Firearms

[Sara]

Ew my hair looks disgusting. So frizzy

[zx10guy]

LOL

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by paliknight

Oh I meant when conceal carrying out in public. Not in actual tactical situations for SWAT, LE and Military. I was referring to the discussion involving sara cause i assumed she wouldnt be wearing body armor to the bar

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

You never know with her. She might go all in!

LOL - that would be awesome. Like a modern day chastity belt / garments!

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Zooming in on one of the pictures Sara posted, the panel shows 2.5 yards.

Honest question - do you guys deal in feet as a measurement down there? I didn't see a decimal place between the 2 and the 5, and that distance looks way longer than 2.5 yards. On the other hand, if it were 25 feet, then that would approximate 8.3 yards / meters which seems plausible from the video. Considering that that range is likely a 25 meter range.

[Fundguy1]

Im guessing its feet which is a reasonable distance for pistol practice.

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by paliknight

For hiking, a 9mm will not do much good. Heck, even a .45acp wont against bears and larger animals unless you are skilled enough to get a headshot off on a moving target in a high stress situation, which most people are not. Your first course of action would be to avoid any confrontation.

I only have a .45acp so that's what I would be carrying, if I could. But I'm a little skeptical that a 9 / .45 wouldn't be useful.

Ok, a 9mm wouldn't be useful against larger game, but I think it would have all the stopping power needed for coyotes and then some which is what I'd be most likely to run into.

But a .45 should be pretty good in most situations I would think no matter where it is placed, up to I would think, a black bear. There are no brown bears where I live and if I were to ever run into one, I would agree a .45 would be useless in that situation, or against something large like a moose.

Considering that a .45 hits with something like 500ft/lbs of force and a black bear usually doesn't exceed 300lbs, I would think it would set him back a little? At least enough to follow through hopefully with a better shot to a kill region.

And a wolf should be no problem, if you could hit it. But I'd imagine it would be very close quarters shooting by the time you could get reasonably accurate unless it was rushing in a straight line.

Black bears are remote too around here, but that would be the largest game I'd be worried about, coyotes are much more common, and wolves less so.

Would you agree with the above - if not, where did I go wrong / what's correct?

[zx10guy]

I guess it could be feet and I also note not seeing clearly a decimal point. But the default setting at my range is yards. So a 25 on the panel would be 25 yards at my range.

[Joekerr]

Hmm, well you and I can both agree that is definitely not 25 yards from the pictures. But I really don't think it is 2.5 yards either, because I could pretty much reach out and touch the paper at that range if I wanted to lol.

If that were a 25 yard range (and I suspect it is), 8 yards would be plausible in that case given where the target appears in reference to the range - it's not halfway, but it looks to be a reasonable distance for practice.

[Mr Tonka]

Not that it matters much but all evidence points to 2.5yds. (8ft)

No 9mm pistol will flip the target like that any further than 3yds.

Most range panels with set distances like that are 2.5, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20 and 25. If it's a 25yd range.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

I only have a .45acp so that's what I would be carrying, if I could. But I'm a little skeptical that a 9 / .45 wouldn't be useful.

Ok, a 9mm wouldn't be useful against larger game, but I think it would have all the stopping power needed for coyotes and then some which is what I'd be most likely to run into.

But a .45 should be pretty good in most situations I would think no matter where it is placed, up to I would think, a black bear. There are no brown bears where I live and if I were to ever run into one, I would agree a .45 would be useless in that situation, or against something large like a moose.

Considering that a .45 hits with something like 500ft/lbs of force and a black bear usually doesn't exceed 300lbs, I would think it would set him back a little? At least enough to follow through hopefully with a better shot to a kill region.

And a wolf should be no problem, if you could hit it. But I'd imagine it would be very close quarters shooting by the time you could get reasonably accurate unless it was rushing in a straight line.

Black bears are remote too around here, but that would be the largest game I'd be worried about, coyotes are much more common, and wolves less so.

Would you agree with the above - if not, where did I go wrong / what's correct?

Its a penetration problem. A 45 is a big slow bullet. It has a lot of force but on a bear it would be difficult to penetrate to the vitals only doing a flesh wound pissing off the bear. A 357 or larger magnum would be a better choice.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

Hmm, well you and I can both agree that is definitely not 25 yards from the pictures. But I really don't think it is 2.5 yards either, because I could pretty much reach out and touch the paper at that range if I wanted to lol.

If that were a 25 yard range (and I suspect it is), 8 yards would be plausible in that case given where the target appears in reference to the range - it's not halfway, but it looks to be a reasonable distance for practice.

Don't forget that the targets she's shooting at are not life-size. I think that's what is throwing all of you off. Which means her groups are that much better. Check the size of the target at her feet or on the bench in the pics.

in terms of where the target is, count the angled ceiling tiles and you'll see the target caddy isn't even past the second one. Plus the muzzle blast moving the target. And no offense to Sara, because those are great groups for your level of experience (especially shooting at the rate of fire you were) but if it were out much further than 2.5yds the grouping would be much different. I mean we're talking about an untrained inexperienced shooter using a subcompact 9mm. There aren't many experienced shooters here that could match those groups at 10 yds with that rate of fire.

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

I only have a .45acp so that's what I would be carrying, if I could. But I'm a little skeptical that a 9 / .45 wouldn't be useful.

Ok, a 9mm wouldn't be useful against larger game, but I think it would have all the stopping power needed for coyotes and then some which is what I'd be most likely to run into.

But a .45 should be pretty good in most situations I would think no matter where it is placed, up to I would think, a black bear. There are no brown bears where I live and if I were to ever run into one, I would agree a .45 would be useless in that situation, or against something large like a moose.

Considering that a .45 hits with something like 500ft/lbs of force and a black bear usually doesn't exceed 300lbs, I would think it would set him back a little? At least enough to follow through hopefully with a better shot to a kill region.

And a wolf should be no problem, if you could hit it. But I'd imagine it would be very close quarters shooting by the time you could get reasonably accurate unless it was rushing in a straight line.

Black bears are remote too around here, but that would be the largest game I'd be worried about, coyotes are much more common, and wolves less so.

Would you agree with the above - if not, where did I go wrong / what's correct?

Black bears can go well above that. Here in Georgia they can reach 600-700 pounds in certain areas and situations.

But either way, the only time you would wanna shoot it is if you hit the central nervous system, and usually their skulls are a tough moving target and hard for ammo to penetrate. FMJ might be a bit better but if you dont hit it in the Brain youre pretty fucked. They move quick; their agility is surprising for a beast that size.

If you want a gun with stopping power you'll have to start looking at revolvers like a .44 magnum and higher to guarantee stopping the bear regardless of where you hit.

The best option though is to carry bear spray and use the gun as a last resort.

As for smaller game 45acp should be fine, but I would still load with +p ammo (higher pressure rounds) of 230g or more.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Not that it matters much but all evidence points to 2.5yds. (8ft)

No 9mm pistol will flip the target like that any further than 3yds.

Most range panels with set distances like that are 2.5, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20 and 25. If it's a 25yd range.

Yes that has to be it. I just pushed the "send away" button and it took it away and stopped and I didn't push it away any farther. So if it's 2.5 as the first stopping point, then that's where it stopped. Seemed farther, but then again I am so small.

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by paliknight

Black bears can go well above that. Here in Georgia they can reach 600-700 pounds in certain areas and situations.

But either way, the only time you would wanna shoot it is if you hit the central nervous system, and usually their skulls are a tough moving target and hard for ammo to penetrate. FMJ might be a bit better but if you dont hit it in the Brain youre pretty fucked. They move quick; their agility is surprising for a beast that size.

If you want a gun with stopping power you'll have to start looking at revolvers like a .44 magnum and higher to guarantee stopping the bear regardless of where you hit.

The best option though is to carry bear spray and use the gun as a last resort.

As for smaller game 45acp should be fine, but I would still load with +p ammo (higher pressure rounds) of 230g or more.

Perfect opportunity to draw a link to the obesity problem in America vs Canada Amirite Mr. Tonka?

I joke, had no idea they get up that big. They probably do in other parts of Canada too, but around me, they are much leaner. Against a 600lb black bear, yeah, I wouldn't be loving my chances either - that to me is like shooting at a brown bear. Not going there unless there is no other option to escape.

I've heard they are quick - never honestly seen one, but I've heard enough to make me want to make sure I can avoid any confrontation as much as possible. The conversation is theoretical anyways, because I can't carry anyways. Most I could carry I suppose is a shotgun, but would need a hunting license and I'm thinking my neighbours would be looking at me pretty strange tromping down the street to the woods with a shotgun.

If it came down to it, and considering you can't carry, aside from spray which is a pretty decent sized canister, what else would you take? A knife as a last resort? What type?

If I'm going into the back woods I'll usually bring a small axe with me. Better than nothing.

Thanks for the thoughts though - never really considered a .45 wouldn't penetrate to the vitals.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

I only have a .45acp so that's what I would be carrying, if I could. But I'm a little skeptical that a 9 / .45 wouldn't be useful.

Ok, a 9mm wouldn't be useful against larger game, but I think it would have all the stopping power needed for coyotes and then some which is what I'd be most likely to run into.

But a .45 should be pretty good in most situations I would think no matter where it is placed, up to I would think, a black bear. There are no brown bears where I live and if I were to ever run into one, I would agree a .45 would be useless in that situation, or against something large like a moose.

Considering that a .45 hits with something like 500ft/lbs of force and a black bear usually doesn't exceed 300lbs, I would think it would set him back a little? At least enough to follow through hopefully with a better shot to a kill region.

And a wolf should be no problem, if you could hit it. But I'd imagine it would be very close quarters shooting by the time you could get reasonably accurate unless it was rushing in a straight line.

Black bears are remote too around here, but that would be the largest game I'd be worried about, coyotes are much more common, and wolves less so.

Would you agree with the above - if not, where did I go wrong / what's correct?

Here is an example of the differences between bullet size, weight and speed.

The splatters of paint missing on this steal target are made from 230gr .45acp bullets. Large and heavy. The almost penetrating 6 holes in the steal including the one that almost cut the frame in two, were made from a 55gr .22 cal bullet traveling at 3000ft/sec.






This is just to illustrate how something with perceived "stopping power" like a large .45 pails in comparison to just about any rifle caliber.

As someone said, bear spray and back up pistol is effective.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Sara504

Yes that has to be it. I just pushed the "send away" button and it took it away and stopped and I didn't push it away any farther. So if it's 2.5 as the first stopping point, then that's where it stopped. Seemed farther, but then again I am so small.

Either way, with the size of those targets, that's great shooting. I wouldn't guess that was only your first or second time shooting. Too bad you're so far away, i think you'd make a quick study. I get the feeling that you're good with knowing what you're doing with your body. Riding horses requires subtle input with weight, squeeze, reign tension, rhythm etc... Same basic requirements for becoming proficient with firearms. Squeezing more with one hand than the other, putting slightly more weight on one foot than the other, leaning, knee bending, target acquisition after first shot, etc...

A lot of people don't have enough self-awareness to know what they are doing with their arm or knees or weight. While instructing people, I've told them to lean forward a bit and they put their head down or bend their knees. I've told them to move their right foot back and they point their right toes out. Or to pull with their off hand and push with their gun hand and they lean back... (it's such a WTF moment for me) My guess is that you'll be a great shooter with practice.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Either way, with the size of those targets, that's great shooting. I wouldn't guess that was only your first or second time shooting. Too bad you're so far away, i think you'd make a quick study. I get the feeling that you're good with knowing what you're doing with your body. Riding horses requires subtle input with weight, squeeze, reign tension, rhythm etc... Same basic requirements for becoming proficient with firearms. Squeezing more with one hand than the other, putting slightly more weight on one foot than the other, leaning, knee bending, target acquisition after first shot, etc...

A lot of people don't have enough self-awareness to know what they are doing with their arm or knees or weight. While instructing people, I've told them to lean forward a bit and they put their head down or bend their knees. I've told them to move their right foot back and they point their right toes out. Or to pull with their off hand and push with their gun hand and they lean back... (it's such a WTF moment for me) My guess is that you'll be a great shooter with practice.

Im heading your way this summer, want to meet up for a range day?

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Sara504

Im heading your way this summer, want to meet up for a range day?

Let me know when and i'll let you know where.

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

Perfect opportunity to draw a link to the obesity problem in America vs Canada Amirite Mr. Tonka?

I joke, had no idea they get up that big. They probably do in other parts of Canada too, but around me, they are much leaner. Against a 600lb black bear, yeah, I wouldn't be loving my chances either - that to me is like shooting at a brown bear. Not going there unless there is no other option to escape.

I've heard they are quick - never honestly seen one, but I've heard enough to make me want to make sure I can avoid any confrontation as much as possible. The conversation is theoretical anyways, because I can't carry anyways. Most I could carry I suppose is a shotgun, but would need a hunting license and I'm thinking my neighbours would be looking at me pretty strange tromping down the street to the woods with a shotgun.

If it came down to it, and considering you can't carry, aside from spray which is a pretty decent sized canister, what else would you take? A knife as a last resort? What type?

If I'm going into the back woods I'll usually bring a small axe with me. Better than nothing.

Thanks for the thoughts though - never really considered a .45 wouldn't penetrate to the vitals.

Yeah man these assholes run like 40mph. So no way youre gonna outrun that shit. The best thing to do is to alert the bear of your presence. They rarely every attack unless there are cubs around, so watch out for those. If you see any, GTFO there asap.

I always carry a Ka-bar with me in the woods out of habit. Its a great utility knife, and worst case scenario, a last resort weapon. I would try using spray, evasion and other tactics though before I get that close to a bear. These fuckers have long ass nails (4 to 6 inches) that can shred you.

yeah their fur and fat gives them a ton of protection and padding to protect them from bullets.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by paliknight

Yeah man these assholes run like 40mph. So no way youre gonna outrun that shit. The best thing to do is to alert the bear of your presence. They rarely every attack unless there are cubs around, so watch out for those. If you see any, GTFO there asap.

I always carry a Ka-bar with me in the woods out of habit. Its a great utility knife, and worst case scenario, a last resort weapon. I would try using spray, evasion and other tactics though before I get that close to a bear. These fuckers have long ass nails (4 to 6 inches) that can shred you.

yeah their fur and fat gives them a ton of protection and padding to protect them from bullets.

Do you know how to tell the difference between black bear scat and brown bear scat?

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Do you know how to tell the difference between black bear scat and brown bear scat?

I was in the Army, but Im not that much of a survivalist lol. I just know when you see scat be on alert, or just always be on alert out in the woods. I always keep my head on a swivel to keep a lookout for any identifying marks or tracks or etc.

I lived in Georgia only long enough to learn the basics.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by paliknight

I was in the Army, but Im not that much of a survivalist lol. I just know when you see scat be on alert, or just always be on alert out in the woods. I always keep my head on a swivel to keep a lookout for any identifying marks or tracks or etc.

I lived in Georgia only long enough to learn the basics.

Black bear scat looks like cherry pitts and smells like poo. Brown bear scat has bells in it and smells like pepper spray.

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Black bear scat looks like cherry pitts and smells like poo. Brown bear scat has bells in it and smells like pepper spray.

Ill be honest I probably still wont be able to tell the difference. Im not sure where youre located, but here in GA and VA there are no restrictions on weapons so I usually take my SCAR17 as a primary and my FNX45 Tac as a secondary. And I usually have a small team with shotguns, bolt actions, etc.

We usually try to look like a jacked up version of seal team six.