Ford Debuts 7th-Generation S650 Mustang and New Dark Horse Performance Series

[RM7]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Can't we all agree that the primary way Ford and GM have gotten the Stang and Camaro to generate impressive handling numbers is through the use of massively wide wheels, super grippy tires that are done for in 5k-8K miles, pricey electro-magnetic shocks, and huge and expensive brakes?

The running costs to track one of these cars is immense.

And this is somehow different than past years?

It's a bit more complicated than that BTW, you have to do things like plan the tire and wheel-size ahead of time, otherwise it's a lot more expensive and harder to implement. The 305/285 architecture was there early on with the C6 Camaro, so the 1LE and ZL1 were easy to implement. They pushed that a little further with the ZL1 1LE, but the point is, you have to think about this before, due to tire-rub, track, etc. Then there's the chassis stiffness. The Alpha is extremely stiff, they did a good job with it. Then somehow GM is able to make electronic steering work well, unlike BMW with the giant dead-spot I had on the 4-series. Suspension is a lot more than just fancy shocks, but GM has been the one developing this. They also put an eDiff in there well before BMW did on cars like the M2/M3/M4. Yes, they've been pushing the limits in all of these areas, chassis stiffness, suspension, tires and grip, power delivery, etc., also losing a few hundred pounds from the last version (unlike the 2-series). So what's not to like for an enthusiast? Even Porsche has to make their cars wider and wider (and the rear wheels wider) with every version of the 911 to keep up with everything else.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by chris719

Don't know. Almost all of these crazy crashes that have been in the headlines in the US of late are gas sports cars or sedans. Most EVs other than the Plaid are not that fast over 100 mph. The lower speed crashes don't really make headlines. The 120+ mph do and then people in comments are all asking why cars can even go 120 mph.

It is mostly a numbers game.

To make a gas car fast you usually are looking at 8-10k over a mediocre appliance car and that's not getting you something special. On top of that you're talking bad gas mileage so your average joe doesn't buy one.

A EV however already needs 2 motors to be AWD. That's something wildly popular in a lot of the US. The slowest of those are doing sub 6 0-60, but 4s seems pretty trivial from relased cars without getting into cars that claim to be 'performance' variants. In essence you buy AWD you get a pretty damn fast car for free. Now imagine every AWD CUV on the road driven by some cud chewing idiot can accelerate like a mustang GT or similar tier car.

There are going to be a lot more 'fast' cars out there even if they aren't super quick at triple digit speeds.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

It is mostly a numbers game.

To make a gas car fast you usually are looking at 8-10k over a mediocre appliance car and that's not getting you something special. On top of that you're talking bad gas mileage so your average joe doesn't buy one.

A EV however already needs 2 motors to be AWD. That's something wildly popular in a lot of the US. The slowest of those are doing sub 6 0-60, but 4s seems pretty trivial from relased cars without getting into cars that claim to be 'performance' variants. In essence you buy AWD you get a pretty damn fast car for free. Now imagine every AWD CUV on the road driven by some cud chewing idiot can accelerate like a mustang GT or similar tier car.

There are going to be a lot more 'fast' cars out there even if they aren't super quick at triple digit speeds.

You're right, I just think that we may already be entering problem territory before fast EVs become ubiquitous.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

Even before the recent price hikes that'd get you an ecoboost if you want options for $40k OTD. A stripper GT might be doable. I know dealers who would do 4% under invoice on them. They started at 38k IIRC so that'd give you some room for TTL. Of course ones you actually want with the pp1 and 700a are pushing 50k. Zero chance of a Dark Horse being there, especially as a vert.

It's insane. Hard pass for me

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

It is mostly a numbers game.

To make a gas car fast you usually are looking at 8-10k over a mediocre appliance car and that's not getting you something special. On top of that you're talking bad gas mileage so your average joe doesn't buy one.

A EV however already needs 2 motors to be AWD. That's something wildly popular in a lot of the US. The slowest of those are doing sub 6 0-60, but 4s seems pretty trivial from relased cars without getting into cars that claim to be 'performance' variants. In essence you buy AWD you get a pretty damn fast car for free. Now imagine every AWD CUV on the road driven by some cud chewing idiot can accelerate like a mustang GT or similar tier car.

There are going to be a lot more 'fast' cars out there even if they aren't super quick at triple digit speeds.

Who is considered an average Joe, though?

I'm no rich guy. I daily my Hellcat

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by Mike00

Everybody had dark horse pegged at $60k.

That of course was before Ford announced $1 billion hit this qtr on parts thanks to inflation. Cars about to get a massive hike.

Can’t believe I am saying this but hope the Fed goes big tomorrow and raises rates 100 or 150.

No, the solution is getting new car pricing under control. No one, aside from loaded folks, can afford a new car anymore. No wonder too many people are in debt & can't save $

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

No, the solution is getting new car pricing under control. No one, aside from loaded folks, can afford a new car anymore. No wonder too many people are in debt & can't save $

Just curious, have you seen what a house goes for these days...or for the last 15 years?

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

No, the solution is getting new car pricing under control. No one, aside from loaded folks, can afford a new car anymore. No wonder too many people are in debt & can't save $

How do you propose to do that? Some would probably call me loaded. Im still not buying cars right now because I think it’s fucking stupid. Now the 911 S doesn’t seem so stupid compared to how expensive cars have gotten.

I agree people are in debt but I don’t see they getting cars under control. And to top things off housing is a mess and rent will go up the next year even more because of it. So debt yes but how do you see stopping it?

Originally Posted by RM7

Just curious, have you seen what a house goes for these days...or for the last 15 years?

Sort of my thoughts. Housing + interest rates are so out of control I’m shifting some of my retirement away form more rentals and more into the markets. I think we’ve reached a limit in american affordability and do agree transportation and housing is a big portion of that debt problem - but I’m not sure how it gets better in future. So rents may go up but I don’t see how housing values will hence my shift.

[billnchristy]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I was all about the Coyote when I first heard of it because who doesn't want a high revving V8? The lack of revs (5400rpm redline) was what annoyed me when driving my buddy's 5.0 notchback back in college. That motor desperately motor heads and a cam to find some extra topend. The Coyote has a metallic, piecing sound above 4,000rpms. Then these guys add catbacks and headers and my god does it get bad. I can't believe people think the Coyotes sound good at that point. They sure as sound like they are going much faster. It's almost like a Nissan VQ motor with headers and an exhaust in terms volume and piercing sound.

I think the Voodoo sounds pretty good at full wail but talk about a motor that will vibrate your soul when revved above 6000rpms. Definitely not soothing, almost feels broken.

I was going to mention VQ-like but didn't want the hate, glad you said it.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by Mike00

How do you propose to do that? Some would probably call me loaded. Im still not buying cars right now because I think it’s fucking stupid. Now the 911 S doesn’t seem so stupid compared to how expensive cars have gotten.

I agree people are in debt but I don’t see they getting cars under control. And to top things off housing is a mess and rent will go up the next year even more because of it. So debt yes but how do you see stopping it?




Sort of my thoughts. Housing + interest rates are so out of control I’m shifting some of my retirement away form more rentals and more into the markets. I think we’ve reached a limit in american affordability and do agree transportation and housing is a big portion of that debt problem - but I’m not sure how it gets better in future. So rents may go up but I don’t see how housing values will hence my shift.

I wish I had a magic bullet. Some sort of regulation may help.

The AVERAGE car payment in the US is over $700. That is nuts.

Look at history, housing prices will come down.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

I wish I had a magic bullet. Some sort of regulation may help.

The AVERAGE car payment in the US is over $700. That is nuts.

Look at history, housing prices will come down.

2008? Not even comparable - completely different fundamentals in the market. You know what has changed though? % of down payments or cash offers. People are putting down more cash the last few months. housing is still selling in most regions. It’s going to take a lot more to stop the housing due to inventory. What will go up though is rent.

Only areas of the country that had insane increases (not the 30% most saw last 2 years) have been dropping at all.

Right now I don’t see how they lower inflation substantially so it feels like they are walking a tight rope of raising rates on th edge of major damage. Why? because jobs are still doing very well. As long as they continues it’s going to be tough to slow. Food prices and rent are just so painful right now.

And yes cars too new car payment is 725 like you said. And Used is over 500. It’s a lot. No argument.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by Mike00

2008? Not even comparable - completely different fundamentals in the market. You know what has changed though? % of down payments or cash offers. People are putting down more cash the last few months. housing is still selling in most regions. It’s going to take a lot more to stop the housing due to inventory. What will go up though is rent.

Only areas of the country that had insane increases (not the 30% most saw last 2 years) have been dropping at all.

Right now I don’t see how they lower inflation substantially so it feels like they are walking a tight rope of raising rates on th edge of major damage. Why? because jobs are still doing very well. As long as they continues it’s going to be tough to slow. Food prices and rent are just so painful right now.

And yes cars too new car payment is 725 like you said. And Used is over 500. It’s a lot. No argument.

Yes, 2008 is the only time the market ever corrected. Come on!! However, you think all these idiots that paid over MSRP for new cars or over new MSRP for a used car, overpaid by tens or hundreds of thousands on homes won't be foreclosed on or short sale or repo the cars? It's coming


Everything hurts the wallet right now. If something is not done, we will enter some sort of recession. Guaranteed.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Mike00

How do you propose to do that? Some would probably call me loaded. Im still not buying cars right now because I think it’s fucking stupid. Now the 911 S doesn’t seem so stupid compared to how expensive cars have gotten.

I agree people are in debt but I don’t see they getting cars under control. And to top things off housing is a mess and rent will go up the next year even more because of it. So debt yes but how do you see stopping it?

Sort of my thoughts. Housing + interest rates are so out of control I’m shifting some of my retirement away form more rentals and more into the markets. I think we’ve reached a limit in american affordability and do agree transportation and housing is a big portion of that debt problem - but I’m not sure how it gets better in future. So rents may go up but I don’t see how housing values will hence my shift.

I have 11 rentals of which 4 are new tenants in the past 6 months. The average increase in the monthly rent I have seen is about 15-20% increase. I never raise rent on good tenants. Have had a few for 6-7 years. But when people do leave, I get market value. Just sold a flipped house and yes, market is cooling. Still sold in 4 days for asking price. Just didn't have 6 people bidding. Lol

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

I have 11 rentals of which 4 are new tenants in the past 6 months. The average increase in the monthly rent I have seen is about 15-20% increase. I never raise rent on good tenants. Have had a few for 6-7 years. But when people do leave, I get market value. Just sold a flipped house and yes, market is cooling. Still sold in 4 days for asking price. Just didn't have 6 people bidding. Lol

Slowly, but surely cooling. I just saw another listing that wants all offers in less than a week after it went live. Hey clown, that ship has sailed...

We've been house shopping for a while. Not going to overpay and inventory is not plentiful. It's a shit show. At least we're not in a spot where we have to move. Patience always pays off in markets like this

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

My M235 has a long hood and short rear over hang. Size wise, it's similar in size to the Fox body coupe which to me was the best proportioned Stang ever made. The new Stang is nearly a foot longer and somehow 700lbs heavier.

As for sound, the DOHC 5.0s sound like hot garbage above 4,000 rpms compared to an LSX or 5.0 pushrod. Every Coyote owner seems to put an exhaust on that only makes the sound way worse. I don't deny the performance but the sound is not pleasing.

Too many of them pick an exhaust that makes them sound like a 80s pick up truck

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

I have 11 rentals of which 4 are new tenants in the past 6 months. The average increase in the monthly rent I have seen is about 15-20% increase. I never raise rent on good tenants. Have had a few for 6-7 years. But when people do leave, I get market value. Just sold a flipped house and yes, market is cooling. Still sold in 4 days for asking price. Just didn't have 6 people bidding. Lol

The cooling is relative. And all regional. Markets will slow down but inventory is still tight and it doesn’t look like we will see massive drops in a few parts of the country. Even in 08 it wasn’t a horrible correction for many areas.


As to the rental piece. I agree with you to a degree. I’ve had one tennant for 8 years though in her final year of a 2 year lease. She’s getting a raise this time of 15%. Still below my others in that area and they are going in hours.

Anyway I don’t see 5-10% as anything major in terms of corrections. And a fair amount look to be that. Unless the fed goes over board on inflation and breaks economy. But maybe somebody will tell them the inflation is primarily tight labor and supply chains. So hopefully they stop at some point.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

Slowly, but surely cooling. I just saw another listing that wants all offers in less than a week after it went live. Hey clown, that ship has sailed...

We've been house shopping for a while. Not going to overpay and inventory is not plentiful. It's a shit show. At least we're not in a spot where we have to move. Patience always pays off in markets like this

For sure!!! No need to be offering over or bidding. Unless you have to have a certain one

[jmack]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a4...ng-horsepower/

Power figures confirmed: 480hp for GT (+6hp with sport exhaust), 500hp for the Dark Horse

[XutvJet]

Can't wait for ear-piercing, dog crap sound sounding exhausts owners will be putting on these things.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Can't wait for ear-piercing, dog crap sound sounding exhausts owners will be putting on these things.

No worse than the awful burble tunes on 6-cylinder BMWs.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by M3WC

No worse than the awful burble tunes on 6-cylinder BMWs.

or the one on the late model Jetta in my neighborhood lol

I'm looking forward to seeing this new stang on the street, but not the stupid high MSRP

[supra93]

https://www.mustang7g.com/forums/thr...y-ford.157145/