Ford Debuts 7th-Generation S650 Mustang and New Dark Horse Performance Series

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

Then it wouldn't look like a Mustang, let alone a pony car.

Can you imagine a Mustang with the 2-Series proportions? Yikes. Every Mustang has had a long hood and short rear decklid. That's where the majority of your space is going.

At least it'll sound better than anything in the price bracket.

My M235 has a long hood and short rear over hang. Size wise, it's similar in size to the Fox body coupe which to me was the best proportioned Stang ever made. The new Stang is nearly a foot longer and somehow 700lbs heavier.

As for sound, the DOHC 5.0s sound like hot garbage above 4,000 rpms compared to an LSX or 5.0 pushrod. Every Coyote owner seems to put an exhaust on that only makes the sound way worse. I don't deny the performance but the sound is not pleasing.

[M-technik-3]

Whats weird is the rear blinkes they are not opposite they only point in one direction or am I missing something in the photos. Never mind it's the shape that is causing that.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

My M235 has a long hood and short rear over hang. Size wise, it's similar in size to the Fox body coupe which to me was the best proportioned Stang ever made. The new Stang is nearly a foot longer and somehow 700lbs heavier.

As for sound, the DOHC 5.0s sound like hot garbage above 4,000 rpms compared to an LSX or 5.0 pushrod. Every Coyote owner seems to put an exhaust on that only makes the sound way worse. I don't deny the performance but the sound is not pleasing.

Funny - different strokes I guess. I really liked the coyote engine sound it’s one of the things that I like about the car.

As to the 700lbs every new car is heavier. I like the fox body but I was a big fan of the S550 if the gt350 engine wasn’t quite so prone to issues or the GT500 didn’t have ridiculous mark-ups I’d own one next to the Z06.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

As for sound, the DOHC 5.0s sound like hot garbage above 4,000 rpms compared to an LSX or 5.0 pushrod. Every Coyote owner seems to put an exhaust on that only makes the sound way worse. I don't deny the performance but the sound is not pleasing.

Almost no one thinks this. Big pushrod V8s don't sound bad, but the Mustang DOHCs are next-level, especially at higher RPMs.

The things the Mustang's have always struggled with is track driving, overheating of brakes, engine, trans, they weren't designed to be driven and beaten by the drivers for multiple laps. They've incrementally addressed this over the years with more "serious" models like Mach 1, but they've typically had a pretty big short-coming here and it's taken them to the end of the line to get there.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by RM7

Almost no one thinks this. Big pushrod V8s don't sound bad, but the Mustang DOHCs are next-level, especially at higher RPMs.

The things the Mustang's have always struggled with is track driving, overheating of brakes, engine, trans, they weren't designed to be driven and beaten by the drivers for multiple laps. They've incrementally addressed this over the years with more "serious" models like Mach 1, but they've typically had a pretty big short-coming here and it's taken them to the end of the line to get there.

The mustang is a low 30's chassis and the base GT is still that chassis with a big honking motor. Non pp brakes are embarrassing and completely inadequate cooling for that much power. Pretty much everything on them is designed for lowest cost possible. The PP1 is what the base GT should look like.

[Quadruple VANOS]

Originally Posted by RM7

The things the Mustang's have always struggled with is track driving, overheating of brakes, engine, trans, they weren't designed to be driven and beaten by the drivers for multiple laps. They've incrementally addressed this over the years with more "serious" models like Mach 1, but they've typically had a pretty big short-coming here and it's taken them to the end of the line to get there.

I'm not a Mustang expert, but they're easily the most popular platform at any track day event around here (northeast); with Corvettes the runner-up. Seems like they wouldn't be such popular track cars if they weren't reliable. 🤷🏻*♂️

[Alfisti]

The PP2 is pretty sorted, it still feels heavy but it's sorted. Not tracked it though in terms of reliability but it lapped a motortrend track faster than a F80 Comp which is a bit nuts.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by Quadruple VANOS

I'm not a Mustang expert, but they're easily the most popular platform at any track day event around here (northeast); with Corvettes the runner-up. Seems like they wouldn't be such popular track cars if they weren't reliable. 🤷🏻*♂️

Big difference between pp1/pp2/mach1/bullet/Shelby cars and base models. Corvettes too with z51 and things like trans coolers, etc. Id bet most people tracking them sought out the appropriate option packages.

[billnchristy]

I'm another in the camp of Coyotes sound awful.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

Big difference between pp1/pp2/mach1/bullet/Shelby cars and base models. Corvettes too with z51 and things like trans coolers, etc. Id bet most people tracking them sought out the appropriate option packages.

When I got the 1LE, the PP2 was just starting to break the news and I was considering it, along with a GT350. At the same time, GM was announcing the 2SS 1LE trim, as in the track package 1SS 1LE had already existed for some time and was a known quantity, just adding a higher trim level to it. The PP2 was not a known quantity at that time...but it became fairly obvious pretty fast it still wasn't as serious as the 1LE. They seem to always lag in this respect, or at least are out of sync. From the beginning Ford handicapped the 550 GT with 255 rear tires, those really have no place whatsoever on a car like this. Only recently, GM decided to lower to this level with the LT1 "V8 spec" Camaro, but the only reason for stuff like this is to build it out as a drag car, since they are so handicapped as far as the car relative to the engine.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

I'm another in the camp of Coyotes sound awful.

I was all about the Coyote when I first heard of it because who doesn't want a high revving V8? The lack of revs (5400rpm redline) was what annoyed me when driving my buddy's 5.0 notchback back in college. That motor desperately motor heads and a cam to find some extra topend. The Coyote has a metallic, piecing sound above 4,000rpms. Then these guys add catbacks and headers and my god does it get bad. I can't believe people think the Coyotes sound good at that point. They sure as sound like they are going much faster. It's almost like a Nissan VQ motor with headers and an exhaust in terms volume and piercing sound.

I think the Voodoo sounds pretty good at full wail but talk about a motor that will vibrate your soul when revved above 6000rpms. Definitely not soothing, almost feels broken.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

The PP2 is pretty sorted, it still feels heavy but it's sorted. Not tracked it though in terms of reliability but it lapped a motortrend track faster than a F80 Comp which is a bit nuts.

Can't we all agree that the primary way Ford and GM have gotten the Stang and Camaro to generate impressive handling numbers is through the use of massively wide wheels, super grippy tires that are done for in 5k-8K miles, pricey electro-magnetic shocks, and huge and expensive brakes?

The running costs to track one of these cars is immense.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Can't we all agree that the primary way Ford and GM have gotten the Stang and Camaro to generate impressive handling numbers is through the use of massively wide wheels, super grippy tires that are done for in 5k-8K miles, pricey electro-magnetic shocks, and huge and expensive brakes?

The running costs to track one of these cars is immense.

You mean basically the same recipie as M cars? They're heavy. Ms are heavy. Heavy high HP cars cost a ton to run.

[Donatello.]

It is just a shame that these will be $50k because new car pricing is out of control. Hard pass on a $50k Mustang. Below $40k OTD new loaded up? I'd take a Dark Horse vert.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Can't we all agree that the primary way Ford and GM have gotten the Stang and Camaro to generate impressive handling numbers is through the use of massively wide wheels, super grippy tires that are done for in 5k-8K miles, pricey electro-magnetic shocks, and huge and expensive brakes?

The running costs to track one of these cars is immense.

Seems like all new cars are pigs anymore so moot point there. Even the incoming C8Z is a 4k lb pig

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

It is just a shame that these will be $50k because new car pricing is out of control. Hard pass on a $50k Mustang. Below $40k OTD new loaded up? I'd take a Dark Horse vert.

Don't think the Dark Horse will be available in convertible.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

It is just a shame that these will be $50k because new car pricing is out of control. Hard pass on a $50k Mustang. Below $40k OTD new loaded up? I'd take a Dark Horse vert.

Even before the recent price hikes that'd get you an ecoboost if you want options for $40k OTD. A stripper GT might be doable. I know dealers who would do 4% under invoice on them. They started at 38k IIRC so that'd give you some room for TTL. Of course ones you actually want with the pp1 and 700a are pushing 50k. Zero chance of a Dark Horse being there, especially as a vert.

[Quadruple VANOS]

A loaded Dark Horse should be priced around the base M4.

[Mike00]

Everybody had dark horse pegged at $60k.

That of course was before Ford announced $1 billion hit this qtr on parts thanks to inflation. Cars about to get a massive hike.

Can’t believe I am saying this but hope the Fed goes big tomorrow and raises rates 100 or 150.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

You mean basically the same recipie as M cars? They're heavy. Ms are heavy. Heavy high HP cars cost a ton to run.

This might not be the right thread, but I agree. Actually, all cars have gotten crazy so fast that I'm worried we will see regulation soon. Can't have headlines every week with someone crashing into other cars going 130, 140, 162. It used to be rare, but just about every performance car over 40k is a beast now.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by chris719

This might not be the right thread, but I agree. Actually, all cars have gotten crazy so fast that I'm worried we will see regulation soon. Can't have headlines every week with someone crashing into other cars going 130, 140, 162. It used to be rare, but just about every performance car over 40k is a beast now.

I think EVs will be the cause of it. It's trivial to make them stupid fast. Australia recently had a law come up about requiring a special liscense for super cars. I sure hope we go that direction rather than banning them.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

I think EVs will be the cause of it. It's trivial to make them stupid fast. Australia recently had a law come up about requiring a special liscense for super cars. I sure hope we go that direction rather than banning them.

Don't know. Almost all of these crazy crashes that have been in the headlines in the US of late are gas sports cars or sedans. Most EVs other than the Plaid are not that fast over 100 mph. The lower speed crashes don't really make headlines. The 120+ mph do and then people in comments are all asking why cars can even go 120 mph.