F1 2021: Saudi Arabian GP - Jeddah (Dec 5)

[paulo_f80m3]

Originally Posted by M2CS

Max should be willing to fight Hamilton, but within the confines of the rules. Being willing to consistently and blatantly break the rules to fight Hamilton is not an honorable trait. A boxer attempting to become championship by head kicking his opponent then declaring "at least I have the balls to fight the champ!" is a fool.

It's already been mentioned, but Max squandered away the opportunity to already have won the championship and he wouldn't have needed to resort to so much dirty driving to accomplish that task.

You're right but it's so awesome to watch. Much better than seeing one car in front by half a lap and falling asleep mid race. This goes back to F1 being what it's always been unfortunately. 2 teams or drivers fighting for championships. That's what's wrong with this sport. The day F1 has 6 or 7 drivers going into the final weekend with a chance to win the championship would be a dream.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by paulo_f80m3

You're right but it's so awesome to watch. Much better than seeing one car in front by half a lap and falling asleep mid race. This goes back to F1 being what it's always been unfortunately. 2 teams or drivers fighting for championships. That's what's wrong with this sport. The day F1 has 6 or 7 drivers going into the final weekend with a chance to win the championship would be a dream.

A driver doing a lot of dirty driving isn't what's needed to make the races more exciting. For me, most MotoGP seasons are more exciting because the riders can stay close to each other and constantly battle for the lead. Due to the aero in F1, it's difficult to stay close to each other so that makes it harder to give the fans exciting battles. Hopefully the new cars coming next year will make it easier for multiple cars to battle in close formation.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Believe impact occurs at the moment of sudden acceleration, ~5300 mark.

He speeds up then slows for the corner where you indicate brake check.

Indeed this is true.

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

what a joke^
You really do need to learn how to read telemetry data


...

Where you highlight your 'brake check', it's where Max brakes for the next corner. You can also see that in the previous lap (lap36) where both Max and HAM brake at the exact rate, and at the exact spot.

Also, the supposedly "speeding up before the brake check" doesn't show on the multiple video feeds. Because from your points highlighted on the graph, that speeding up would have been from 100 to 200kph; which would either mean a doubling of the revs or shifting up 1 or 2 times. Both dont happen as can be seen in the video feeds.
Also that "speeding up before the brake check" would have happened over a stretch over 100M. Not seen on video.
The crash happened at 5300m.

[MontyB1]

Honestly you couldn’t make it up, the entire rest of the field said that the move in Brazil shouldn’t have been allowed and should have been sanctioned but nope the FIA and the stewards left it even post race.

Today we get the interview below. Basically he did drive Lewis off the circuit in Brazil and it was fine, I did the same in Jeddah and I get punished what gives.

Sorry didn’t we all say it wasn’t clear, so basically both moves should have been punished. Ah well onto the final chapter of the season.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/v...razil/6858307/

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Indeed this is true.

Where you highlight your 'brake check', it's where Max brakes for the next corner. You can also see that in the previous lap (lap36) where both Max and HAM brake at the exact rate, and at the exact spot.

Also, the supposedly "speeding up before the brake check" doesn't show on the multiple video feeds. Because from your points highlighted on the graph, that speeding up would have been from 100 to 200kph; which would either mean a doubling of the revs or shifting up 1 or 2 times. Both dont happen as can be seen in the video feeds.
Also that "speeding up before the brake check" would have happened over a stretch over 100M. Not seen on video.
The crash happened at 5300m.

Yes, impact is the 5300 mark after the prolonged decel by both drivers.

For anyone who hasn't moved on to Abu Dhabi, the reason it matters is it shows VER's braking pre-impact wasn't particularly heavy. Not really out of line with the entire decel, and certainly not unavoidable by a trailing driver leaving margin for error.

When an F1 car hammers the brakes it creates cliffs in telemetry speed data. Compare the following to the speed trace pre-impact on the Jeddah chart

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

For anyone who hasn't moved on to Abu Dhabi, the reason it matters is it shows VER's braking pre-impact wasn't particularly heavy. Not really out of line with the entire decel, and certainly not unavoidable by a trailing driver leaving margin for error.

also the Stewards specified a max braking of 2.4g.
But that doesn't say much. I mean, you can slow down from 101kph to 100kph with 10g, or a 100g if the car allows, but you'll still be only slowing down from 101 to 100kph, you're just doing it really fast.
If you cant dodge that, you're clearly too close to the other car

It is the amount of speed that you slow down abruptly, and that that significantly happened (a proper brake check is at least? 25kph? slowing down?) doesn't really show from both the data and the video footage.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

You edited my post , that makes that your statement makes sense ...

Same way .Just like Mercedes is cheating with HAM's Rocket PU.

Well done mate !

I'm highlighting your over use of the term balls, and you referring to it like it's the most important trait a driver can have, and max is superior to Hamilton because he is "ballsy". Well it's not the case, being smart and calculated is more important/valuable than trying to push the envelope to be the fastest at all times. This is why max hasn't been able to wrap up the championship yet, because when you're always on edge mistakes happen - shunted in Silverstone and messed up this last qualifying.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by paulo_f80m3

At least Max has the balls to fight Hamilton and Bottas while the rest of the grid (except Alonso) lets them go by without a fight. Looking forward to Sunday.

Because max is the only other one with the car capable to do so? Perez does too but he's really off the pace.

Everyone else gets blue flagged when theyre lapped, keep fighting that and you get a nice drive through.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

I'm highlighting your over use of the term balls, and you referring to it like it's the most important trait a driver can have, and max is superior to Hamilton because he is "ballsy". Well it's not the case, being smart and calculated is more important/valuable than trying to push the envelope to be the fastest at all times. This is why max hasn't been able to wrap up the championship yet, because when you're always on edge mistakes happen - shunted in Silverstone and messed up this last qualifying.

It's easy for any driver to be calculating with rocket PU like in 44 car, it's exactly why Max has to drive at max always while take it easy Ham could rocket away but doesn't want to strain the mechanics too much and of course the tyres.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

It's easy for any driver to be calculating with rocket PU like in 44 car, it's exactly why Max has to drive at max always while take it easy Ham could rocket away but doesn't want to strain the mechanics too much and of course the tyres.

Max had all early season to be calculated when the RB was significantly faster than the merc, if he had done so at silverstone the championship would be over. But he wanted to be "ballsy" and never give an inch, and thus got shunted and dnf'ed. If he had decided to live another day and backed off the story would be over now.

[3798j]

This tweet impressed...Not my words (but I'm so aligned with the thought):
"Verstappen is the embodiment of how not to be a sportsman."

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Max had all early season to be calculated when the RB was significantly faster than the merc, if he had done so at silverstone the championship would be over. But he wanted to be "ballsy" and never give an inch, and thus got shunted and dnf'ed. If he had decided to live another day and backed off the story would be over now.

Back off for what? Ham put himself in a position to hit him not to overtake him and it is seen from all the graphs and pics that he positioned himself in the middle of the track quickly not on the apex where he should have been to specifically ram Max. Ham should have been black flagged for doing that but of course it's Mercafia.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Back off for what? Ham put himself in a position to hit him not to overtake him and it is seen from all the graphs and pics that he positioned himself in the middle of the track quickly not on the apex where he should have been to specifically ram Max. Ham should have been black flagged for doing that but of course it's Mercafia.

First off Ham was ahead going into the corner and max left him no space to even attempt the inside line, this was similar to what Max did in Brazil, so by your logic Max should have also gotten a black flag (only difference was Ham was smart enough to move). Ham also got a penalty for this move, and Max didn't even get an investigation so by your logic (if a decision isn't in your favor it is a conspiracy to get you) it is Maxfia.

Second in response to "back off for what", this is where race iq and maturity comes into play, in the term live to fight another day. Max should have realized he was ahead by alot in the championship so he has more to lose, thus he should have played it safe and back off to avoid any damage. But Max lacks the maturity to do so and wants to fight every single second even when it is not beneficial or wise to do so, as shown by him battling a back marker in Ocon at the end of the race for literally no reason at all.

[M5Rick]

So, we have here the moments Mercafia did not investigate.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/10066...ink=inarticle1

[M5Rick]

More Mercafia confusion.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/v...razil/6858307/

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

First off Ham was ahead going into the corner and max left him no space to even attempt the inside line, this was similar to what Max did in Brazil, so by your logic Max should have also gotten a black flag (only difference was Ham was smart enough to move). Ham also got a penalty for this move, and Max didn't even get an investigation so by your logic (if a decision isn't in your favor it is a conspiracy to get you) it is Maxfia.

Second in response to "back off for what", this is where race iq and maturity comes into play, in the term live to fight another day. Max should have realized he was ahead by alot in the championship so he has more to lose, thus he should have played it safe and back off to avoid any damage. But Max lacks the maturity to do so and wants to fight every single second even when it is not beneficial or wise to do so, as shown by him battling a back marker in Ocon at the end of the race for literally no reason at all.

Kimi has said that he has had a ton of advice which he puts straight into the bin, he does what he thinks and that's what gets him through.
If Max listened to some of the advice on here then he'd only have half the points he has now at this stage, what you fail to take on board f87 is that you cannot change a persons character and remember where the rest are...nowhere.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Kimi has said that he has had a ton of advice which he puts straight into the bin, he does what he thinks and that's what gets him through.
If Max listened to some of the advice on here then he'd only have half the points he has now at this stage, what you fail to take on board f87 is that you cannot change a persons character and remember where the rest are...nowhere.

Thats rubbish though isn't it, Lewis often went for things that weren't on early in his career but change and evolved to go for the right moves most of the time. Yes he like other drives are human and can and do get things wrong but that is far less today than when he started racing.

Max on the other hand has been in more bad and dangerous situations this year than ever before. Maybe the team have given him unrealistic expectations on him that has applied pressure that makes the bad judgements.

Look at when he tagged Ocon in Brazil years ago as a back marker. He had lots to lose but his brain wouldn't let him, but to be the best it needs to.

To win you have to finish, you can be amazing but if you don't cross the line it doesn't matter a jot. Max could have won now if he had backed out of the Silverstone incident, exactly as Leclerc did in an IDENTICAL overtake but he didn't.

So we go into the final race, nobody quite clear what is or isn't allowed but its quite clear Max will try anything under the son to do 'Whatever it take regardless of the rules to win'.

And that is why many love him but also why neutrals and fans of other drives think he doesn't deserve to be winner because of the way he drives.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Thats rubbish though isn't it, Lewis often went for things that weren't on early in his career but change and evolved to go for the right moves most of the time. Yes he like other drives are human and can and do get things wrong but that is far less today than when he started racing.

Max on the other hand has been in more bad and dangerous situations this year than ever before. Maybe the team have given him unrealistic expectations on him that has applied pressure that makes the bad judgements.

Look at when he tagged Ocon in Brazil years ago as a back marker. He had lots to lose but his brain wouldn't let him, but to be the best it needs to.

To win you have to finish, you can be amazing but if you don't cross the line it doesn't matter a jot. Max could have won now if he had backed out of the Silverstone incident, exactly as Leclerc did in an IDENTICAL overtake but he didn't.

So we go into the final race, nobody quite clear what is or isn't allowed but its quite clear Max will try anything under the son to do 'Whatever it take regardless of the rules to win'.

And that is why many love him but also why neutrals and fans of other drives think he doesn't deserve to be winner because of the way he drives.

Ham has always had the superior car since '14 so it's easy for him to 'back out' and then he tries again on the straight and overtakes, easy peasy for him, the others haven't a chance so they do anything it takes to stay ahead knowing if he gets past then it's game over, does that make sense to you.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Ham has always had the superior car since '14 so it's easy for him to 'back out' and then he tries again on the straight and overtakes, easy peasy for him, the others haven't a chance so they do anything it takes to stay ahead knowing if he gets past then it's game over, does that make sense to you.

Drivers can't do anything regardless of the rules to stay ahead. How does it benefit Max to illegally overtake or defend only to be ordered to give the position back and also get a time penalty? It's that same mindset to break any rules to keep position and never ever yield a position to HAM which has prevented Max from winning the championship already.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by M2CS

Drivers can't do anything regardless of the rules to stay ahead. How does it benefit Max to illegally overtake or defend only to be ordered to give the position back and also get a time penalty? It's that same mindset to break any rules to keep position and never ever yield a position to HAM which has prevented Max from winning the championship already.

The rules have been piled on over the years especially since 2014 onwards to make it easy for Merc and harder for the rest and it's been said by many that Merc is let off many things, lately as stated on post 914.
Outgoing AR driver Kimi has said that F1 is now too political with Alonso backing that up confirming other drivers other than ham are treated differently by the gov body.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

The rules have been piled on over the years especially since 2014 onwards to make it easy for Merc and harder for the rest and it's been said by many that Merc is let off many things, lately as stated on post 914.
Outgoing AR driver Kimi has said that F1 is now too political with Alonso backing that up confirming other drivers other than ham are treated differently by the gov body.

You mean the way other drivers complained how Max received preferential treatment in Brazil?

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by M2CS

You mean the way other drivers complained how Max received preferential treatment in Brazil?

Funny they don't complain when your driver is let off many things..would to be 'we'll cut your Merc PU supply if you say anything against us' eh.