Highland park IL 4th of July parade shooting

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by tcphoto

It is amazing to me why people feel the need for these military type weapons, I didn't buy my first pistol till I felt a threat in my last house. Three years later, I own two pistols and if I cannot neutralize a threat with them then there's little hope. I see no reason for owning an AR type rifle as a civilian, are they afraid the Russians or other foreign entity will come to their door?

These mass shootings including the young man in Wisconsin are perpetrated by young men, the Highland Park shooter had multiple red flags and his father approved of the rifle purchase. I think the root of the problem for these shootings lies with the parents, where were they when their child made a turn for the worst? Perhaps we should televise an execution of the convicted so it might deter someone from committing the same crime.

You don't, but many do. Some of us want fast cars while others don't understand why we "need" them. After all, we can't drive beyond 65-75 mph lawfully anyway, right?……and any car is capable of accomplishing that. But some of us like the race track and engage in motorsport events, while others just like to know the speed/power/performance is there when we need it. Loose analogy, but that's the gist of your argument.

P.S. Some of you (…along with the media) are far too focused on style. Would it make any difference if the gun weren't black?….Had a wood stock?…Etc.? Military-grade rifle specs vary depending on manufacturer, but they have shorter barrels, are capable of fully automatic fire (..which is absolutely a fundamental difference), etc.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

You don't, but many do. Some of us want fast cars while others don't understand why we "need" them. After all, we can't drive beyond 65-75 mph lawfully anyway, right?……and any car is capable of accomplishing that. But some of us like the race track and engage in motorsport events, while others just like to know the speed/power/performance is there when we need it. Loose analogy, but that's the gist of your argument.

P.S. Some of you (…along with the media) are far too focused on style. Would it make any difference if the gun weren't black?….Had a wood stock?…Etc.?

A car is meant to get you from point A to point B. A gun is meant to kill people, that's its only utility. So a gun which enables someone to kill more people more quickly is natural to question the "need" for (unless of course the need is to kill a bunch of people in short order).

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

A car is meant to get you from point A to point B. A gun is meant to kill people, that's its only utility. So a gun which enables someone to kill more people more quickly is natural to question the "need" for (unless of course the need is to kill a bunch of people in short order).

Like I said, it was a loose analogy. A gun can be used to kill people, but most of us don't ever use our guns for that purpose……unless it's in self defense. Again, people's positions are unlikely to change. Those who feel people don't need rifles can not be persuaded. The same is true for those on the other side.

The delicious irony is the thing not designed to kill (…the automobile) does far more killing than the thing "designed to kill"……..albeit, both when possessed by careless people or people with malicious intent.

[Sedan_Clan]

I propose the banning of all alcohol (…Prohibition 2022). It's sole purpose is to poison and intoxicate and it has no place in our society. Some people are irresponsible with their liquor consumption and the end result is the injury and/or death of others, so nobody should be able to drink alcohol ever again because of the decisions made by those people. Now, those who don't drink won't care, but those who drink recreationally and responsibly will. I think we can all agree that banning all alcohol will save thousands of lives directly and indirectly, so there shouldn't be any objections.



….that is, until people find another way to get drunk (…just like all of the jackasses in prison and the county jails who get drunk off of rubbing alcohol, fermented fruit/bread, etc.) or smuggle it in via various criminal networks, thus perpetuating the problem because…..

…people will find a way (…just like they did when alcohol was banned and people smuggled it in via other means; and those acts are one of the many reasons why law enforcement can search vehicles today….the Carroll Doctrine).

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The problem is that mental health records are not cross-referenced and not all mental health issues are documented. If the person has never been clinically diagnosed, there will be no official record(s).

You keep bringing this up, but I have a VERY hard time believing that you'd be supportive of a program that digs deep into one's mental health history. It also is likely violation of HIPAA. But I guess it's easy to blame mental health, drugs, and upbringing vs considering the guns themselves. My god, anything but my guns! I should be able to own anything I want!

P.S. Magazine size isn't the issue. You can utilize a 30-round mag or even a high capacity drum in a handgun. The Glock is widely popular, easily modified, and there are plenty of peripheral/accessory options (…some that even convert a Glock into a rifle-style weapon in terms of ergonomics). It is not uncommon to come across semi-automatic Glocks converted to full automatic firing.

You seem to consistently be missing the point here. We're talking high capacity mags for high velocity rifles. There's a HUGE difference between the damage caused be getting hit by a high-powered rifle rounds vs a handgun. Get hit in the arm with a 5.62 round and your arm basically separates. Handguns and lower velocity bullets tend to drill holes in bodies. High-velocity rounds blow/tear things a part and make big holes. High-powered rifles also make for crap home defense weapons unless your goal is to shoot through walls.

It's sad that you live in so much fear that you need to carry at all times. Must be difficult to go through life considering all possibilities of how you'll get killed. You're far more likely to get hit by a car when going to the mailbox. It's crazy to me that you're a cop. The cops I know are pretty damn lax and chill nor carry.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

You keep bringing this up, but I have a VERY hard time believing that you'd be supportive of a program that digs deep into one's mental health history. It also is likely violation of HIPAA. But I guess it's easy to blame mental health, drugs, and upbringing vs considering the guns themselves. My god, anything but my guns! I should be able to own anything I want!

It's much easier to assume rather than ask, eh?! You don't know what I would be open to with regards to the mental health issue. Yes, there are HIPAA provisions that protect our private medical history, however, I wouldn't be opposed to some discussion about somebody's mental health being cross referenced as it pertains to the purchase of firearms. I've dealt with many people on Seroquel and other psych meds. I've been engaged in physical fights with them as well. They are not in any condition to have access to a firearm. How many people have YOU dealt with who are on psych/anti-depressant medications; how many were criminals (…my guess is that you'll say "plenty," but it's easy to make those claims)?!?

Look, if you're anti-gun…..that's fine, but let's not be disingenuous about mental health if that is your position.

Originally Posted by XutvJet

You seem to consistently be missing the point here. We're talking high capacity mags for high velocity rifles. There's a HUGE difference between the damage caused be getting hit by a high-powered rifle rounds vs a handgun. Get hit in the arm with a 5.62 round and your arm basically separates. Handguns and lower velocity bullets tend to drill holes in bodies. High-velocity rounds blow/tear things a part and make big holes. High-powered rifles also make for crap home defense weapons unless your goal is to shoot through walls.

No, you're missing the point. The point is:

….far more people die hourly/daily/weekly/annually from handgun rounds than any rifle rounds, so the unnecessary focus on rifles is just posturing.

Yes, rifle rounds cause far more damage. Nobody is disputing that.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

It's sad that you live in so much fear that you need to carry at all times. Must be difficult to go through life considering all possibilities of how you'll get killed. You're far more likely to get hit by a car when going to the mailbox. It's crazy to me that you're a cop. The cops I know are pretty damn lax and chill nor carry.

Whatever bro! I work in a field where I am prepared to protect others 24/7. I'm still a cop off duty. If something happens in front of me that requires me to intervene, I'm always prepared. I also realize that not everybody is fond of me simply because of my profession and even those who do not like me often recognize me when in plain clothes; my face doesn't change (…and neither does theirs). I have a target on my back that the average person does not. I would be utterly stupid to not have a firearm with me at all times.

P.S. The cops you know are……well, stupid! That, or they don't do any appreciable police work. Complacency gets you killed. Hopefully it doesn't happen to one of your "friends," but if it does, let me know so I can set aside my empathy (…not really, even I'm not that much of a jerk; all of my brothers in blue or tan/green will always get love from me, even if their death(s) was/were a result of poor decision making).

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It's much easier to assume rather than ask, eh?! You don't know what I would be open to with regards to the mental health issue. Yes, there are HIPAA provisions that protect our private medical history, however, I wouldn't be opposed to some discussion about somebody's mental health being cross referenced as it pertains to the purchase of firearms. I've dealt with many people on Seroquel and other psych meds. I've been engaged in physical fights with them as well. They are not in any condition to have access to a firearm. How many people have YOU dealt with who are on psych/anti-depressant medications; how many were criminals (…my guess is that you'll say "plenty," but it's easy to make those claims)?!?

How could this possibly work? There would be so many levels to this process. Regulatory agencies and healthcare providers simply don't have the time, manpower, or money.

Would your process not only consider the drugs, but also the side effects of various drug interactions? My 75 y/o mother is on 20 prescription drugs at last count. The drugs are for pain from a knee replacement, back issues, and arthritis. Many of the drugs are to combat issues created by the pain killing drugs. I'm certain the mix of all those drugs effect her mental health. Her doctors say it's fine and shouldn't be a problem. I don't agree at all as I know her way better than they do. She has become way more manic (i.e., extreme highs and extreme lows) over the years which corresponds directly her expanded prescription drug list. Manic disorders also run in her family, but she's never seeked that diagnosis. My point being, where do you draw line with evaluating drug use and family mental history to determine gun ownership?

Also, people's mental clarity can be wrecked by traumatic events. A person could legally own a gun, be the most sane person you've ever known, then experience a significant loss and lose their mind.

Let's be real here. It's never going to happen. There are way too many damaged people out there, many of which are on drugs to combat those issues. The process you're describing would likely weed out a majority of the gun-buying population if mental health, drug usage, and criminal history were considered.

I'm not anti-gun at all, but I am supportive of stronger regulation across the board. I strongly feel that much of the focus should be on the ammo itself. A gun is a terrible weapon without easy access to the bullets.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

You keep bringing this up, but I have a VERY hard time believing that you'd be supportive of a program that digs deep into one's mental health history. It also is likely violation of HIPAA. But I guess it's easy to blame mental health, drugs, and upbringing vs considering the guns themselves. My god, anything but my guns! I should be able to own anything I want!




You seem to consistently be missing the point here. We're talking high capacity mags for high velocity rifles. There's a HUGE difference between the damage caused be getting hit by a high-powered rifle rounds vs a handgun. Get hit in the arm with a 5.62 round and your arm basically separates. Handguns and lower velocity bullets tend to drill holes in bodies. High-velocity rounds blow/tear things a part and make big holes. High-powered rifles also make for crap home defense weapons unless your goal is to shoot through walls.

It's sad that you live in so much fear that you need to carry at all times. Must be difficult to go through life considering all possibilities of how you'll get killed. You're far more likely to get hit by a car when going to the mailbox. It's crazy to me that you're a cop. The cops I know are pretty damn lax and chill nor carry.

i see this get brought up all the time. bringing up the standard round for the ar-15 style guns (223/556).

Are you just against that round? are you against all rounds in a rifle? if someone has an AR-9 (9mm "ar-15") or an AR-10 (308 or 6.5 creedmoor "ar-15"), is that fine since one is a handgun round and one is a standard hunting round? Or is it that you are just against rifles that look like an AR-15, so something like the mini-14 below is fine? (same caliber 223/556, can take extended mags, just doesnt have the ar-15 look)



as for the mental health aspect, you can already be denied from buying a gun for mental health reasons. the problem is most times, family members dont want to blemish a kids record by getting them the help they need so the issue is ignored. As for this kid, the red flags were all there, including videos of him shooting up a school and shooting up police, but of course "kids will be kids" so nothing was ever done about it and the parents continue to make excuses for him.

[CTinline-six]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

i see this get brought up all the time. bringing up the standard round for the ar-15 style guns (223/556).

Are you just against that round? are you against all rounds in a rifle? if someone has an AR-9 (9mm "ar-15") or an AR-10 (308 or 6.5 creedmoor "ar-15"), is that fine since one is a handgun round and one is a standard hunting round? Or is it that you are just against rifles that look like an AR-15, so something like the mini-14 below is fine? (same caliber 223/556, can take extended mags, just doesnt have the ar-15 look)



as for the mental health aspect, you can already be denied from buying a gun for mental health reasons. the problem is most times, family members dont want to blemish a kids record by getting them the help they need so the issue is ignored. As for this kid, the red flags were all there, including videos of him shooting up a school and shooting up police, but of course "kids will be kids" so nothing was ever done about it and the parents continue to make excuses for him.

This is the problem.

"My kid is a perfect amazing angel and would never harm anyone, and if he did then they deserved it". Until the above mindset of parents/teachers/society changes these things will continue to happen. Red flags cannot be ignored. When I worked in the schools they monitored social media, and there were threats made weekly.

The weapon doesn't matter. Pistol, AR-15, machete, car, bus, plane, explosives, etc. People who want to do something bad enough will find a way to do it until met with resistance. Anyone with common sense realizes this. Ever been in an active shooter/attacker drill? Just one guy with a knife in a college campus will be able to assault several people lethally before being stopped. Something similar happened a few towns over from me a few years ago, the guy had a kitchen knife.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

i see this get brought up all the time. bringing up the standard round for the ar-15 style guns (223/556).

Are you just against that round? are you against all rounds in a rifle? if someone has an AR-9 (9mm "ar-15") or an AR-10 (308 or 6.5 creedmoor "ar-15"), is that fine since one is a handgun round and one is a standard hunting round? Or is it that you are just against rifles that look like an AR-15, so something like the mini-14 below is fine? (same caliber 223/556, can take extended mags, just doesnt have the ar-15 look)

No, the look of the gun has nothing to do with it. Yes, "AR-15" does get misused all the time. As I've noted a few times already, semi-automatic guns that can shoot high velocity rounds need to be more regulated. You, as well as I, know that AR-15-style rifles are the most common type of civilian rifle with these specs in the last two decades thus the focus. They are also the weapon of choice in mass shootings. You cannot deny that. If you want to go kill a lot of people efficiently and quickly and you're looking for a legal-to-purchase gun, what are you buying?

as for the mental health aspect, you can already be denied from buying a gun for mental health reasons. the problem is most times, family members dont want to blemish a kids record by getting them the help they need so the issue is ignored. As for this kid, the red flags were all there, including videos of him shooting up a school and shooting up police, but of course "kids will be kids" so nothing was ever done about it and the parents continue to make excuses for him.

Sure, there's truth to this. But there have been plenty of mass shootings committed in the last 10+ years by people way older than 18. It's not just "kids".

We all know people who seem to be a bit "off". Does this mean we should turn them in to cops and have their homes searched for guns and/or their guns taken away? Is that really better? Are you cool with that? What if you have a bad day and act out of character around some colleagues or family? Where will the line be drawn?

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Whatever bro! I work in a field where I am prepared to protect others 24/7. I'm still a cop off duty. If something happens in front of me that requires me to intervene, I'm always prepared. I also realize that not everybody is fond of me simply because of my profession and even those who do not like me often recognize me when in plain clothes; my face doesn't change (…and neither does theirs). I have a target on my back that the average person does not. I would be utterly stupid to not have a firearm with me at all times.

P.S. The cops you know are……well, stupid! That, or they don't do any appreciable police work. Complacency gets you killed. Hopefully it doesn't happen to one of your "friends," but if it does, let me know so I can set aside my empathy (…not really, even I'm not that much of a jerk; all of my brothers in blue or tan/green will always get love from me, even if their death(s) was/were a result of poor decision making).

I bet the Uvalde cops some shit like you before shit got real. Then they bitched out to save themselves. Even though Fox News says other wise. The chief said they should have gone in. They didn't. Do they all still have jobs? Pathetic!!!!!!!!!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

I bet the Uvalde cops some shit like you before shit got real. Then they bitched out to save themselves. Even though Fox News says other wise. The chief said they should have gone in. They didn't. Do they all still have jobs? Pathetic!!!!!!!!!

I've been shot at by somebody who was using an AR-15………..twice (…in the summer of 2020 and in May of 2021)!!!!! Have you?! Yes, I was scared shitless; I thought May of 2021 was going to be the end for me (…and I still watch the video as a reminder whenever I feel myself becoming complacent). I'm not interested in online chest puffing. Let me know when you put your life on the line for somebody else and get back to me.

[Sedan_Clan]

On the subject of ammunition regulation…..



….what are you proposing exactly? In California, it is already illegal for a felon to possess ANY amount of ammunition (…new(er) penal code 30305; 12021.1 PC is the old(er) penal code). I'm sure there are similar laws in other states. California also tracks all ammunition purchases now, so you have to present all of the same documents required to purchase a firearm. How much more regulation do we need?

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I've been shot at by somebody who was using an AR-15………..twice (…in the summer of 2020 and in May of 2021)!!!!! Have you?! Yes, I was scared shitless; I thought May of 2021 was going to be the end for me (…and I still watch the video as a reminder whenever I feel myself becoming complacent). I'm not interested in online chest puffing. Let me know when you put your life on the line for somebody else and get back to me.

No one held a gun to your head or anyone else to be a cop. If you choose that path, be a fucking man and do your job. If not, go work at Starbucks or teach knitting. Don't know what to tell you chief. Do you sign up for the marines and then when it's time to fight go hide in a hole? Come on man. Can't have it both ways. Can't just drink coffee/eat donuts and save a cat from a tree everyday. Glad you were not hurt in those scenarios but 1 dude and an Army of cops? Never going to win that argument. Sorry

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by CTinline-six

This is the problem.

"My kid is a perfect amazing angel and would never harm anyone, and if he did then they deserved it". Until the above mindset of parents/teachers/society changes these things will continue to happen. Red flags cannot be ignored. When I worked in the schools they monitored social media, and there were threats made weekly.

The weapon doesn't matter. Pistol, AR-15, machete, car, bus, plane, explosives, etc. People who want to do something bad enough will find a way to do it until met with resistance. Anyone with common sense realizes this. Ever been in an active shooter/attacker drill? Just one guy with a knife in a college campus will be able to assault several people lethally before being stopped. Something similar happened a few towns over from me a few years ago, the guy had a kitchen knife.

Or the guy that recently ran over the people in the parade with his SUV on purpose.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

On the subject of ammunition regulation…..



….what are you proposing exactly? In California, it is already illegal for a felon to possess ANY amount of ammunition (…new(er) penal code 30305; 12021.1 PC is the old(er) penal code). I'm sure there are similar laws in other states. California also tracks all ammunition purchases now, so you have to present all of the same documents required to purchase a firearm. How much more regulation do we need?

This one is near and dear to me because I have a friend that got caught up in DC's idiotic ammunition law. I've posted up here before about his situation. But the TLDR is he went into a Federal building with a loaded 9mm magazine for his handgun mistakenly from using the same bag the day before at the range. No gun was in the bag nor anywhere near him. Handed over to DC Metro PD. Forced to spend a night in jail. Prosecutor refused to drop the charges of "unregistered ammo" which is a felony. Friend had to lawyer up and spend about $40k to 50k of his own money to defend himself in court. Went to trial and judge dropped the charges. Friend has squeaky clean record and carries a TS/SCI clearance. Didn't matter to the prosecutor.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

This one is near and dear to me because I have a friend that got caught up in DC's idiotic ammunition law. I've posted up here before about his situation. But the TLDR is he went into a Federal building with a loaded 9mm magazine for his handgun mistakenly from using the same bag the day before at the range. No gun was in the bag nor anywhere near him. Handed over to DC Metro PD. Forced to spend a night in jail. Prosecutor refused to drop the charges of "unregistered ammo" which is a felony. Friend had to lawyer up and spend about $40k to 50k of his own money to defend himself in court. Went to trial and judge dropped the charges. Friend has squeaky clean record and carries a TS/SCI clearance. Didn't matter to the prosecutor.

That is unfortunate. Some prosecutors are quick to charge the overall law abiding population but toss charges for the criminals left & right.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

Come on man. Can't have it both ways. Can't just drink coffee/eat donuts and save a cat from a tree everyday.

I had a chuckle at that. No wonder your "friends" are so "lax and chill"…..and never carry. They don't work! 'Round here we work. Plenty of MS13 gangs/cartel affiliates around here shooting people or the black gangs coming here committing home invasion robberies.

[Nuckle]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

No one held a gun to your head or anyone else to be a cop. If you choose that path, be a fucking man and do your job. If not, go work at Starbucks or teach knitting. Don't know what to tell you chief. Do you sign up for the marines and then when it's time to fight go hide in a hole? Come on man. Can't have it both ways. Can't just drink coffee/eat donuts and save a cat from a tree everyday. Glad you were not hurt in those scenarios but 1 dude and an Army of cops? Never going to win that argument. Sorry

Good grief. What a terrible thought process. I could possibly understand your point if you are a combat vet or similar. Please tell me you are.

[Captain Blood]

Anyway, outside of the gun porn guys, it seems like we could eliminate the vast majority of the 20,000+ gun deaths in this country with a few simple steps:

Ban semi automatic rifles, high-capacity magazines, and body armor. Require a special permit, so you can go fire them at the shooting range if you like.

Universal background checks. No more sales at gun shows. Minimum age of 21 to buy a firearm.

I know the gun porn guys will say it's impossible, we can't do it, but don't believe them. They don't understand Americans can do hard things, and can accomplish great things.

[Pablo Chacon]

Originally Posted by Captain Blood

Anyway, outside of the gun porn guys, it seems like we could eliminate the vast majority of the 20,000+ gun deaths in this country with a few simple steps:

Ban semi automatic rifles, high-capacity magazines, and body armor. Require a special permit, so you can go fire them at the shooting range if you like.

Universal background checks. No more sales at gun shows. Minimum age of 21 to buy a firearm.

I know the gun porn guys will say it's impossible, we can't do it, but don't believe them. They don't understand Americans can do hard things, and can accomplish great things.

We don’t want to do it and it’s not happening, get over it. We should ban banning things.