How many of you have gone to college? Was it worth it?

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by strohw

Perhaps I'm looking at this a bit different than most of the posters here that are giving their opinion based on their experiences. My response is going to be a logical assertion.

If the career you want to pursue requires a degree to either be interviewed or hired then you need a degree. If you are able to get on the job experience in the career path you want without a degree then one is not required.

You're correct. It's unfortunate that in most cases the degree requirement is just laziness on the part of HR and hiring managers, allowing them to shrink the pool of applicants by some arbitrary means and thereby make their jobs easier. They end up overlooking non-degreed candidates who might be more effective in the role.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

You're correct. It's unfortunate that in most cases the degree requirement is just laziness on the part of HR and hiring managers, allowing them to shrink the pool of applicants by some arbitrary means and thereby make their jobs easier. They end up overlooking non-degreed candidates who might be more effective in the role.

If I had two candidates who were equally qualified, and potentially equally effective, but one had a degree and the other didn't... I'd choose the one who took it upon themselves to put in the extra years of schooling to make sure they had the best chance at doing their job.

[King Rudi]

Originally Posted by jmg

If I had two candidates who were equally qualified, and potentially equally effective, but one had a degree and the other didn't... I'd choose the one who took it upon themselves to put in the extra years of schooling to make sure they had the best chance at doing their job.

This is valid, however; in the cases that I've seen in this scenario, usually about 6-10 months later, people like me are called in to interview for the position that the educated guy couldn't figure out. Just because the guy with the degree has the degree, doesn't mean he'll do shit once he gets started on the job. I see this more often than not. Two years experience in related field > Four year degree all day long.

We just hired a freshly certified electrician. Last week I had to leave my office, strap on a body harness, train him on how to use a scissor lift and then teach him how to pull cable. Poor guy had no clue what a push-pole or what a service loop is. I ended up in the position I'm in, from getting my hands dirty. I always crack up at guys who get educated to get their hands dirty and then don't want to.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by jmg

If I had two candidates who were equally qualified, and potentially equally effective, but one had a degree and the other didn't... I'd choose the one who took it upon themselves to put in the extra years of schooling to make sure they had the best chance at doing their job.

I probably would too. It says something about someone that they can take on a big chunk of work and see it through to completion. But the non-degree candidates are often discarded without a look in the big HR departments and in the ATS's (Applicant Tracking Systems).

[Bunnny]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

I went to college back when college was a place where smart kids like me got to hone their intellects to a fine edge, so that they could then apply them to real-world problems.

Nowadays college is the very opposite of that. It's a cesspool of moral relativism, Post-Modern indoctrination, and the complete rejection of the very notion of truth.

I no longer hire college graduates - ever - unless a particular candidate presents him/herself as a compelling exception. I run a company which produces software, which is nothing more than building useful and well-thought-out things out of logical Lego blocks, with rigorous attention to detail and business logic. I need people with clear heads who accept no dogma and question everything. The notion that "We do things this way, because this is the way we do things" is an abomination in our business model.

University graduates are generally ill-suited to our operations. They've been indoctrinated to conform. I have zero respect for someone who thinks they should conform to my ideas merely because I'm the boss. Someone who's got balls enough to say to me "Yeah, well that's a horseshit idea because..." instantly has my attention.

I agree. Even in the telecom industry, we would pick people who did not have schooling over people who had years of telecommunications schooling.
Why? Because we would have to retrain these people out of school as they were taught industry standard, but not company standard. And they would make more mistakes than a 'fresh' mind that is being taught the first time.
So it's all they know by default. We provided the training in-house, so you can still apply for the job without having to go through the school (or pay the money!). Some people were obviously not cut out for the job, but intensive training and skill testing sorts that out really quick.

[M3insf]

Since your parents are Asian parents, just going to college is not enough. You must get a PhD or a medical degree. Anything short of that and you are a failure 😀.

I was the lazy one in my family, just got an EE degree. All my siblings have graduate degrees. I would recommend going to college. I had a pretty decent job working as a technician and was making more money than most 4 year degree jobs, but I when back to college to finish my EE degree and I don’t regret it a bit. Definitely made a huge difference in income and opened more doors.

[Mosaud1998]

Originally Posted by M3insf

Since your parents are Asian parents, just going to college is not enough. You must get a PhD or a medical degree. Anything short of that and you are a failure 😀.

I was the lazy one in my family, just got an EE degree. All my siblings have graduate degrees. I would recommend going to college. I had a pretty decent job working as a technician and was making more money than most 4 year degree jobs, but I when back to college to finish my EE degree and I don’t regret it a bit. Definitely made a huge difference in income and opened more doors.

LMAO Nah, they're fine with my just getting my bachelor's since I skipped a year of high school (I had a transplant and was out of school for a year). So, I guess they cut m some slack

[sygazelle]

A lot of successful people never went to college. Conversely, a lot of well-educated people are not successful. So, I'd say there is no sure thing either way.

For me personally, going to college was totally worth it and it has paid off well. I took 10 years to get a BS in Business and an MBA. I could have gotten loans and gone full time and done it in 6 or 7 years. But, I worked almost full time and did the whole thing on my own with no student loans or debt to repay. My company offered tuition reimbursement and I took advantage of that benefit which helped.

In college, I learned things and made connections that have helped me. So, I'd say it was totally worth the effort. My wife tells me I would have found a way to succeed regardless, but who knows for sure. All I can say is I have no regrets putting in the effort and spending the money. Doing it over, I wouldn't have changed a thing.

[jonincolorado]

Yes, definitely. Why? The average person changes careers 9 times in their life. You're profoundly successful for your age. Don't ever go to college, as I did, an ivy league one, actually, to please anyone else as you won't make it. It's the perfect time, at 22, to go/return to college, i.e. station in life. The people you meet will more than compensate for the loss of momentum. Believe it or not, you might well end up in a totally different field, such as auto mechanical engineering, or union negotiation /auto, high level auto design etc., and will need/want to even pursue a masters degree. Your major isn't critical, believe it or not, not at the undergraduate level. Skills, such as reading, writing, listening, vocabulary, speaking, etc. and learning your strengths, interacting with other students, and the like, are what matters. Major in what interests you as you have an easy income way-out, selling cars, something to fall back on. But always keep the grad school door open. I did. It really paid off for me, for what it's worth. The friendships and contacts are everything. Americans, myself included, view career as advancing our finances or station in life. Historically, Americans were unique as at Harvard and elsewhere, the entire focus at the turn of the century and earlier, was focused on how we can be a blessing to others, to use God's gifts to bless others uniquely. The blessing always follows this. There's no sin or shortfall in sales. It's just that at your age you might not be aware of what else you would be more interested in doing long term. Sorry for rambling.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

I'm curious as to the "skills" of which you speak. Do tell.

I’ll tell you a fun skill I learned in College I use quite often, to argue with the uneducated on this forum. Most of my studies were engineering an science, but all my electives were Philosophy and Poli Sci. So when I see people post about BLM, or any of our past presidents being Marxist, I -in a polite and eloquent way - explain to them the absurdity of that notion. Conversation ends very abruptly.

Turns out very few people have an understanding of Marxism. Not to mention being able to point out differences between communism and socialism. No one reads Karl Marx for fun, only as part of studies in modern political theory. But the truth is the truth. Same applies for logical reasoning, critical thinking, and applying science to solve every day problems.

And the people I hire have to have a Bachelor of Science in Engineering, and a M.S. is preferred. We only accept Electrical, Mechanical, Computer, Automotive or Aerospace degrees.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I’ll tell you a fun skill I learned in College I use quite often, to argue with the uneducated on this forum. Most of my studies were engineering an science, but all my electives were Philosophy and Poli Sci. So when I see people post about BLM, or any of our past presidents being Marxist, I -in a polite and eloquent way - explain to them the absurdity of that notion. Conversation ends very abruptly.

Turns out very few people have an understanding of Marxism. Not to mention being able to point out differences between communism and socialism. No one reads Karl Marx for fun, only as part of studies in modern political theory. But the truth is the truth. Same applies for logical reasoning, critical thinking, and applying science to solve every day problems.

And the people I hire have to have a Bachelor of Science in Engineering, and a M.S. is preferred. We only accept Electrical, Mechanical, Computer, Automotive or Aerospace degrees.

I've got a consultant working for me who only 5 or 6 years ago was a carpenter with 15 years experience. He went to one of the better boot camps in our area and had 4 years' experience under his belt when I interviewed him. Not the usual 6-8 years that I usually target, but he came very highly recommended. He's never set foot on a college campus. I'm always looking for promising career-switchers.

He's a fantastic problem-solver and a natural at design, and produces really clean code. Lots of it. And he's been delighting the same medical device manufacturing client for over a year. I reviewed every line of code he wrote for his first 6 months, and he quickly "got it" when I showed him useful patterns and more efficient or elegant ways of accomplishing things.

I don't give a rat's hindquarters about his comprehension of political ideologies, or his ability to look at a bunch of forum posts and sift out the wankers from the wizards. He hasn't studied Aristotelian logic, I'm guessing, but he intuitively grasps its concepts. I'm happy for him on a personal level that he didn't have to fend off an ideological lobotomy in order to build a very promising new career. I hired him to do a job, and he does it well. He can read Das Kapital on his own time if he likes.

[hubbahubba]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

I've got a consultant working for me who only 5 or 6 years ago was a carpenter with 15 years experience. He went to one of the better boot camps in our area and had 4 years' experience under his belt when I interviewed him. Not the usual 6-8 years that I usually target, but he came very highly recommended. He's never set foot on a college campus. I'm always looking for promising career-switchers.

He's a fantastic problem-solver and a natural at design, and produces really clean code. Lots of it. And he's been delighting the same medical device manufacturing client for over a year. I reviewed every line of code he wrote for his first 6 months, and he quickly "got it" when I showed him useful patterns and more efficient or elegant ways of accomplishing things.

I don't give a rat's hindquarters about his comprehension of political ideologies, or his ability to look at a bunch of forum posts and sift out the wankers from the wizards. He hasn't studied Aristotelian logic, I'm guessing, but he intuitively grasps its concepts. I'm happy for him on a personal level that he didn't have to fend off an ideological lobotomy in order to build a very promising new career. I hired him to do a job, and he does it well. He can read Das Kapital on his own time if he likes.

Carpenters not only have to know their trade, but all the others, too. If they don't plan for the other guys work, his own work get's trashed by the other guy (talking to you sparky, plumber, tin bender) when he goes in after and does his bit, leaving the carpenter to figure out how to put his own work back together around the other guys completed work. I was a carpenter for 14 years total, starting at 16 years old. I worked my way *mostly* through college doing the trade, (3-1/2 years), until I had the opportunity to do what I thought I wanted to do, (stock broker), and quit school. Did that 4-1/2 years and hated it, went back to building stuff and never looked back. When I was 34 I got into construction management, and had the same problems of figuring our how to clean up the mess, tack on another 15 years of that. I value very much the friendships I built in college, and Spanish. Other than that, meh... I have built some very cool, some even world class buildings and homes, met many fantastic people, and wouldn't trade my life for anybody's, degree or not. Thanks for posting.

[longm1985]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I’ll tell you a fun skill I learned in College I use quite often, to argue with the uneducated on this forum. Most of my studies were engineering an science, but all my electives were Philosophy and Poli Sci. So when I see people post about BLM, or any of our past presidents being Marxist, I -in a polite and eloquent way - explain to them the absurdity of that notion. Conversation ends very abruptly.

Turns out very few people have an understanding of Marxism. Not to mention being able to point out differences between communism and socialism. No one reads Karl Marx for fun, only as part of studies in modern political theory. But the truth is the truth. Same applies for logical reasoning, critical thinking, and applying science to solve every day problems.

It's baffling how people can make such blanket statements with absolute certainty about something that they've only heard vaguely referenced by pundits. I'm not taking a side here, for the record, as I don't want an incoming $h1tstorm (don't know this crowd well enough). It's a phenomenon that apparently transcends leanings on the spectrum, and applies to a multitude of topics. In fact, it can apply to almost anything.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I’ll tell you a fun skill I learned in College I use quite often, to argue with the uneducated on this forum. Most of my studies were engineering an science, but all my electives were Philosophy and Poli Sci. So when I see people post about BLM, or any of our past presidents being Marxist, I -in a polite and eloquent way - explain to them the absurdity of that notion. Conversation ends very abruptly.

Turns out very few people have an understanding of Marxism. Not to mention being able to point out differences between communism and socialism. No one reads Karl Marx for fun, only as part of studies in modern political theory. But the truth is the truth. Same applies for logical reasoning, critical thinking, and applying science to solve every day problems.

And the people I hire have to have a Bachelor of Science in Engineering, and a M.S. is preferred. We only accept Electrical, Mechanical, Computer, Automotive or Aerospace degrees.

I was never into political science and I avoided those elective classes, but I can clearly see in certain corners of the internet, this forum included, where a class in philosophy would end many frustrating debates. I bet most people think philosophy 101 is memorizing quotes from Socrates.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by hubbahubba

Carpenters not only have to know their trade, but all the others, too. If they don't plan for the other guys work, his own work get's trashed by the other guy (talking to you sparky, plumber, tin bender) when he goes in after and does his bit, leaving the carpenter to figure out how to put his own work back together around the other guys completed work. I was a carpenter for 14 years total, starting at 16 years old. I worked my way *mostly* through college doing the trade, (3-1/2 years), until I had the opportunity to do what I thought I wanted to do, (stock broker), and quit school. Did that 4-1/2 years and hated it, went back to building stuff and never looked back. When I was 34 I got into construction management, and had the same problems of figuring our how to clean up the mess, tack on another 15 years of that. I value very much the friendships I built in college, and Spanish. Other than that, meh... I have built some very cool, some even world class buildings and homes, met many fantastic people, and wouldn't trade my life for anybody's, degree or not. Thanks for posting.

About 30 years ago, in my previous career as a truck driver delivering lumber, I pulled onto a site of one of our high-end home builder customers. They were building a pretty unique and ambitious house. I watched the lead carpenter, using just a framing square and a tape measure and a carpenter's pencil, call out the cuts for the rafters of the roof of an elliptical turret. The sawyer on the ground was making the cuts and pitching the rafters up to the guys on the scaffold who then nailed everything in place. It was like watching Yo-Yo Ma leading a string quartet. A few years later I watched him lay out the top and bottom plates for a huge, snake-y, curving exterior wall, using multiple anchor points deep in the interior of the house.

We're still friends to this day. He taught me how to build a masonry shower pan for a walk-in shower I was doing on my house back in about '05. We have coffee most Saturday mornings. He's an incredible and versatile talent and an inspiration. He's become a model or ideal of sorts, as an example of the qualities I look for in the non-traditional and career-switching candidates who are a primary focus of my recruitment process. I even have a criteria called "the Nick factor." Thank you, Nick.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by jmg

I was never into political science and I avoided those elective classes, but I can clearly see in certain corners of the internet, this forum included, where a class in philosophy would end many frustrating debates. I bet most people think philosophy 101 is memorizing quotes from Socrates.

No course of study, in Philosophy or any other subject, can make a "happy family" out of people of disparate viewpoints who are solemnly wedded to competing ideologies and whose self-concepts are inseparable from said ideologies.

[hubbahubba]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

About 30 years ago, in my previous career as a truck driver delivering lumber, I pulled onto a site of one of our high-end home builder customers. They were building a pretty unique and ambitious house. I watched the lead carpenter, using just a framing square and a tape measure and a carpenter's pencil, call out the cuts for the rafters of the roof of an elliptical turret. The sawyer on the ground was making the cuts and pitching the rafters up to the guys on the scaffold who then nailed everything in place. It was like watching Yo-Yo Ma leading a string quartet. A few years later I watched him lay out the top and bottom plates for a huge, snake-y, curving exterior wall, using multiple anchor points deep in the interior of the house.

We're still friends to this day. He taught me how to build a masonry shower pan for a walk-in shower I was doing on my house back in about '05. We have coffee most Saturday mornings. He's an incredible and versatile talent and an inspiration. He's become a model or ideal of sorts, as an example of the qualities I look for in the non-traditional and career-switching candidates who are a primary focus of my recruitment process. I even have a criteria called "the Nick factor." Thank you, Nick.

Stop it, yer making me hot...

[M_Six]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

About 30 years ago, in my previous career as a truck driver delivering lumber, I pulled onto a site of one of our high-end home builder customers. They were building a pretty unique and ambitious house. I watched the lead carpenter, using just a framing square and a tape measure and a carpenter's pencil, call out the cuts for the rafters of the roof of an elliptical turret. The sawyer on the ground was making the cuts and pitching the rafters up to the guys on the scaffold who then nailed everything in place. It was like watching Yo-Yo Ma leading a string quartet. A few years later I watched him lay out the top and bottom plates for a huge, snake-y, curving exterior wall, using multiple anchor points deep in the interior of the house.

We're still friends to this day. He taught me how to build a masonry shower pan for a walk-in shower I was doing on my house back in about '05. We have coffee most Saturday mornings. He's an incredible and versatile talent and an inspiration. He's become a model or ideal of sorts, as an example of the qualities I look for in the non-traditional and career-switching candidates who are a primary focus of my recruitment process. I even have a criteria called "the Nick factor." Thank you, Nick.

I once built remediation systems for an environmental engineering firm. Learning to correctly bend electrical conduit was a tough nut for me. And that was just for one single conduit. We had a contract to run a huge remediation site in CT. That site had a large building with four enormous carbon filters in it. The electrician who wired that site had racks of perfectly parallel conduits running all over the building. I would stand there staring up at the beauty of those dozen or so parallel conduits and marvel at the skill needed to produce them. It really is artwork. It's a talent, just like painting or sculpting. You cannot teach that in a class. It takes years of practice, like playing the violin or piano.

That said, I could not have done that job if I had not gone to college. I gained the environmental engineering knowledge I needed to do that job in school. I was able to make immediate and substantial contributions to that firm right out of school because of what I had learned in school. So it all depends on your field of study. Some knowledge is more quickly gained in a classroom environment and some is pure hands-on experience. One size does not fit all.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I’ll tell you a fun skill I learned in College I use quite often, to argue with the uneducated on this forum. Most of my studies were engineering an science, but all my electives were Philosophy and Poli Sci. So when I see people post about BLM, or any of our past presidents being Marxist, I -in a polite and eloquent way - explain to them the absurdity of that notion. Conversation ends very abruptly.

Turns out very few people have an understanding of Marxism. Not to mention being able to point out differences between communism and socialism. No one reads Karl Marx for fun, only as part of studies in modern political theory. But the truth is the truth. Same applies for logical reasoning, critical thinking, and applying science to solve every day problems.

And the people I hire have to have a Bachelor of Science in Engineering, and a M.S. is preferred. We only accept Electrical, Mechanical, Computer, Automotive or Aerospace degrees.

We all bow our heads in reverence to you, a true Renaissance man. I believe I speak for many others hereabouts when I offer my deepest thanks to you for correcting our careless and errant assertions and our ill-considered theorems about the way things work. We're deeply sorrowful for having offered arguments which - though logically and factually sound - gave you pause. What were we thinking? I ask this of myself, as I can imagine so many others have done. We, the uneducated, are counting on you to guide and correct us. Don't let us down.

[pennsiveguy]

Originally Posted by M_Six

I once built remediation systems for an environmental engineering firm. Learning to correctly bend electrical conduit was a tough nut for me. And that was just for one single conduit. We had a contract to run a huge remediation site in CT. That site had a large building with four enormous carbon filters in it. The electrician who wired that site had racks of perfectly parallel conduits running all over the building. I would stand there staring up at the beauty of those dozen or so parallel conduits and marvel at the skill needed to produce them. It really is artwork. It's a talent, just like painting or sculpting. You cannot teach that in a class. It takes years of practice, like playing the violin or piano.

That said, I could not have done that job if I had not gone to college. I gained the environmental engineering knowledge I needed to do that job in school. I was able to make immediate and substantial contributions to that firm right out of school because of what I had learned in school. So it all depends on your field of study. Some knowledge is more quickly gained in a classroom environment and some is pure hands-on experience. One size does not fit all.

I learned some valuable things in college too.

I learned computer science at the "bit level," although in the context in which I currently practice my craft, it's roughly equivalent to having gone through medical school and an OB-GYN specialist internship as preparation for being a porn movie "stunt dick."

I learned about algorithm development and optimization and "Big-O" notation in great detail. I can recite most of the Gang-Of-Four patterns in my sleep, hung-over, or hammered. I learned file and data structures from the guy who taught the course at MIT.

But by far the most important piece of my craft is empathy. It's the thing most absent from so much software today. That's a separate soapbox that I'll save for another post.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by pennsiveguy

We all bow our heads in reverence to you, a true Renaissance man. I believe I speak for many others hereabouts when I offer my deepest thanks to you for correcting our careless and errant assertions and our ill-considered theorems about the way things work. We're deeply sorrowful for having offered arguments which - though logically and factually sound - gave you pause. What were we thinking? I ask this of myself, as I can imagine so many others have done. We, the uneducated, are counting on you to guide and correct us. Don't let us down.

--

[Fined]

I did not. I am glad I did not waste my time or efforts. I've stayed in the field I naturally gravitated towards.

My career paid for my 911 GTS track car, my M2 daily, and a fully paid relocation from the US to Germany. The company who hired me even paid to ship the 911 over. I got to choose where I live, I work from home (nothing to do with COVID).. I'm 2 hours from Spa Francorchamps and 2 hours from the 'Ring. I've only gotten out to Spa so far, the M2 did great there!

With only a high school diploma and staying determined. I might study and get a degree here, but if I do it will be for nearly free. I may not, as things have been going insanely well without it.

I wanted to come here because I love cars and I wanted to experience the tracks in my own cars whenever I want, not just for European delivery. So I did it.