Has anyone else been sucked in by the ZL1?

[Mingwan]

So your assessment of the level of quality of a car is based on a comparison of one component on two cars? I guess the camaro's level of quality beats a Mercedes E class because it has strategically placed alcantara throughout the cabin. The Dodge Dart also comes with an electronic speedometer so I guess it's fancier than a Porsche.

I never said the comparable BMW was the pinnacle of interiors; it's not. But it's certainly better than the camaro. I've been in a few of them and while some parts are made of seemingly more expensive materials (seemingly. Key word here), the overall ergonomics and level of quality is sub par. You can draw as many pictures as you want to argue that, but it's not going to change the opinions of the overwhelming majority that feel the same way. It's also not going to change the fact that the camaro's interior is overall constructed using cheaper materials and processes.

....and the level of visibility a driver has in a car has to do more than with the rear window...no one in here denies that sports cars have inheritely lower levels of visibility than an econobox. but you're getting butt hurt anytime anyone mentions the poor level of visibility in the camaro. I've been in camaro's, mustangs, M cars, porsche's etc, and camaro's have some of the worst visibility because it has to do with how much you can see through the back, sides, and front. It doesn't feel like I'm sitting in a bunker when I sit in an M4 or a Porsche. Maybe if you actually sat and drove a sports car with good visibility, your view wouldn't be as narrow as the windows on a camaro.

[TheElementalCashew]

I posted this in another thread, but I traded my F80 for a ZL1 about a month ago and gave a brief comparison of the two at the request of another member.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...4&postcount=12

If anyone finds themselves in San Antonio and would like to check it out, I'd be more than happy to meet up.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

So your assessment of the level of quality of a car is based on a comparison of one component on two cars?

No, but if you are going to start talking about materials and interior parts, you need to put your $ where your mouth is. Tell me exactly what doesn't fit. Show me how it's malformed. Tell me what is rattling. This isn't freaking rocket science these days and video and camera equipment is so good and accessible there should be no excuse for not being able to document it. Back in the day all we had were magazines and we had to take people's words for it, but now we can actually transmit the facts and eliminate the bias, so as I said, you put your money where your mouth is.

I guess the camaro's level of quality beats a Mercedes E class because it has strategically placed alcantara throughout the cabin. The Dodge Dart also comes with an electronic speedometer so I guess it's fancier than a Porsche.

When you start getting objective instead of subjective, some of these features might be, and if you have enough of them, they might be better.

I never said the comparable BMW was the pinnacle of interiors; it's not. But it's certainly better than the camaro. I've been in a few of them and while some parts are made of seemingly more expensive materials (seemingly. Key word here)

Like I said, put your $ where your mouth is. Tell us what parts are cheaper and why. Do they rattle? Do they not function correctly? Are they rough when they are supposed to be smooth? Etc.

the overall ergonomics and level of quality is sub par.

This is something I happen to know a bit about. You might call me biased, having part of my Master's taught by a former GM ergonomics head, but he did not sugar coat anything, and very little time really was spent talking about anything automotive related. The visibility thing is true, it sucks. But, it's a choice, just like someone that would drive a lamborghini or one of many other vehicles. You may be used to very "upright" vehicles, like passenger sedans, and that is fine, but you obviously take some hits with sports cars. Not sure if you've noticed, but the high body panels and low-rooflines is a trend shared by many more than just the Camaro, the sills are even high and the roofline low on my 4 series, as compared to the 3. When I put the seat down low, like i like to have it for my driving position, I can't see the very end of my front hood either. I understand you could never drive a car like that, but it is possible to adapt. Still, this isn't a Camaro thing, it's on all sorts of cars. Backup cameras, blind spot detectors and other technology features are allow us to overcome the limitations. Still, it's not for everyone and yes, it's a little more difficult.

But lets talk a little more about the interior while we are at it. The BMW I have has the cruise control switches on the left of the steering wheel, and the radio switches on the right, just like my BMW. The BMW has orange-ish lights at night, the camaro had blue. Contrary to popular myth, neither is any better, just "not-white" light is what you want. The camaro did have some cool lighted blue accents in the doors at night, which made for a cool effect. The heated seats work the same. The BMW sport seats are not very impressive to me. People seem to rave about how great they are and to make sure to get them, but to me they are just passable. The camaro seats seem far beefier and able to support you during hard driving. Of course that's subjective, but the camaro seats were more of what I expected with "sport seats". Both have heads-up displays. I kind of like the big digital speed readout on the camaro that backs up the classic needle, so you can quickly tell exactly how fast you are going, rather than guess what a needle is saying. Voice commands are about the same in both. Both are about the same to get in and out of. I kind of made that happen by dropping the x-drive with ACS springs, but the technique is essentially exactly the same, plant rear end lift both feet, swing them over the sill. Any other way (like feet one at a time) and you tend to bump the bottom of the sill/running board each time. Door handles work exactly the same, pull twice to unlock and open. Door unlock in same place.
I feel that the I-drive was a little better than the more primitive info-control that my Camaro had, but then again it was a 2010 (with suspension work) so I know they improved that thereafter and greatly with the new version. Idrive in my BMW isn't perfect either, definitely some aspects that are a bit annoying.

....and the level of visibility a driver has in a car has to do more than with the rear window...no one in here denies that sports cars have inheritely lower levels of visibility than an econobox. but you're getting butt hurt anytime anyone mentions the poor level of visibility in the camaro. I've been in camaro's,

Noted.

mustangs,

Old ones were very upright, but never great performers. Newest version with the independent rear suspension is decent, but probably runs into the "sports car" problems you have already mentioned.

M cars,

Passenger sedans mostly, or ones based on passenger sedans, right?

porsche's

Some of these have quite decent visibly for a sports car, fairly unique in that respect.

etc, and camaro's have some of the worst visibility because it has to do with how much you can see through the back, sides, and front. It doesn't feel like I'm sitting in a bunker when I sit in an M4 or a Porsche. Maybe if you actually sat and drove a sports car with good visibility, your view wouldn't be as narrow as the windows on a camaro.

I've had mercedes, I've had BMW, I've had GM and I've had a few others. These days, GM and Ford know they can't just churn out crap, because information is at everyone's fingertips. Used to be most people had no idea "what they were missing" and it used to be that you'd get features on BMWs and others long before they showed up on these "normal" cars, but companies like GM and Ford are bigger and have more ability to leverage R&D and manufacturing. It was only a matter of time before they started exceeding the performance of German and other cars, and only a matter of time before differences in "interior" were just perceived, instead of being based on reality. But I'm definitely open to criticisms, as long as they are based in reality and not just "feels cheap".

Guess what car?

[Mingwan]

Glad I got you writing a dissertation on why the camaro is the best car in the world. I read none of it. Lolz

[Red Bread]

Anyone defending an F chassis BMW interior quality or driving dynamics is on a fool's errand.

[ChuckAWDM2]

Not interested in anything American. I'll stick with Japan and German for now.

[Mingwan]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Anyone defending an F chassis BMW interior quality or driving dynamics is on a fool's errand.

Yeah, especially when you compare it to the camaro which is the bestest best car of them all.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

Glad I got you writing a dissertation on why the camaro is the best car in the world. I read none of it. Lolz

Nobody said its the best car in the world, all that has been said is that the car is criticized by people who have no first hand experience who are using tired old stereotypes about 'American Junk'

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

Yeah, especially when you compare it to the camaro which is the bestest best car of them all.

What are you, borrowing daddy's fancy car forum sign on?

After an actual owner switched between the two and provided feedback, you just want to continue the tired old stick about all American cars sucking?

I'm sure C&D has it all wrong and the new 5er isn't really much less fun to drive than a CTS. F series and now G series cars have been disappointing compared to E series. Other brands have been trying much harder than the Quandt Money Generator.

I don't want a Camaro, but I do kinda want a GT350 just for the noise.

[Mingwan]

Originally Posted by KenB925

Nobody said its the best car in the world, all that has been said is that the car is criticized by people who have no first hand experience who are using tired old stereotypes about 'American Junk'

James seems to think otherwise. any criticism you give the Camaro is apparently unacceptable.

Originally Posted by Red Bread

What are you, borrowing daddy's fancy car forum sign on?

After an actual owner switched between the two and provided feedback, you just want to continue the tired old stick about all American cars sucking?

I'm sure C&D has it all wrong and the new 5er isn't really much less fun to drive than a CTS. F series and now G series cars have been disappointing compared to E series. Other brands have been trying much harder than the Quandt Money Generator.

I don't want a Camaro, but I do kinda want a GT350 just for the noise.

Right, and what are you playing? the heroic defender here?

As soon as you can find where I said the Camaro was a garbage car, come back at me.

I would actually prefer the zl1 1le over an m4, but I guess you didn't see that because you were too busy being a hero.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

James seems to think otherwise. any criticism you give the Camaro is apparently unacceptable.

Right, and what are you playing? the heroic defender here?

As soon as you can find where I said the Camaro was a garbage car, come back at me.

I would actually prefer the zl1 1le over an m4, but I guess you didn't see that because you were too busy being a hero.

Just tired of the blind BMW fanboy-ism. You were just caught in the crossfire, I didn't Sherlock your whole history in here, just caught the final silly one and ran with it.

Carry on with your internet badassery.

[Efthreeoh]

If anyone needs an example of a BMW with poor visibility, go drive a E86 Z4 Coupe.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't own one...

[scorped]

This thread, in its ridiculousness, has become truly popcorn-worthy...lol.

Kids, you know it's okay if not everyone busts a nut a over a coupe because it has 650 hp, right? That doesn't mean its performance isn't astounding, it doesn't make the person a fanboy for any particular brand; it comes down to tastes and tastes differ.

Here more than any other forum I've noticed a pattern: Username A loves a certain car, Username B does not, so, Usernames A, C and D then pounce on B, calling him a 'blind fanboy' and point out flaws in his BMW or BMW in general, even though B never said a word about BMW, or that BMW is better.

Lot of that happening in this thread; the pro-ZL1 users made it a BMW vs. Zl1 thread, when the non-ZL1 users simply said it's not for them. Poor visibility and a polarizing design are valid points; country of origin shouldn't be these days, though, but to some people it still is.

But that's just my take. Carry on; I'll get more popcorn ready.

[RobC2]

I have to admit, I am pretty interested in the ZL1 and am eager to check one out. Seems like a great package.

[RoundelObsession]

This thread should have been titled: Who has been SUCKED UP by a ZL1.

[9krpmrx8]

I saw another one on Saturday, I'm still not sold on the styling inside and out.

[TheElementalCashew]

Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8

I saw another one on Saturday, I'm still not sold on the styling inside and out.

Hey, I was at the C&C! My ZL1 was the other gray one right across the way in the middle of all the BMWs.

[pgviper]

I'm a huge camaro/corvette fan but the one thing that is undeniable is that the exterior is NOT timeless.

In 10-15 years or so these cars are going to look extremely odd. Its already starting to happen to the Gen 5 camaro.

C6 corvette - timeless design
C7 corvette - ehh still up in the air
C5 Camaro - NO
C6 Camaro - definitely not

Doesn't mean I don't like the way they look, I definitely think they look aggressive and have a presence. But in ~10-15 years i'm sure I won't be feeling that.

BMW (most models) - timeless
Porsche - the definition of timeless
Mercedes - NOT timeless
Audi - Used to have issues but has gotten better

Performance on the other hand, undeniable. Absolutely incredible.

Interior, get out of the 90's people. Almost all interiors now-a-days are damn good.

[oolas3]

Originally Posted by scorped

This thread, in its ridiculousness, has become truly popcorn-worthy...lol.

Kids, you know it's okay if not everyone busts a nut a over a coupe because it has 650 hp, right? That doesn't mean its performance isn't astounding, it doesn't make the person a fanboy for any particular brand; it comes down to tastes and tastes differ.

Here more than any other forum I've noticed a pattern: Username A loves a certain car, Username B does not, so, Usernames A, C and D then pounce on B, calling him a 'blind fanboy' and point out flaws in his BMW or BMW in general, even though B never said a word about BMW, or that BMW is better.

Lot of that happening in this thread; the pro-ZL1 users made it a BMW vs. Zl1 thread, when the non-ZL1 users simply said it's not for them. Poor visibility and a polarizing design are valid points; country of origin shouldn't be these days, though, but to some people it still is.

But that's just my take. Carry on; I'll get more popcorn ready.

This +1 all the time. Happened to me recently. I pointed out that a particular newer car wasn't that fast in the 1/4 mile given its relative claimed HP and another poster tried to make it into a comparison with an almost decade old BMW model. I had not even mentioned BMW. LOL.

[Germanauto]

GM product = don't care

[TSM330i]

This is pretty insane!

Tune, nitrous and DRs = 9.98 @ 140mph!

[baege]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If anyone needs an example of a BMW with poor visibility, go drive a E86 Z4 Coupe.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't own one...

no you really should own a z4c

a camaro is much worse though