New Ytest
Sign out
Bimmerpost
Login
BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Today's Posts  
Go Back   BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-03-2023, 04:36 PM   #67
ASAP
Major General
ASAP's Avatar
11016
Rep
9,148
Posts

 
Drives: '23 X3 M40i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmyx6go View Post
I don't know where you get only 2 industries. Restaurants, corner stores, nail salons, hair salons, funeral parlors, catering halls.... Only the big stores like supermarkets and home improvement were open. Mom and pops were shut down tight. If I remember correctly, I couldn't even go to the eye doctor and dentist. Realtors couldn't show houses.

EDIT - If YOU owned a business, do you think you could survive without any income for 2-3 months and still pay your bills and stay afloat?
NYC as everyone knows was one of the most restrictive areas during Covid... the net result was folks left in droves. i can't dictate local policy...i hope we can all come to an agreement on best paths forward for the nation...

2nd statement - If not... you have major liquidity issue and need to consider your business because you are surviving on margin... do you think the govt would care about me as a personal saver and my income? not at all my friend...
__________________
2 x N54 -> 1 x N55 -> 1 x S55-> 1 x B58
Appreciate 0
      08-03-2023, 06:11 PM   #68
cmyx6go
Colonel
cmyx6go's Avatar
16943
Rep
2,092
Posts

 
Drives: 2022 X6///M Comp
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: NYC

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2019 X6 ///M  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
NYC as everyone knows was one of the most restrictive areas during Covid... the net result was folks left in droves. i can't dictate local policy...i hope we can all come to an agreement on best paths forward for the nation...

2nd statement - If not... you have major liquidity issue and need to consider your business because you are surviving on margin... do you think the govt would care about me as a personal saver and my income? not at all my friend...
I am fortunate. I have different businesses and although things got weird, we’re fine. You seem to think that all businesses are large corporations that have a shit ton of slush fund money and you have the screw the big, bad companies mindset. Many businesses are small. The owners bust their asses, make a living plus a little but could not bear a few months covering overhead without revenue coming in. Does that mean they don’t deserve to be in business? Does that mean they should go out of business because our government deemed them not essential? I’m guessing you work for someone and never owned a business. That’s fine, but don’t judge what you don’t know. And no disrespect intended. Just giving you a different view.
__________________
I thought I was a good person but the way I react when people drive slowly in the left lane would suggest otherwise
Appreciate 5
3798j13322.00
Bingham274.50
      08-03-2023, 06:19 PM   #69
2000cs
Captain
3954
Rep
1,003
Posts

 
Drives: Potato
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
The PPP program was not designed to require demonstrated financial hardship. Again, from Day 1 it was designed as a grant as long as criteria were met and a loan if they were not met. They called them “forgivable loans” and almost every company that applied for these did so with the expectation it would be a grant. They were not loans that were forgiven in a surprise move.

As I said, the wisdom of PPP is fair to debate. But student loans have always been designed to be repaid. That is not debatable and trying to justify forgiving loans after the fact by citing programs designed as grants or bailouts from the start is just a bad argument.
And the reason it was designed that way, and with pretty loose qualification rules, was to get the money out fast so that it would have the most impact. Congress accepted that there would be a lot of “free riders” (to be nice about it), to get speed and save the jobs that were intended. Imagine if the usual bunch of federal rules had been imposed: a new bureaucracy to evaluate applications, etc.

I wasn’t a fan of the PPP but I studied it pretty closely before recommending we not take it at my company.
Appreciate 1
RickFLM411916.00
      08-03-2023, 07:09 PM   #70
ASAP
Major General
ASAP's Avatar
11016
Rep
9,148
Posts

 
Drives: '23 X3 M40i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
And the reason it was designed that way, and with pretty loose qualification rules, was to get the money out fast so that it would have the most impact. Congress accepted that there would be a lot of “free riders” (to be nice about it), to get speed and save the jobs that were intended. Imagine if the usual bunch of federal rules had been imposed: a new bureaucracy to evaluate applications, etc.

I wasn’t a fan of the PPP but I studied it pretty closely before recommending we not take it at my company.
So again... it was not a truly evaluated program... just something mismashed... and ur right it had a major impact... we are paying for it now in the form of inflation.
__________________
2 x N54 -> 1 x N55 -> 1 x S55-> 1 x B58
Appreciate 0
      08-03-2023, 07:19 PM   #71
erickonphoenix
Captain
erickonphoenix's Avatar
2087
Rep
668
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 Gray 328xi Touring
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Houston TX

iTrader: (0)

I paid my way through college and technical training but really it was not nearly as expensive as it is today. If there were predatory loan practices then those institutions should be held accountable but if it's just a student loan then no.

My four years of college in 1992 cost me $2,000 a semester. A 2023 self couldn't touch it for that. My technical school was a low interest installment plan. $777 a month. Not easy but I got it done with room mates and a bus pass. I'm not sure if they do installments anymore but the same program is around $25k now.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-03-2023, 07:31 PM   #72
M-technik-3
Lieutenant Colonel
2529
Rep
1,692
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3, E36 M3, 328iT, 335i
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: western Ma

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1995 M3  [9.00]
2007 E91  [7.25]
1988 M3  [9.50]
I have different approach, for every !k you borrow then you need to do X amounts of real community service in set time frame of years and the penalty of not doing the work is pay that money back in 2 fold.

I paid the money back that I borrowed 25 years ago, while painful it was a debt I paid because I signed my name saying I would pay the money I had borrowed in good faith.
Appreciate 2
cmyx6go16942.50
      08-04-2023, 10:50 AM   #73
TheWatchGuy
Colonel
TheWatchGuy's Avatar
3930
Rep
2,548
Posts

 
Drives: 335xi
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: CO

iTrader: (0)

I always see a lot of talk about PPP loans or how college is free in other countries, but both of those have very little to do with Student Loan forgiveness in the USA.

For PPP loans, that was implemented to help with a government created mess, those businesses had no choice to get involved with. They didnt get the choice to shut down or stay open, they were told what they could/couldnt do. So it is completely different than a person making a choice to take on a loan to go to college.

For free college in other countries, again, its a different situation. My wife's family is from/lives in Germany. A couple of them got free college, a couple were put in the vocational tract and went to trade schools, a handful were basically told HS education is about the best youre gonna get and joined the military. From an early age, they were put in to different education programs, some that put them on the tract to university and some that werent. Theres a lot of nuance here, but essentially, from grade school on, they were told they would get to go to college or werent. Not everyone got the opportunity to go to college. It was decided by their teachers/government who did. There were also fairly stringent guidelines they needed to meet. If they didnt, they lost that opportunity. There is also a test at the end of their highschool that determines if you get in to college or not.

So if Americans are fine with the Government telling them who gets to go to college and what they get to study, sure, let the gov give free college out. Only about 30% of Germans end up going to college. Compared to the ~60% of Americans that go to college. There is a 0% chance the USA adopts a similar type system that allows free college for some, especially with how much college degrees have been pushed in our society for the last several decades.

End of the day, students took out these loans for college degrees. If you want to blame someone for the loans, blame the students, their family and their HS guidance counselors. Someone in their life should have explained what they are getting themselves in to. And i have 0 sympathy for people in the last decade that took on massive loans for terrible paying majors. All that data is easily accessible on the internet. With a quick google search, you can see average pay for your degree, top end/entry level pay, job openings and placement percentages, etc. There is no reason someone should say they had no idea their 6 figure college debt was going to result in a 50k/yr salary.
__________________
@drunkcowatches on ig

Am I a watch guy, or do i watch guys?
Appreciate 8
RickFLM411916.00
Tyga113545.00
zx10guy5555.00
Lady Jane84367.00
essejM362.00
3798j13322.00
Llarry22147.00
      08-04-2023, 11:17 AM   #74
Tyga11
Lieutenant Colonel
3545
Rep
1,762
Posts

 
Drives: M3 Comp
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Arizona

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
I always see a lot of talk about PPP loans or how college is free in other countries, but both of those have very little to do with Student Loan forgiveness in the USA.

For PPP loans, that was implemented to help with a government created mess, those businesses had no choice to get involved with. They didnt get the choice to shut down or stay open, they were told what they could/couldnt do. So it is completely different than a person making a choice to take on a loan to go to college.

For free college in other countries, again, its a different situation. My wife's family is from/lives in Germany. A couple of them got free college, a couple were put in the vocational tract and went to trade schools, a handful were basically told HS education is about the best youre gonna get and joined the military. From an early age, they were put in to different education programs, some that put them on the tract to university and some that werent. Theres a lot of nuance here, but essentially, from grade school on, they were told they would get to go to college or werent. Not everyone got the opportunity to go to college. It was decided by their teachers/government who did. There were also fairly stringent guidelines they needed to meet. If they didnt, they lost that opportunity. There is also a test at the end of their highschool that determines if you get in to college or not.

So if Americans are fine with the Government telling them who gets to go to college and what they get to study, sure, let the gov give free college out. Only about 30% of Germans end up going to college. Compared to the ~60% of Americans that go to college. There is a 0% chance the USA adopts a similar type system that allows free college for some, especially with how much college degrees have been pushed in our society for the last several decades.

End of the day, students took out these loans for college degrees. If you want to blame someone for the loans, blame the students, their family and their HS guidance counselors. Someone in their life should have explained what they are getting themselves in to. And i have 0 sympathy for people in the last decade that took on massive loans for terrible paying majors. All that data is easily accessible on the internet. With a quick google search, you can see average pay for your degree, top end/entry level pay, job openings and placement percentages, etc. There is no reason someone should say they had no idea their 6 figure college debt was going to result in a 50k/yr salary.
Nailed it. Thank you. Please close this thread with this being the last reply.
Appreciate 0
      08-04-2023, 11:27 AM   #75
c1pher
Primo Generalissimo
c1pher's Avatar
United_States
5056
Rep
4,205
Posts

 
Drives: All of them
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: DC area

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I do not agree with paying off someone's loans, but I also do not think universities should be gouging students. Part of the increase isn't just greed but the catering to professors who want to teach whatever, no future degree they want. Cutting out some of these degree programs would be a good start while also steering the students toward real bill paying jobs. I also think education loans should be capped at 1% above prime or something like that. The loans these people have are downright usurious.
Appreciate 0
      08-04-2023, 11:29 AM   #76
c1pher
Primo Generalissimo
c1pher's Avatar
United_States
5056
Rep
4,205
Posts

 
Drives: All of them
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: DC area

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyga11 View Post
Nailed it. Thank you. Please close this thread with this being the last reply.
I don't think the Government should be telling people if they can achieve higher learning or not. Sure Germany does it because they are somewhat socialist. That's not Merica.
Appreciate 0
      08-04-2023, 12:17 PM   #77
zx10guy
Brigadier General
5555
Rep
3,353
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 135i
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by c1pher View Post
I do not agree with paying off someone's loans, but I also do not think universities should be gouging students. Part of the increase isn't just greed but the catering to professors who want to teach whatever, no future degree they want. Cutting out some of these degree programs would be a good start while also steering the students toward real bill paying jobs. I also think education loans should be capped at 1% above prime or something like that. The loans these people have are downright usurious.
Ha. The rates for current student loans are nothing compared what I had to pay for mine. The cheapest which was only a quarter of the total I had to pay back was 5%. The main loan which was a Stafford was at 8%. And I had to take out a supplemental loan for a small amount at 9%.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
We might not be in an agreement on Trump, but I'll be the first penis chaser here to say I'll rather take it up in the ass than to argue with you on this.
Appreciate 2
RickFLM411916.00
c1pher5056.00
      08-04-2023, 12:44 PM   #78
RickFLM4
Brigadier General
RickFLM4's Avatar
United_States
11916
Rep
4,875
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: PB County, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Ha. The rates for current student loans are nothing compared what I had to pay for mine. The cheapest which was only a quarter of the total I had to pay back was 5%. The main loan which was a Stafford was at 8%. And I had to take out a supplemental loan for a small amount at 9%.
Once I consolidated mine from the mid-late 1980s the rate on the consolidated loan was 9% on the equivalent of around $60K in 2023 dollars. It was tough at first and took 15+ years to payoff, but it worked out because I picked a major that had earnings upside as my career progressed.
__________________
Current: 2018 SO/SS F83 ZCP
Gone: 2015 SO/SO F82
Appreciate 3
c1pher5056.00
cmyx6go16942.50
zx10guy5555.00
      08-04-2023, 02:01 PM   #79
freakystyly
Colonel
3690
Rep
2,031
Posts

 
Drives: F22 B58 6MT
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Goes back to basic financing and things like doing your taxes, paying bills not being mentioned throughout early schooling. When you're 17-18 and picking college courses, you don't have a clue about the adult life treadmill that you'll soon be on. You're told, get a good job or go to higher education... have fun, see you never!
Appreciate 0
      08-04-2023, 02:13 PM   #80
M-technik-3
Lieutenant Colonel
2529
Rep
1,692
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3, E36 M3, 328iT, 335i
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: western Ma

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1995 M3  [9.00]
2007 E91  [7.25]
1988 M3  [9.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by c1pher View Post
I don't think the Government should be telling people if they can achieve higher learning or not. Sure Germany does it because they are somewhat socialist. That's not Merica.
They are allowed to attend just not on the state's Euro.
Appreciate 0
      08-04-2023, 03:02 PM   #81
allinon72
Brigadier General
allinon72's Avatar
United_States
5069
Rep
3,859
Posts

 
Drives: 20' M2C, 23' X1
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Indianapolis, IN

iTrader: (3)

Don't cancel a single dollar until the ROOT CAUSE is addressed! Or we'll be canceling debt every 10 years.

The Federal government essentially took over the student loan market and open up the taps. Kids were brainwashed for decades under the notion that they were a failure if they didn't go to college.

Of course, the gubment is never interested in actually solving the problem. Because they created the problem, to benefit someone, and that someone is not the ordinary citizen.
Appreciate 7
c1pher5056.00
jmack548.50
2000cs3954.00
Llarry22147.00
zx10guy5555.00
Donatello.1283.00
      08-13-2023, 01:37 PM   #82
tturedraider
Major General
tturedraider's Avatar
United_States
5739
Rep
6,656
Posts

 
Drives: 2018 340i M Sport
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago, Edgewater (via Texas & Tennessee)

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai of 2day View Post
All US Military branches offer Student Loan Repayment Programs and Tuition Assistance. Even the reserve components

If citizens want higher education but can't afford it, have 'em sign up, serve a few years to earn the aforementioned benefits and learn some personal discipline, self accountability, understand how contribution to greater cause works, and gain a sense of personal responsibility.

Productivity, all around.
I started college with no idea what direction I was going and I did pretty poorly. I’m fairly smart, but I’m a terrible student, especially when I don’t have a clear focus for what I’m doing. When I finally gave up my GPA was less than a 2.0.

After several years I joined the Army and specifically chose an MOS that offered the Army College Fund. I served on active duty for four years.

When I got out of the Army I went back to school. Both times I went to a state school where I got in-state tuition. I made that choice because it was not financially reasonable for me to attend the private school I would have liked to attend. I finished my degree in two years. My post Army GPA was a 3.6+. The Army College Fund paid me $900/month while school was in session. The post 9/11 college benefits are MUCH better than the old college fund.

Joining the Army was the single best decision I’ve ever made in my life. 35 years later I am still enjoying the benefits of being a veteran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTF View Post
Nothing is "cancelled", debt is simply transferred to the taxpayer to buy votes. Fairness has no place in this scheme.....only more corruption from an incompetent administration. I currently live in a state where corruption is an art.
I wish this wasn’t so true!! I’ve lived a few places in my life and the corruption in Illinois is beyond my ability to comprehend. I’ve never seen anything like it anywhere. I love Chicago (in spite of the mind boggling corruption here), but I’ve never hated any state as much as I hate Illinois.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post

So if Americans are fine with the Government telling them who gets to go to college and what they get to study, sure, let the gov give free college out. Only about 30% of Germans end up going to college. Compared to the ~60% of Americans that go to college. There is a 0% chance the USA adopts a similar type system that allows free college for some, especially with how much college degrees have been pushed in our society for the last several decades.
Just for clarity. A large percentage of Americans may start college, but only about 33% actually graduate with at least a bachelor’s degree. For years it was very stable at 27% and has only begun increasing in the last number of years. I’m beginning to think most of that increase is due to the colleges graduating students who have no business graduating.
__________________
https://youtu.be/-ay-8p2p29w
www.bmwcca.org
member #388003 - Use me as a referral
& you could win a one day ///M Driving School!!

___________________________________________
Appreciate 5
Llarry22147.00
cmyx6go16942.50
vreihen1621678.00
3798j13322.00
      08-13-2023, 04:40 PM   #83
ezaircon4jc
Major General
ezaircon4jc's Avatar
United_States
5551
Rep
5,762
Posts

 
Drives: 2019 540i M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (0)

To answer the original question, the same reason my mortgage (or auto, cc, etc.) shouldn't be "cancelled."
Appreciate 5
cmyx6go16942.50
vreihen1621678.00
Tyga113545.00
      08-14-2023, 07:26 AM   #84
plutnicki
Private First Class
73
Rep
182
Posts

 
Drives: 2024 M8C Coupe & 2019 X3 M40i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Hampshire

iTrader: (0)

I would say the big difference is that no bank will give an 18 year old with no job a mortgage, or a loan for a $100k car, and yet they can get financed to get a $150k loan to become a teacher making $30 - $40k/year or worse. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't believe in forgiveness either, but going through this process with my youngest (luckily he won't need loans), I can see how poorly the process is managed and how poorly the kids are counseled. I can see how kids get taken advantage of, particularly if they don't have strong support, which not all do.
__________________
2024 M8C Coupe - Sapphire Black
2019 X3 M40 - Phytonic Blue (wife's)
Appreciate 1
ASAP11016.00
      08-14-2023, 11:51 AM   #85
ASAP
Major General
ASAP's Avatar
11016
Rep
9,148
Posts

 
Drives: '23 X3 M40i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by plutnicki View Post
I would say the big difference is that no bank will give an 18 year old with no job a mortgage, or a loan for a $100k car, and yet they can get financed to get a $150k loan to become a teacher making $30 - $40k/year or worse. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't believe in forgiveness either, but going through this process with my youngest (luckily he won't need loans), I can see how poorly the process is managed and how poorly the kids are counseled. I can see how kids get taken advantage of, particularly if they don't have strong support, which not all do.
part of the problem is the propaganda that everyone was fed that they absolutely needed to go to college to have a job no matter what... so everyone is just supposed to get in debt to have a job they can't pay this off with?
__________________
2 x N54 -> 1 x N55 -> 1 x S55-> 1 x B58
Appreciate 3
zx10guy5555.00
///MPhatic15569.00
Llarry22147.00
      08-14-2023, 12:42 PM   #86
dreamingat30fps
Colonel
United_States
5997
Rep
2,039
Posts

 
Drives: Miata, Cayenne, Model 3, F350
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Florida & NC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by plutnicki View Post
I would say the big difference is that no bank will give an 18 year old with no job a mortgage, or a loan for a $100k car, and yet they can get financed to get a $150k loan to become a teacher making $30 - $40k/year or worse. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't believe in forgiveness either, but going through this process with my youngest (luckily he won't need loans), I can see how poorly the process is managed and how poorly the kids are counseled. I can see how kids get taken advantage of, particularly if they don't have strong support, which not all do.
I'm sure if their rich parents cosign for the car loan the kid could get it.

Unfortunately when it comes to student loans WE are the cosigners. Absolutley no incentive for the college to give 2 shits if they can actually pay the loan or not because the college will get it's money regardless.
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2023, 12:45 PM   #87
ZL9M2
First Lieutenant
401
Rep
321
Posts

 
Drives: '17 M2 ZL9-'20 M2CS-'68 1600
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Wisconsin

iTrader: (1)

I feel no obligation at all. First off, maybe if it was just as easy to get a small business loan as it was to get a student loan we could talk.

If a student is willing to work during the summer and school year there is no way you should be any more than $20k to maybe $50k in debt for a public four year education. These people with $100k, $150k in student loan debt for a basket weaving degree get no sympathy from me. I'm not in charge of that stupidity.

I've had two kids graduate and two still in college and we've managed to do this with minimal debt. But they work all year and that money goes to their schooling.

And stop with the bullshit PPP/student loan comparisons.
Appreciate 1
      08-14-2023, 01:34 PM   #88
RobotDoctor
Professional Nomad
RobotDoctor's Avatar
682
Rep
131
Posts

 
Drives: 2019 440i F36 Sportline
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: Florida's first coast

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
If the government wants to give people their student loan money back I'm all for it, as long as it's everyone that has ever had a student loan. And then, of course, pay back all those long hours everybody else put in so they didn't have to get a loan. I'd be good with that.
Agreed! Some of us worked during college and/or looked into the "secret society of college money" and applied for grants and scholarships to supplement working to earn income and paid off our college debt before we graduated. Of course I went to a technical college for two years. I sacrificed then because I knew starting out it would be tough to pay later. I earned a degree in a field that I knew would offer me a terrific platform for employment, and it has. I went to college to gain a skill that would produce viable employment in a field that would support myself and my family. I work in the industrial robotics industry focused on the manufacturing sector and have been doing this for over 34 years. I am fortunate in that I can actually work for myself and make a decent living but none of this would be possible if I majored in a subject in college that had virtually zero chance of obtaining a viable job and establishing a realistic, and financially rewarding career out of it.

Problem with the government giving people their student loan back is that this is a false narrative. The government never gives anything for free. Some one will pay those loans and that will be all of us through higher taxes. I did the responsible thing and worked my tail off for funding and paid my college off before I graduated, never asking anyone to help fund my debt. With respects to all who got loans to go to college, I was never consulted in what the student majored and graduated in so why should I be on the hook to pay back their loan?
Appreciate 3
Post Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:34 PM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST