
- Your vehicle is as safe for you as the cellphone is for your brain.
Etc.

[Wolf 335]

^ Are these not the same things man riding a horse said when combustion engine came into this world?

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Wolf 335

^ Are these not the same things man riding a horse said when combustion engine came into this world?

Roughly

Originally Posted by Tracus

few facts to start:
- almost half the lifetime carbon-dioxide emissions from an electric car come from the energy used to produce the car, especially the battery. The mining of lithium, for instance, is a less than green activity. By contrast, the manufacture of a gas-powered car accounts for 17% of its lifetime carbon-dioxide emissions. When an electric car rolls off the production line, it has already been responsible for 30,000 pounds of carbon-dioxide emission. The amount for making a conventional car: 14,000 pounds.
Please provide where you got the info. I'd like to know if this is specific car manufacturer. I'm pretty sure BMW or Tesla would be handling this differently. Also average ICE car produces 12,000Lbs of CO2 a year. So that's 120,000 per life? So it means you need to emit 20,000lb (17%) to produce ICE car
Other thoughts:
- Your vehicle can not be used on off road or to access remoted areas, ex. cabins without electricity Model X is as capble as X5 or better
- Soon, you will stand in line to charge your vehicle You don't know that. Unless you look into your crystal ball. You, on the other hand (and me in the past) has to wait in line to the gas pump
- You will lose your life charging your vehicle (see above note about the average speed you get with this vehicle)My car charges at 300mph, I spend zero time charging, I plugin at home. You are spending your life pumping gas. Unless you're lucky enough to have gas station in your backyard
- your vehicle can not be left at the margin of the woods somewhere and started few weeks later if you want or need Been there, done that. It goes into deep sleep mode and looses barely anything. Same with my golf cart over entire north-PA winter
- you cannot have somewhere a jug with electricity that will provide you with another 800 km range.Correct, but Never faced this issue or need. I guess you take propane or gas generator in rare scenarios?
- your vehicle has a certain range and cannot use “regular power” if “premium power” is not available Not sure what you mean, but i plug into regular household outlet when i go to my remote cabin
- your vehicle can not run at lower temperatures properly, and the life cycle of your batteries will be greatly diminished by a cold environment.Wrong, Tesla has temperature management, by cooling and heating it as needed. My range in the winter is very close to the summer's
- Your vehicle will be affected in resale value by the number of years of your battery We'll see that at some point, however Tesla has better resale value now than most compatible cars
- you have no freedom and your liberty of freedom is dictated by others
- Your route can not be deviated in a case of emergency or when you want or feel adventourish, your route is dictated by the “grid map” I'll find out what it's like when i get travel trailer. But charging is spaced close enough to do whatever i want
- You have no freedom of choice, your vehicle is updated with things that you don’t know or depend on. I can feel free not to accept the OTA update, but i love the fact that my aging car actually becomes newer and gets more features over time
- Your vehicle disclose to others all your moves I dont care. i'm happy that i'm part of fleet learning system
- Your vehicle can not be modified, customized, personality defined It can, but just like most cars, you lose warranty on the modified component. How's this for customization? http://www.topgear.com/car-news/elec...mph-21-seconds
- Your vehicle forces you to be dependent of others while taking away from you some really important human rights. The funny thing is, you give them away freely. Actually, you even pay for that! Elaborate?
- Your vehicle is as safe for you as the cellphone is for your brain.We are going in circles here. People riding subways should get annual brain check i assume
Etc.

See above

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Tracus

few facts to start:

There's so much garbage in here that I can't honestly take anything typed/copied seriously.

Originally Posted by Tracus

- reports showed that recharging takes so long that the average speed is close to six - ten miles per hour

Unless that report is issued back long, LONG ago when the only pure plug-in EVs available are the GM EV1 and Tesla Roadster, that number is PURE poppycock. It takes me 3 hours to fully charge from nearly zero mile to ~100 miles range during late spring and early fall, when the temperature in So. Cal is above 70º and below 95º. During REALLY cold days for So Cal, like when it drops down to mid 50º, it takes 3 hours to fully charge from nearly zero miles to 80. So even in the worst case, for me, the charge time is approximately 25 miles per hour.

Originally Posted by Tracus

- another thing, for example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service.

Looks like another number pulled from @ss. A home level 2 charging system requires 45A, not 75. In fact my level 2 at home is tied to the same circuit that runs the AC. And yes my home is old and wired to only dish out 100A max. I have not had any issues supporting said charging system, and I know of, on my small block, at least another dozen pure plug-in EVs with houses and grid all built long before I was born.

And a 75A level 2 charger would actually charge at approximately 40 miles per hour, so your two statements contradict each other (actually the higher the amp, the more efficient a level 2 charger would be, so I wouldn't surprised if at 75A that same level 2 charger will charge at closer to 50 miles per hour).

Originally Posted by Tracus

- the batteries have no range and suffer in cold climates reducing the range and battery life. There are already victims of -30 C seen on the road.

While this statement is not an outright lie, the affects of the cold climate on a battery is way overstated. The primary reason why pure EV range suffers during cold climate is because, unlike internal combustion vehicles, where heat is a by-product of the process, on a pure EV heat is provided by using electricity to drive a heating coil. On cold days, if I don't use the climate control, the impact on range is about 8-10% on a 40º temperature swing. It's 20%+ if I turn on the heater.

Originally Posted by Tracus

It seems that you are aware of few facts about the subject which is nice to see, but I believe that you have a generic knowledge about this, which still makes you a victim of propaganda.

At least you're well aware that propaganda is out there to sway people of weak minds one way or another. What you spewed sounds like research that was done 10 years ago to dissuade people from adapting electric propulsion as a means to ease global warming. The TRUTH is, any research can be skewed and presented one way or another to bend it to a certain point of view. Like how Obi-wan considered Darth Vader's ascend as killing Anakin Skywalker.

The TRUTH is, again, the internal combustion process is and have been around for more than a century, and as a process it is far more refined and perfected than electric propulsion. Hence the process to create an ICE driven vehicle is far more efficient RIGHT NOW than a pure EV. But that isn't going to be the case in 5-10 years. Battery tech that can withstand millions of charge cycles, can be charged very quickly, and can hold a much larger amount of charge than current Lithium ION exist today, and will likely be in full production on a larger scale within that 5-10 year time frame that will allow for a higher capacity Lithium ION battery that last longer, don't need to be recycled, and use 1/10th the amount of lithium to delivery the same capacity (see gold nanowire technology. Silicon based nanowire LI batteries are already starting to be in production and will likely be deployed within the next 2-3 years in electronic devices*). And as more and more renewable energy sources come online, the actual impact on carbon footprint for electricity will continue to decrease, where as burning hydrocarbon molecules's effect on green house will not.

The benefit of electric powertrain as a mean of transportation will only improve, so for you to stand here and say progress is evil and status quo is the only way, well, frankly, that's not what got us where we are now as an industrial society. There's simply too much GOOD that CAN come of electric propulsion to let a 100 year old technology stand in the way.

My ONLY gripe in this, is that for the ///M division to say that pure EV will be the way of the future for performance applications, is the reason why I will likely never purchase a new BMW ever again. EV has its benefits, but from a pure performance aspect, nothing beats the use of unadulterated explosion as a way to move around. Now, before you go dig up those Tesla beating M5 on a drag videos, I will say this. Electric motors do deliver all its torque early, quickly, and sustain it for all speeds. From a pure drag racing perspective, spec for spec, electric motors have a huge advantage. But if you're talking about performance application as in like a road course, or performance driving, unless they found a way to bend the laws of physics, you can't drive an EV like you stole it on a moderately sized track with multiple brake zones for more than a handful of laps. I've seen the top end Teslas on a track like Auto Club Speedway, and you can maybe drive it for about 20-25 minutes, then you're off on the parking lot recharging for the next 5 hours. The 250+ mile advertised for some of the newer EVs (Bolt, Tesla Model 3, Tesla X 90/100D, Tesla S 100D etc) won't really last more than 35-40 miles of high speed mountain carving. So for ///M to say this is inevitable, this is the way future Ms will come, well, it just shows to me that BMW doesn't really care about performance in real life (straightline on the other hand...I guess that's about as real world as BMW comes now?) and the "M" really stands only for Marketing, not Motorsports.

*p.s.: I believe Tesla Motors has already started to use some of the innovations discovered in the nanowire battery tech in their current line-up. While nanowire batteries are still a few years off, the use of silicon in lithium ion batteries has already increased capacity 5-10% in current Teslas rolling off the production line. Innovations are happening much quicker in EV technology than ICE technology, by magnitudes. So the attitude that "EVs are not more environmentally friendly NOW than ICEs thus we should not explore it" is pure poppycock.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Wolf 335

^ Are these not the same things man riding a horse said when combustion engine came into this world?

Not at all

the function is roughly the same between EV driven and ICE/CI engine driven vehicle

4 wheels, requires fuel, operates primarily on paved roads

provides some protection from elements while operating

Roughly similar life span

.

[Teutonic]

I will provide a short response to some points and not get involved in any kind of arguments with anybody, because this is futile and non-constructive. I will not spend my time trying to go back and fourth.
Most of the info comes from several sources but not older than 2-3 years as some are suggesting. I will also not go around and search for things, the information is out there, please search and do your homework. As I have said with another occasion, it is up to each individual what wants to do with this information. If you decided for yourself, good for you, enjoy your choice and live with it.

Anyway,

- "Your vehicle can not be used on off road or to access remote areas, ex. cabins without electricity" means not that the vehicle will not be drivable an this terrain, it means that your vehicle will be stuck on a such environment where there is no power (cabin without electricity for few weeks). No freedom. BTW, Your generator runs on gas, right? So, are you polluting to charge your technical wonder or not? In a gas vehicle, the gas is there without generator; you consume the gas to charge your car and the power starts to deplete as soon as you unplug. Also, you are still running gas to charge it and lose one charge on your battery life. How that sounds to you? R-Evolutionary?

- I have 5 gas stations on my way from home to my work place . I NEVER waited to pump gas. I don't know where you live, but here, each gas station has at least 9-12 pumps and I never waited to pump gas. It takes maybe 5 minutes if tank is empty, and I use this time to buy lottery tickets for example. I don't ever remember sitting on a gas station more than 10 minutes (if we use the washroom or buying a coffee) either in Europe or in Canada.

- your vehicle can not be left at the margin of the woods somewhere and started few weeks later if you want or need If you go somewhere for a certain expedition and you are coming back in 2-3 weeks, your vehicle will be dead as you phone is. If this expedition is in a cold climate, please kiss goodbye your "sleep mode" function.

- your vehicle can not run at lower temperatures properly, and the life cycle of your batteries will be greatly diminished by a cold environment. please inform the other fellow too, I am not talking about consuming more of the juice because you need heating. (You guys are funny, still don't know if play the puerile game intentionally) This context was referring to the performance battery in a cold climate, similar with the "crank power " term. regardless what you do or your super extraterrestrial superTesla company will do, the battery performance is greatly reduced at low temperatures and it also affects the life longevity of your battery. A regular vehicle’s battery loses 33% of its power when the temperature dips below 32 degrees F (0 degrees C) and over 50% of its power when the temperature falls below 0 degrees F (-18 degrees C).
Cold temperature causes the performance of all batteries to drop. Bitter cold also makes charging more difficult, especially with Li-ion, as charging is more delicate that discharging. The ability to use a battery at low temperature does not automatically permit charging under these same conditions. Carless charging at low temperatures can inflict permanent damage to the battery. Li-ion should not be charged below zero degree C (32°F). Some battery manufacturers permit charging down to -10°C (14°F) by reducing the charge current to a tenth of the battery rating, a charge that would take 12–15 hours on an empty battery. Charging too fast at low temperatures could lead to dendrite growth, reflecting in higher self-discharge and compromise safety.
Keeping a lower voltage also protects the battery during cold-temperature charging and some BMS limit the voltage and current accordingly. EV owners want ultra-fast charging and technology is available to do so. Although convenient, fast-charging is harmful to the battery. If at all possible, avoid charge times that are less than 90 minutes, or charge rates above 1C. The onboard BMS keeps record of stressful battery events and historic data can work against a warranty claim.
Your range will not be the same in a Canadian winter like the last three weeks with -30 C (almost -30 Fahrenheit), regardless of what you say. I heard from a guy I know of 50% drop to 200 km range in our cold weather.
A gas engine will run, give a similar range and be able to be refueled in maxim 5 minutes, ready to go.

- Regarding the comparison to gasoline internal combustion engine fires - the main difference is that a lithium ion is a dynamic chemical reactor, in contrast to a static fuel tank. Once a lithium ion cell becomes defective, chemical processes can proceed at a slow pace, even in a parked care stored for weeks (for instance dendrite growth) until a safety event occurs. it was a Chevy Volt that passed crash tests, then parked in storage, and several weeks later its battery caught on fire. A battery can undergo internal processes initiated by some stress in the past and trigger a fire or explosion. this also triggers another question mark if in a case of a small collision are you sure you are safe from fire or fumes in the future?

- Freedom means the ability to pick the route you want, independent of any electric grid route. You will not be able to do that in Canada or Alaska, in remote areas. In other words, your vehicle will be good to travel in crowded places, dependent by your grid network. I prefer untouched grounds.

- Nope, your resale value will be affected by the year in top of your mileage. Your charging history, your climate, and the year even if the car was not driven too much (the battery idle is not good either), will dictate your resale value. A whole new game in there.

- If your battery has an issue or needs a warranty replacement, Tesla will provide a repair or a refurbished one in place. How do you feel when you paid that much for that car to receive a refurbished battery? Sounds good to you?

- In the Warranty manual from Tesla is mentioned clearly that "Exposing the vehicle to ambient temperatures above 140°F (60°C) or below -22°F (-30°C) for more than 24 hours at a time" the battery is not covered." There is your answer! https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/...rranty_2.1.pdf
Not sure how you feel about it, but I had a Jaguar and BMW sitting due to lack of space at -40 C (or -40 Fahrenheit) outside with no issues, and run the Jaguar 8 years in a row without a garage with 6 months of winter/year. So in other words, your vehicle can not visit some friends because you need their garage. Even if you will be my friend, I will not pull out any of my cars for your sensible Tesla. Sorry.
Now can you see your "freedom"?

- Ok, I am glad you are happy to be part of the flock. Enjoy being a member of a controlled group. Have fun! I don't like people to know what I am doing, nor getting forced updates in my car. I hope you will not getting an update while driving and you need to "restart".

- "regular power" "premium power" was a funny analogy. You depend on power, I depend on gas. I can always put some regular in my tank and still run even if the engine requires premium, and I can always fill my tank and put in my trunk one, two canisters with gas and run thousand of km in plus on any road with peace in mind. You can't.

Do I still need to elaborate that you are paying 30% more than a normal car while you are monitored and have no freedom of choice?

One more thing: EMF is still there...

[AndreyATC]

Ok, this is a bit ridiculous that you re-iterating the same thing over and over even though i've mention about battery cooling/heating system. Tesla, even when exposed to brutal extreme temperatures operates efficiently. It warms/cool the pack to optimal operating level regardless of ambient temp. People own them in Siberia and no complains. Norwegians love them.
So, anything you say about degradation or battery life is not really valid.
It's only the case with Volt,Bolt,Leaf, and i3, since they dont have any type of battery temp management and they are really exposed to those temperatures
This car may not be for you, or any EV for that matter. Canada is a bit behind on infrastructure. But here in US or in EU it totally works
Again. This is my third Tesla, and trust me, i know my cars limits
And no, my usage in the winter is not affected by temperature, unless i blast heat 24/7
Re accidents:
I'd rather be in Tesla than anything else. After seeing crazy crashes of the car, i feel much more protected in this car.

BTW, for remote cabin prolonged stay, invest in Solar perhaps?
My golf cart is 100% solar, from 2 300w panels, good for a few KWh
I ran inverter to power my remote cabin in case of the outage. It's good enough to run the whole place
You may not get whole lot for your car, but at least it wont lose anything.
And it does not deplete when you unplug it
Or you can get this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005ND19AE..._t1_B01DYFX07M
This will give you 15miles for 1gallon

Just for fun:
http://www.teslarati.com/watch-tesla...-towing-video/
http://insideevs.com/watch-tesla-mod...d-towed-video/

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

It is a hoax for you and let's keep it that way
This is not a debate about climate change
The stuff that comes out from each tail pipe is killing people one way or the other. Sometimes it happens in the matter of minutes when one CO poisoned
I, personally would like to breathe cleaner air and I want my children to have cleaner future

If you live in cali, i get this. Because geographically many of the cities ae in bowls that collect the gases making smog. Not here or most other places however. Its legal to burn trash, yard debris, etc here. No biggie. I get way more gaseous fuumes at the gun range than I would in a month from cars. I eat bacon and eggs every day. My cholesterol is low. I smoke cigarettes by choice not from addiction. Its enjoyable and a stress release thats no different than a beer. And at 50 got a six pack and run around playing ball and paintball, mountain bike, jetski, etc with my teen son. I look and act activity wise early 30s. Everyone's body is different i guess. But i don't get paranoid about air pollution, fumes from spray cans, processed food, etc. I enjoy life, as I can only live it once. One thing I do notice is people my age mostly look physically like crap and couldn't keep up for 30 seconds. Something to remember is physics. A body in motion stays in motion. I never slowed down physically, with exercise or with learning. If you press yourself, daily if possible, mentally and physically, your body and mind don't degrade nearly as fast over time.

[Fundguy1]

You guys write to much to justify your points.

Every post about ev states in timeframe x, say 5-10 yrs for example, the tech WILL be this or do that. BS. There is NO certainty it will. WILL implies definite certainty. When it comes to scientific advances, you can't state absolutes. You can say may, should, is expected to, etc. But WILL, etc, complete bs. The same goes for the global warming/climate change theory or debate. Its a theory, as in unproven. Its also highly and effectively debated, which shows its a weak theory at best. Lithium mining pollution is fact.