[UPDATE] 2015: BMW M8, I8s, Z2, 9 series reportedly axed. i5 still on

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

All great choices to the customers that have bought them, and profitable to our sales.

So just to bring Cadillac into this discussion...

In the history of the US automotive market and in the world when the US lead the industry, Cadillac was considered the standard of the world (their marketing slogan BTW). From the 1930's through the mid 1970's Cadillac was considered one of the best marques in the would to own. Until someone at GM decided to rely on the Cadillac name to sell badge-engineered Chevrolets. We've all seen the fight Cadillac is now engaged in for the last 12 years or so become one of the leading Marques to own again. Tarting up Chevrolets as Cadillacs was good for Cadillac sales too, for a while...

[thorsen82]

Originally Posted by Wolf

your M235i is brilliant. The next M235i is gonna be even better when it switches to FWD.

/sarcasm

I don't think that next 2er will switches to fwd; i wish that f20 successor will be divided in two models : one fwd and one related to 2er with rwd

[clbmw]

Originally Posted by thorsen82

I don't think that next 2er will switches to fwd; i wish that f20 successor will be divided in two models : one fwd and one related to 2er with rwd

BMW would be monumentally stupid to remove the RWD from the M235i and the M135i. It's what sets them apart from everything else, the latter especially, a totally USP.

These days though I wouldn't put anything past them, and I expect they'll just mess up the M135i to save costs. Oh well I won't buy one neither will any other BMW enthusiast.

[Wolf]

Originally Posted by thorsen82

I don't think that next 2er will switches to fwd; i wish that f20 successor will be divided in two models : one fwd and one related to 2er with rwd

I have been here long enough on this forum to know for a fact that all 1/2 series are going FWD. Cost reduction BS as usual. Scott's posts lately are nothing but a small tranquilizer. He comforts us with great things coming for enthusiasts while easing out some marketing crap on FWD or a new model nobody knew it existed. Fast forward a little, you would see the good news isn't mentioned anymore but more junk about FWD and i cars.. I truly hope that I am wrong about this and it's just my imagination.

[FilipMPower]

Originally Posted by ron_jeremy

Let's be fair. The AT and GT is messy in deed.
But look at the competition.
MB makes buses, and this:
Audi is a derivate from VW and is filled with Skoda parts, so is the Brand formelt known as THE sportscar Brand - Porsche.
These days they're making more SUV than sportcars.
That's your competition, it's all business.
Look at the craze around Apple a year ago, how they were critized for not beeing innovative.
Look at the Stock and products since then.

The M2 is coming, the performance M4 model is coming shortly as well.
And then some, things are starting to happen, the weight are going into the right direction as well.
All this points into a nice direction If you ask me, but it's just to much complaining imo.

I don't like to complain, but the lineup is too full. And all these adaptive suspension options. I don't know, I would want BMW to get some new tech in driving dynamics soon, like a torque vectoring system. The 4 wheel steering didnt work properly in the last generation, I hope it will now. I just want some new options for driving, not the interior. And if I pay 2k for a new suspension, then make it be something special, like air suspension so the car can rise and drop. It seems like BMW is limiting itself because of the competition, which I dont like.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So just to bring Cadillac into this discussion...

In the history of the US automotive market and in the world when the US lead the industry, Cadillac was considered the standard of the world (their marketing slogan BTW). From the 1930's through the mid 1970's Cadillac was considered one of the best marques in the would to own. Until someone at GM decided to rely on the Cadillac name to sell badge-engineered Chevrolets. We've all seen the fight Cadillac is now engaged in for the last 12 years or so become one of the leading Marques to own again. Tarting up Chevrolets as Cadillacs was good for Cadillac sales too, for a while...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Cimarron

[CesaroM]

Originally Posted by ron_jeremy

Let's be fair. The AT and GT is messy in deed.
But look at the competition.
MB makes buses, and this:
Audi is a derivate from VW and is filled with Skoda parts, so is the Brand formelt known as THE sportscar Brand - Porsche.
These days they're making more SUV than sportcars.
That's your competition, it's all business.
Look at the craze around Apple a year ago, how they were critized for not beeing innovative.
Look at the Stock and products since then.

No.

Let's see now what MB makes:

There is Actros , Antos , Arcos , Atego , Travego, Citaro...Vito , Sprinter , Vinao , V , A , B , C , CLA , CLS , S , S coupe , E , G , GL , GLA , GLE , GLK , R , SL , SLK , AMG GT , SLS AMG and MAYBACH S Class respectively. did I miss something?...

All of their passenger cars are IMHO very well distinguished and placed and overall make more sense than what other car manufacturers do and make.

VAG is a GIANT

Look how many brands they own , Audi , VW , Bentley , Bugatti , Seat , Skoda , Lamborghini . Porsche and I think some bikes , trucks as well.

Porsche has always been and always will be the epitome of excellence no matter who owns them who's parts they use.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Kyle B

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Cimarron

Yup, lived through the whole mess. But before the Cimarron Cadillac was badge engineering to a smaller extent, which led to the great idea... "Hey, let's take a Cavilier and dress it up with a Crest and Duck badge and call it a Cadillac."

Similar to... "Hey, let's take a FWD Mini platform, put the magic Roundel on it and call it the 1-Series..."

For an old bastard like me who grew up on RWD BMW sport sedans, a FWD BMW is a joke, a seriously not funny joke.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Similar to... "Hey, let's take a FWD Mini platform, put the magic Roundel on it and call it the 1-Series..."

For an old bastard like me who grew up on RWD BMW sport sedans, a FWD BMW is a joke, a seriously not funny joke.

Meh to be fair, using the same platform for a car is different than straight up rebadging. Cadillac uses the same platforms that RWD Chevys use, nothing wrong with that.

With that said, I do think its sad that everyone is moving towards FWD models. Mercedes did it with the CLA now BMW is following suit. Guess everyone wants a piece of the new entry level market.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Meh to be fair, using the same platform for a car is different than straight up rebadging. Cadillac uses the same platforms that RWD Chevys use, nothing wrong with that.

With that said, I do think its sad that everyone is moving towards FWD models. Mercedes did it with the CLA now BMW is following suit. Guess everyone wants a piece of the new entry level market.

Agreed, but I think it's fair to say that for BMW enthusiasts the direction of the company is a bit off course. But I remember the days, just 5 or so years ago when BMW touted how it never had to compromise its cars like other brands (i.e. Lexus, Infinity, Audi) because it was “independent” and didn’t platform share. Oh and just 10 years ago on how RWD could only provide the ideal 50/50 weight balance necessary for an excellent-handling car. And then Scott26 saying in a post several months back, how BMW figured out a FWD platform provides more spacious interiors and layout (i.e. no driveline tunnel), like it was an engineering epiphany – something I pointed out in the thread that the British figured that out in the 1950’s, and the Japanize car industry built a dynasty on. But whatever.

And let's not forget the Olds Toronado...

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Agreed, but I think it's fair to say that for BMW enthusiasts the direction of the company is a bit off course. But I remember the days, just 5 or so years ago when BMW touted how it never had to compromise its cars like other brands (i.e. Lexus, Infinity, Audi) because it was “independent” and didn’t platform share. Oh and just 10 years ago on how RWD could only provide the ideal 50/50 weight balance necessary for an excellent-handling car. And then Scott26 saying in a post several months back, how BMW figured out a FWD platform provides more spacious interiors and layout (i.e. no driveline tunnel), like it was an engineering epiphany – something I pointed out in the thread that the British figured that out in the 1950’s, and the Japanize car industry built a dynasty on. But whatever.

And let's not forget the Olds Toronado...

I also remember when BMW thought forced induction was a "low tech" way to bump horsepower. At least that used to be M GmbH's philosophy.

My how time changes things.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

I also remember when BMW thought forced induction was a "low tech" way to bump horsepower. At least that used to be M GmbH's philosophy.

My how time changes things.

Apparently too low tech to get a HPFP to work correctly...

[thorsen82]

even with a fwd platform it's possible to make good cars.
i guess that ukl platform can be refined on sr1 with more precious suspension systems , like a double wishbone on the front and a five point multilink on the rear..

[Kjenndal]

Let’s see which concept cars/motorcycles the Concorso d'eleganza villa d'este 2015 will show us!

[SCOTT26]

The truth of the matter is that BMW have not confirmed these vehicles for production. So they cannot confirm nor deny.

In regards to the Z1 they are more occupied in trying to make the MINI version more feasible for production. So officially they are not at a decision for this vehicle as of yet as the current state of the Roadster market is not as it once was especially at the lower end although BMW are watching to see what happens in regards with the new Mazda MX-5. Officially they need to market watch to see if this vehicle can provide the turnaround or evidently show that market has collapsed. One thing discussed is that the MINI could potentially be RWD if put on a current architecture.

The Super M car has only ever made discussion with no process in place. There was never going to be an M version of the i8 as the two brands offer completely differing philosophies. Sharing technology and materials would be the only relative feature everything else would have been different. The year 2016 will bring forth a concept based on the i8 to show potential progression - reaction to the car unveiled in the midst of BMWs centenary will be the litmus test to decide if production will become a reality even as a limited edition model.

The next BMWi vehicle will be a four door and this is where it gets interesting. As the report indicates said car to be available in 2018 especially when an interview advised the next BMWi car to arrive in production in 2020 following a two stage concept series like the original Vision EfficientDynamics/i8.

The reason for the delay is to continue the Born Electric philosophy of BMWi which situating the four door on an electrified 5er undermines the complete BMWi message.

In 2014 BMW previewed the vision for a range-topping luxury sedan at the Beijing Auto Show last form of the BMW Vision Future Luxury Concept. Which indicated that the concept presented a viable long-term vision for the expansion of the BMW brand.

The decision on whether to move ahead with a production version of the sedan will happen as soon as Harald Krueger, who is said to be receptive to the concept of a new range-topping sedan, takes over as CEO. As over the past year the car has been sent for numerous customer viewings to showcase potential for a more exclusive BMW. The reaction has been in favour of the car as there are customers that see and would like to see a BMW in that position and not only that a BMW they want to actually drive. BMW kept the VFL as an exclusive sedan because they did not want to see the driver mistaken as the chauffeur which is the complete opposite on the Maybach S600.

Internally the car is identified as the 9 series, in keeping with BMW's naming conventions, and is intended as a direct competitor to the recently-unveiled Mercedes-Maybach S600 sedan while avoiding direct competition with the Rolls-Royce Ghost, in other words the bridge to Rolls-Royce.

The overall issue is that these are cars intended for market changes which are foreseen in the next few years that there is no hurry to introduce to a market that is not ready at the moment as when the BMW X7 arrives the luxury market will be topping at least 1 million units and with a 9er proposed for launch in 2018 it would arrive at the critical point to take a serious advantage.
The all new Rolls-Royce Phantom arrives in 2017 and it is this car that will be shared with the 9er as the Vision Future Luxury showcased upcoming development for the next Phantom especially in relation to construction, materials and eDrive drivetrain in which VFL used BMWs much talked about eDrive Turbo 6 cylinder drivetrain which will feature in a plug-in Phantom model.

But what you can take is that one of the final proposals for the 3er G20 uses similar design language to the Vision Future Luxury but shrunk to 3er proportions including the stretched slimmer tail lamps that sit on top of the space for the license plate higher up instead of across from it has very much been inherited for future BMW models.

For BMW M. The lack of investing in super sports cars do not harm the image of the brand one bit. The next stage of M will not only increase lightweight technology on the next M5 but also allows further progress to be considered for the BMW M4 and M2 models.

At the close of this year we will see both ideas from the BMW-Toyota partnership in a new sports car.

There is only one constant among German automakers including BMW in the markets today and it's that no segment shall remain unfilled or unidentified.

[AKRAPOVICOWNS]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The truth of the matter is that BMW have not confirmed these vehicles for production. So they cannot confirm nor deny.

In regards to the Z1 they are more occupied in trying to make the MINI version more feasible for production. So officially they are not at a decision for this vehicle as of yet as the current state of the Roadster market is not as it once was especially at the lower end although BMW are watching to see what happens in regards with the new Mazda MX-5. Officially they need to market watch to see if this vehicle can provide the turnaround or evidently show that market has collapsed. One thing discussed is that the MINI could potentially be RWD if put on a current architecture.

The Super M car has only ever made discussion with no process in place. There was never going to be an M version of the i8 as the two brands offer completely differing philosophies. Sharing technology and materials would be the only relative feature everything else would have been different. The year 2016 will bring forth a concept based on the i8 to show potential progression - reaction to the car unveiled in the midst of BMWs centenary will be the litmus test to decide if production will become a reality even as a limited edition model.

The next BMWi vehicle will be a four door and this is where it gets interesting. As the report indicates said car to be available in 2018 especially when an interview advised the next BMWi car to arrive in production in 2020 following a two stage concept series like the original Vision EfficientDynamics/i8.

The reason for the delay is to continue the Born Electric philosophy of BMWi which situating the four door on an electrified 5er undermines the complete BMWi message.

In 2014 BMW previewed the vision for a range-topping luxury sedan at the Beijing Auto Show last form of the BMW Vision Future Luxury Concept. Which indicated that the concept presented a viable long-term vision for the expansion of the BMW brand.

The decision on whether to move ahead with a production version of the sedan will happen as soon as Harald Krueger, who is said to be receptive to the concept of a new range-topping sedan, takes over as CEO. As over the past year the car has been sent for numerous customer viewings to showcase potential for a more exclusive BMW. The reaction has been in favour of the car as there are customers that see and would like to see a BMW in that position and not only that a BMW they want to actually drive. BMW kept the VFL as an exclusive sedan because they did not want to see the driver mistaken as the chauffeur which is the complete opposite on the Maybach S600.

Internally the car is identified as the 9 series, in keeping with BMW's naming conventions, and is intended as a direct competitor to the recently-unveiled Mercedes-Maybach S600 sedan while avoiding direct competition with the Rolls-Royce Ghost, in other words the bridge to Rolls-Royce.

The overall issue is that these are cars intended for market changes which are foreseen in the next few years that there is no hurry to introduce to a market that is not ready at the moment as when the BMW X7 arrives the luxury market will be topping at least 1 million units and with a 9er proposed for launch in 2018 it would arrive at the critical point to take a serious advantage.
The all new Rolls-Royce Phantom arrives in 2017 and it is this car that will be shared with the 9er as the Vision Future Luxury showcased upcoming development for the next Phantom especially in relation to construction, materials and eDrive drivetrain in which VFL used BMWs much talked about eDrive Turbo 6 cylinder drivetrain which will feature in a plug-in Phantom model.

But what you can take is that one of the final proposals for the 3er G20 uses similar design language to the Vision Future Luxury but shrunk to 3er proportions including the stretched slimmer tail lamps that sit on top of the space for the license plate higher up instead of across from it has very much been inherited for future BMW models.

For BMW M. The lack of investing in super sports cars do not harm the image of the brand one bit. The next stage of M will not only increase lightweight technology on the next M5 but also allows further progress to be considered for the BMW M4 and M2 models.

At the close of this year we will see both ideas from the BMW-Toyota partnership in a new sports car.

There is only one constant among German automakers including BMW in the markets today and it's that no segment shall remain unfilled or unidentified.

I really like what you said about the 9 series and the G20.

If "no market shall remain unfulfilled " , that means that we are looking at an 911 fighter in the form of this BMW-toyota concept due to later this year?

You have been talking about a concept car that will be shown this year for quite some time now..is this it? Or the X7? i5? When will we see it?

[Kjenndal]

Today BMW announced two concept cars for the Concorso d'eleganza villa d'este on the 23.05.2015.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

For BMW M. The lack of investing in super sports cars do not harm the image of the brand one bit.

Well, I don't have a good image of BMW.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

There is only one constant among German automakers including BMW in the markets today and it's that no segment shall remain unfilled or unidentified.

Well, there are many segments that remain unfilled, among other are sports cars (Z4 M Coupé), supercars (M10/M One/M...whatever supercar name is) and superlimousines (M7).

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Levi

Well, I don't have a good image of BMW.

That's your prerogative.

Well, there are many segments that remain unfilled, among other are sports cars (Z4 M Coupé), supercars (M10/M One/M...whatever supercar name is) and superlimousines (M7).

The market does not necessarily need these vehicles at this point.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Will the BMW X7 have 4WD + 4WS like the new Audi S Q7, the Bentley Bentayga and the next Porsche Cayenne Turbo?

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So just to bring Cadillac into this discussion...

In the history of the US automotive market and in the world when the US lead the industry, Cadillac was considered the standard of the world (their marketing slogan BTW). From the 1930's through the mid 1970's Cadillac was considered one of the best marques in the would to own. Until someone at GM decided to rely on the Cadillac name to sell badge-engineered Chevrolets. We've all seen the fight Cadillac is now engaged in for the last 12 years or so become one of the leading Marques to own again. Tarting up Chevrolets as Cadillacs was good for Cadillac sales too, for a while...

I do remember the Cimmaron. Sort of similar to what BMW has been doing with the M235i (aka a mini). Crappy effort by BMW to live on the reputation of the "real" 2 series.

I prefer a car and have a deposit down on a Lucid Air. I wanted to be able to ignore the grille and like the IX but it is simply too ugly overall for me. I have put down a deposit on the AWD version of the Lyriq as a backup to the Lucid. I hope the I5 may be the one to keep me in the BMW family but until it is released, it is vaporware.

[Machinebuilder]

I think BMW like a lot of other manufacturers do not know what to do. It is not an easy time for legacy ice automakers. Most will not make it without being baled out.