Still want an EV? (NO POLITICS)

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Looking more and more like UK headed for EV catastrophe with governments apparently blind to overwhelming evidence that EV's are the wrong path and ignoring the obvious.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/2094...omic-disaster/

Interesting article.

[M5Rick]

Woman commenting after EV charging queue hell ''I'm wishing I stuck with petrol right now if I'm honest''
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/2087...de-of-conduct/

[Socal_R8]

I recently test drove a dual motor Model 3 long range and was blown away how fun that instant torque is and at your disposal as soon as you want it at any speed....and with the prices right now on nicely used examples , I'm sold





Granted, I live in probably one of the best places to have a Tesla in southern California due to the weather(no cold battery issues) ridiculous gas prices and plenty of super chargers everywhere...I also have a garage and solar for home charging which would keep the cost down even further...I would never need to use the super chargers unless I was on a road trip, which I only do about 3-4 times a year and could use one of my gas powered cars if wanted.

I can see for some people in different regions that didn't have home charging and lack of infrastructure they wouldn't be ideal though.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

I’m having a hard deciding between a 2021 X7 m50i fully loaded I just found or ordering a Rivian R1S. What to do…what to do? I am sure the Rivian would be much more reliable since it has less moving parts. The unfortunate is the Rivian not having CarPlay and proper door bins that the Bimmer has done well. Has anyone compared the seat comfort of the Rivian compared to the X5 or X7 merino package or even the Bimmer Vernasca seats?

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

.I also have a garage and solar for home charging which would keep the cost down even further..

Something to consider: most with home solar aren't able to thoroughly capitalize on it for EV charging. If you work away from home and during the day, that leaves you charging at night when there is little or no solar. Your costs are then subject to power company rate schemes and price changes. The two biggest power utilities in my area just raised rates 10% & 15% because of all the costs associated with ramping up capacity and related reliability that comes with that. This is going to get worse as EV's push the load imbalance further.

So-Cal power is already expensive, and setup to get a lot more expensive too as more switch to EV, which will push the cost even faster because more will load up the night time load and the time of day pricing in that time band will get worse because there is no nighttime solar. It's almost all carbon generation at night. Know the cost, and anticipate the increase in your analysis. Residential power only costs $.064 KWH where I live, and no time-of-day schemes, but my utility is fed by over 99% hydro. It's probably cheaper for me than most to own an EV, and solar here is pretty limited.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Something to consider: most with home solar aren't able to thoroughly capitalize on it for EV charging. If you work away from home and during the day, that leaves you charging at night when there is little or no solar. Your costs are then subject to power company rate schemes and price changes. The two biggest power utilities in my area just raised rates 10% & 15% because of all the costs associated with ramping up capacity and related reliability that comes with that. This is going to get worse as EV's push the load imbalance further.

So-Cal power is already expensive, and setup to get a lot more expensive too as more switch to EV, which will push the cost even faster because more will load up the night time load and the time of day pricing in that time band will get worse because there is no nighttime solar. It's almost all carbon generation at night. Know the cost, and anticipate the increase in your analysis. Residential power only costs $.064 KWH where I live, and no time-of-day schemes, but my utility is fed by over 99% hydro. It's probably cheaper for me than most to own an EV, and solar here is pretty limited.

doesn't really work like that with solar...at least here

how it works is my solar panels generate electricity...usually more than what we use and the electric company than gives you a credit on what your panels produced.... spring and summer usually get huge credits, then the winter starts to use more than produce due to where the sun is in the sky and using more lights and heat etc.... so typically at the end of the year I usually either owe about $50 or I have a $50 credit from Edison

we went solar years ago and was best thing we ever did when it comes to saving money

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

doesn't really work like that with solar...at least here

how it works is my solar panels generate electricity...usually more than what we use and the electric company than gives you a credit on what your panels produced.... spring and summer usually get huge credits, then the winter starts to use more than produce due to where the sun is in the sky and using more lights and heat etc.... so typically at the end of the year I usually either owe about $50 or I have a $50 credit from Edison

we went solar years ago and was best thing we ever did when it comes to saving money

So your use of electricity to charge your EV and your power generated from your solar system are separated. You are selling power you aren't using during the day, and having to buy someone else's power when you charge at night. When you add an EV load to the equation that is a lot of load , it will become an unbalanced relationship. Having solar doesn't fix that. Socal is going to become saturated with Solar soon at this rate. The value of the power you are selling will drop, and the cost of "someone else's power" at night will increase.

Not trying to argue, just pointing out that the rationale for "solar will solve the EV load" is not a very good position now, and will be even worse in the long run. It still requires "someone else" to make the power that goes into your EV. It is this imbalance that will shift the value of what you sell vs what you buy. Texas has a lot of wind generation, there have been numerous times where the power grid charged people to generate (negative value) because the grid became unbalanced : supply vs. load. The value of wind energy during those events was a negative number. Socal solar is headed in this direction, and in most cases the utilities have the right to refuse to buy your power, or to charge you a fee for making it.

[The-Traveler]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Hybrids really seem like the realistic answer for the next 15-20 years. Let the battery technology get better, more power stations, improve the grid..........but we all know that's reasonable so it won't happen.

I have a 2018 530e (PHEV) and if I don't use heating or cooling for the short drive, I can get around 25km winter, and 30km summer. If I run HVAC then it's 15-20km all year round. By preconditioning the vehicle I generally don't have to use HVAC for a short drive.

Charging at home and charging for free (generally) at the stores makes it worth while. Most errands are within the 20km range one way, and so it's the same as owning an EV for me. But the best part is, if the charger doesn't work or if I'm going cross-country then I don't have to plug it in, I can just use gasoline.

If BMW could build a nice PHEV with double this range I don't see a reason to ever purchase an EV because other than road-trips there's no damn difference other than the PHEV having fewer headaches.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

So your use of electricity to charge your EV and your power generated from your solar system are separated. You are selling power you aren't using during the day, and having to buy someone else's power when you charge at night. When you add an EV load to the equation that is a lot of load , it will become an unbalanced relationship. Having solar doesn't fix that. Socal is going to become saturated with Solar soon at this rate. The value of the power you are selling will drop, and the cost of "someone else's power" at night will increase.

Not trying to argue, just pointing out that the rationale for "solar will solve the EV load" is not a very good position now, and will be even worse in the long run. It still requires "someone else" to make the power that goes into your EV. It is this imbalance that will shift the value of what you sell vs what you buy. Texas has a lot of wind generation, there have been numerous times where the power grid charged people to generate (negative value) because the grid became unbalanced : supply vs. load. The value of wind energy during those events was a negative number. Socal solar is headed in this direction, and in most cases the utilities have the right to refuse to buy your power, or to charge you a fee for making it.

I don't think you get what I'm saying...I'm simply saying since I have solar my electric bills are very low if any...charging an EV in the dead of night at low peak hours isn't going to effect me much...My neighbor has two EV's and says his bills didn't go up dramatically and he doesn't even have solar....so compared to the $4.50 a gal of gas around here it would be nice not to spend $70-100 every time I fill up


btw, can't compare California to Texas when it comes to utilities ...Texas is notorious for having some of the shadiest energy companies in the US

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

I don't think you get what I'm saying...I'm simply saying since I have solar my electric bills are very low if any...charging an EV in the dead of night at low peak hours isn't going to effect me much...My neighbor has two EV's and says his bills didn't go up dramatically and he doesn't even have solar....so compared to the $4.50 a gal of gas around here it would be nice not to spend $70-100 every time I fill up


btw, can't compare California to Texas when it comes to utilities ...Texas is notorious for having some of the shadiest energy companies in the US

I'm curious about the cost to install vs return on investment. We were looking at doing solar but the upfront cost is $40K+ CAD, that takes a very long time to recover at about $2400 a year usage now.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

I'm curious about the cost to install vs return on investment. We were looking at doing solar but the upfront cost is $40K+ CAD, that takes a very long time to recover at about $2400 a year usage now.

we got lucky several years ago...we did a $0 20 year lease.

they came out and put a 27 panel system on our 3250 sq ft home which was about a $40,000 system and I didn't pay one cent.

We now pay SunRun a set fee payment at much lower than our old regular electric bill from Edison which goes up 2% a year and what ever we use from Edison which is give or take $50 a year ...Not sure if they still offer the same deals anymore these days, but it has saved us a lot of money since we did it almost 10 years ago....It's sunny here about 300 days a year so it's worked out great for us

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

I don't think you get what I'm saying...I'm simply saying since I have solar my electric bills are very low if any...charging an EV in the dead of night at low peak hours isn't going to effect me much...My neighbor has two EV's and says his bills didn't go up dramatically and he doesn't even have solar....so compared to the $4.50 a gal of gas around here it would be nice not to spend $70-100 every time I fill up

Expect the cost of off peak to go up, and the value of what you are selling to go down.

Just like gas prices, power is a commodity. Its pricing is dictated by market conditions. The market is changing rapidly.

The devaluation of residential solar generation has already begun, and has been codified in the law:

California Decreases Value of Home Solar Energy to the Grid
https://www.independent.com/2022/12/...y-to-the-grid/

The California Public Utilities Commission today overhauled the state’s rooftop solar regulations, reducing payments to homeowners for excess power
https://calmatters.org/environment/2...es-overhauled/

btw, can't compare California to Texas when it comes to utilities ...Texas is notorious for having some of the shadiest energy companies in the US

I'm not comparing grids, I'm comparing supply/demand economic realities. When you are selling what everyone is selling, and buying what everyone is buying, you get economically shafted coming and going. This fact doesn't care where you live.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

we got lucky several years ago...we did a $0 20 year lease.

they came out and put a 27 panel system on our 3250 sq ft home which was about a $40,000 system and I didn't pay one cent.

We now pay SunRun a set fee payment at much lower than our old regular electric bill from Edison which goes up 2% a year and what ever we use from Edison which is give or take $50 a year ...Not sure if they still offer the same deals anymore these days, but it has saved us a lot of money since we did it almost 10 years ago....It's sunny here about 300 days a year so it's worked out great for us

That's great, but not the reality for most. We elected to go for a heat pump that I'm told runs for about $1 a day (we'll see) and for the most part will relieve us of using propane to heat on most except the colder days, below -10C, if propane gets much more expensive the heat pump can be adjusted to accommodate -20C. I frankly don't see solar or wind being a viable solution either on a residential or industrial scale for a great many places based on weather and geography.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Expect the cost of off peak to go up, and the value of what you are selling to go down.

Just like gas prices, power is a commodity. Its pricing is dictated by market conditions. The market is changing rapidly.

The devaluation of residential solar generation has already begun, and has been codified in the law:

California Decreases Value of Home Solar Energy to the Grid
https://www.independent.com/2022/12/...y-to-the-grid/

The California Public Utilities Commission today overhauled the state’s rooftop solar regulations, reducing payments to homeowners for excess power
https://calmatters.org/environment/2...es-overhauled/



I'm not comparing grids, I'm comparing supply/demand economic realities. When you are selling what everyone is selling, and buying what everyone is buying, you get economically shafted coming and going. This fact doesn't care where you live.

yeah, things got ugly here recently when it came to solar vs the electric companies..luckily they protected the existing solar customers and put new rules in for new customers. which is pretty messed up and will kill the solar companies and a lot of jobs unless they somehow win in a court battle

https://calmatters.org/environment/2...es-overhauled/

at the end of the day, I'm still very happy with solar and how much it has saved us... with two AC units and a pool we were getting $500 bills in the hot days of summer before we went solar.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by Angelo1

I’m having a hard deciding between a 2021 X7 m50i fully loaded I just found or ordering a Rivian R1S. What to do…what to do? I am sure the Rivian would be much more reliable since it has less moving parts. The unfortunate is the Rivian not having CarPlay and proper door bins that the Bimmer has done well. Has anyone compared the seat comfort of the Rivian compared to the X5 or X7 merino package or even the Bimmer Vernasca seats?

I drove an R1T yesterday, it was nice. Can't say I felt "luxury". I don't consider a Rivian a luxury vehicle in the same sense as an X7, ignoring powertrain. An X7 with V8 is nothing at all like a startup company EV regardless of price point.

The best thing Rivians have going for them in my view is appearance. I do like the exterior and interior design aesthetics. They are nothing special as far as EVs go in terms of battery life, battery technology or drivetrain technology. It's all me-too stuff like any other EV. Not unique and not compelling. They have a big iPad stuck to the instrument panel, and a smaller one in front of the steering wheel. Idiotic Tesla copycat that MB has also followed. I think the BMW CEO is predicting "big screens" to soon be a thing of the past. Thankfully.

EVs skimp everywhere they can (for example door bins) to minimize weight. A clear example of this is in the interior. The R1T has vegan leather, what a joke. Vinyl is lighter than real leather, for example as you indicated a preference for Merino or Vernasca.

I was impressed to see 4 corner air suspension on the R1T. Makes for a nice ride but with a cost. Weight is likely neutral because they are using aluminum suspension components compared with steel springs and solid (heavy) beam rear axle. Given the industry's travails with air suspension through the years, one can only imagine how a startup company's air ride will fare.

My wife has Vernasca in her G01. It looks nice and smells nice. It is comfortable over day-long (8 hrs) drives. However it is not as nice as the standard leather in my Cayenne, which is more supple and luxurious feeling. I think the issue is not the Vernasca, but that the BMW sport seats in the G01 xDrive are not deeply cushioned and are dimensionally somewhat small. Compared to, for example, standard seats in a W166 MB GLE or the 9Y0 Cayenne.

No CarPlay is a joke also. I don't use CarPlay but everyone in my family does. Rivian failed on that one, also the vinyl-only interior.

In summary, X7 M50i vs R1S is apples vs oranges. If you are considering a V8 you will be sorely disappointed with the beta product which is the R1S.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by chassis

The best thing Rivians have going for them in my view is appearance. I do like the exterior and interior design aesthetics. They are nothing special as far as EVs go in terms of battery life, battery technology or drivetrain technology. It's all me-too stuff like any other EV.

Actually their EV offerings are by far the most unique in EV market. They are the only EV company selling quad motor EVs, besides Rimac and $2mill+ Nevera. Quad motor is the future of awd vehicles, it will have almost endless possibilities being able to control torque individually per wheel. No one else platform and drivetrain is anywhere near them to be honest.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Actually their EV offerings are by far the most unique in EV market. They are the only EV company selling quad motor EVs, besides Rimac and $2mill+ Nevera. Quad motor is the future of awd vehicles, it will have almost endless possibilities being able to control torque individually per wheel. No one else platform and drivetrain is anywhere near them to be honest.

Quad motors are good medicine, agree. The Lordstown Endurance has 4x wheel motors. Have a read about the BYD U8 SUV.

[Cos270]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rCywUzKJs30

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Cos270

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rCywUzKJs30

Brilliant video. He says what most of us already knew.

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

yeah, things got ugly here recently when it came to solar vs the electric companies..luckily they protected the existing solar customers and put new rules in for new customers. which is pretty messed up and will kill the solar companies and a lot of jobs unless they somehow win in a court battle

https://calmatters.org/environment/2...es-overhauled/

at the end of the day, I'm still very happy with solar and how much it has saved us... with two AC units and a pool we were getting $500 bills in the hot days of summer before we went solar.

This bums me out as I was thinking of getting solar. I hate the idea of tearing up the desert to put industrial scale solar and transmission lines in, when every house can just be self-sufficient. The new policy is just to insure profits for PG&E/SCE.

[eluded]

Originally Posted by Soul_Glo

Batteries still aren’t getting lighter and EV’s are getting heavier. It remains a concern for road safety. Some computer modelling shows that an EV can crush a smaller vehicle due to it’s heft in an auto accident.

MV^2

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/11/11484...s-safety-risks

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Cos270

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rCywUzKJs30

UK thankfully separated from EU so they can whistle for their snowflake fuel vs EV sale quotas.