frustrating tire changes

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Onesie

Agree on anti-seize on the rotor hat surface/hub lip where the wheel mounts. Sometimes it’s the only way to remove the wheel after a few seasons.
Against anti-seize on the bolts. You don’t want these backing out.

Also on the camp of “which friction does the rotor need with the wheel” with 5 bolts tightened with 120Nm…

You may find pages 2 and 3 of this thread interesting regarding the role of the bolts and surfaces. There are a few other similar discussions on other places on the Internet.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/....495227/page-2

I’m not saying you are going to destroy your bolts if you lube that surface with anti-seize, but they are not designed to handle bending loads. It’s obvious that the friction of the wheel and hub fit is what transmits the force once clamped and it is important. I am going to guess there is a reason that Porsche explicitly tells you not to lubricate this interface. Probably not a practical issue since the coefficient of friction will still be high enough, but it’s not as ridiculous as it sounds.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...-and-its-wheel

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I think this is right but just in case:
so the door jamb tire pressure label says 36psi front and 42 rear, but that's was for my staggered 225/255 set...now that my winters are a square set, I assume that the psi is the same throughout @36psi? What takes precedence, I always thought it depends on the tire size?

In case anyone hasn't already noticed, BMW (in NA) lists only fully-loaded tire-pressure specs. Older cars showed different pressures for one-driver, more passengers, and full capacity with luggage. No longer. What is presented is only the fully-loaded pressure which usually shows a marked increase in the rear over the front spec. It has nothing to do with what it best, what you prefer, which handles better, etc. Instead it is simply a CYA for legal purposes.

[Wolf 335]

I personally never had issues with removing bolts, and I do 3 cars twice a year (winter and summer).
I do it by hand with a breaker bar.

If new tires are being fitted i usually take the wheels to the shop with another car.
Reason being is that I like to clean the rotor face, the hub lip, wheel center bore and bolts.

Depending on the condition I would hit it with either a plastic, brass or steel wire brush.
If bolts have any corrosion on threads, I would run the threads through the drill wire brush.

Only place I put antiseize on is the rotor face and hub lip, and I make sure none of it gets onto any threads.

I torque the wheels to 100 ft-lbs with a torque wrench.

Never trust that a tire shop did the torque right. They hire cheap labor, the job sucks, and the guys working there could give a damn about your torque.
Almost all the time when I watch them work, the method of using the torque wrench is wrong. They hit the bolts with the gun and then check with the torque wrench.
If its over torqued (which it is in most cases) the torque wrench is not gonna tell you that, but rather click and in their eyes that is confirms the correct torque.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by tranquility

My winters is a square set so all of them are 225.

In theory you'd run 36 psi front and rear. I personally always run an extra psi in the tires that are under the engine, even in an AWD car, as it causes the tire to deform less.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Tx, this chart makes me more confused as they state the same psi for staggered sets and different psi for square sets...what the...?

Someone pls help.

I vote 32 F 33 R unless you’re loading the trunk with bags of concrete and driving fast.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Piper1

Interesting on this and in the discussion no one’s mentioned WHEN to check/add air. Cold climate car sitting all night tires will be lower pressure vs when you’ve just gotten back from driving. If you start at warm with 32 chances are early morning way to work here your tires will be around 28ish since in the discussion here it’s related to winter season tires.

It’s always cold. I didn’t think that needed clarification. Usually if people are talking hot like on track they say hot.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by StanDiego

Yes, not likely to get one in a forum. I don't care to debate, just sharing info from the car manufacturer. Feel free to take it or leave it. The car manufacturer has reasons to post those figures for what they consider to be an average driver and likely for their own protection. It's not possible for those figures to be the best for everyone and every situation.

Asking for recommendations on wheel alignment would elicit similar debate. Do you want best performance, most comfortable ride, reduced tramlining, longest tread life, etc.? Even then, you'll have debate.

As for me, I go with the car manufacturer's recommendation until I have a good reason to differ, whether that be from personal experience or reasonable contrary evidence. There's plenty of contrary evidence. Good luck determining what's reasonable.

Tx, and that's my prb, there is no 'by the book' at least I can't find anything in my manual as it only addressed staggered sets and not square ones.

Since I'm in my winters, I'm not looking to burn up lap times, just want the most safe/effective psi setting(s) for a 225 square set. I'm kinda surprised that there doesn't seem to be any clear consensus.

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

In theory you'd run 36 psi front and rear.

That seems to be my logical assumption as well. The winter tires are all the same size, even though I'm obviously RWD. I found it odd most (all?) shops took the door jamb label as gospel and do the F36 and R42 no matter what, even though it is only talking about a staggered set there...now, whether this is expanded to apply to square sets is the crazy controversy, apparently.

Originally Posted by chris719

I vote 32 F 33 R unless you’re loading the trunk with bags of concrete and driving fast.

I dunno, that's really low from what my manual says (but, unfortunately, it only talks about staggered, so F36 and R42).

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by tranquility

How many of you guys change your own tires and can give me any advice? Maybe sometimes the bolts being stuck is unavoidable?

Remove tire and wheel.

Stick in second car with replacement tire. Take to tire change dealer, etc. Get tire changed. Take tire back home, reinstall.

This was recently reiterated to MYSELF when I had developed trust with one place.

So, I took M5 CS with wheels with 5mm spacer up front, and VERY DISTINCTIVE 5mm longer bolts in the front wheels (the heads are solid and tall).

Mr. TireChanger removed all four wheels and (apparently) put all bolts in giant bucket. After changing tires, returned to car, and put whatever bolt he pulled out first in. All 10 extended bolts were distributed about the car, front and back with no regard for where the spacers were.

Great. Back to the routine above.

Shawn

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Remove tire and wheel.

Stick in second car with replacement tire. Take to tire change dealer, etc. Get tire changed. Take tire back home, reinstall.

This was recently reiterated to MYSELF when I had developed trust with one place.

So, I took M5 CS with wheels with 5mm spacer up front, and VERY DISTINCTIVE 5mm longer bolts in the front wheels (the heads are solid and tall).

Mr. TireChanger removed all four wheels and (apparently) put all bolts in giant bucket. After changing tires, returned to car, and put whatever bolt he pulled out first in. All 10 extended bolts were distributed about the car, front and back with no regard for where the spacers were.

Great. Back to the routine above.

Shawn

Yup, ideally that's the case but this is my only car and it can only carry 2 tire at a time. So, for me the best I can do is repeat ad naseum my tq rating to those guys.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Piper1

Oh I remember when my e85 was my only car and considered something like this.
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=971565

Always stole my wife’s wrangler when needing to pack in tires/wheels so never did it but damn still tempting

My car's surprisingly practical for 2 ppl save for these very specific instances. I don't think that my car even has a tow hook possibility, not that I would want one in any event.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by chris719

I agree, but it just feels wrong to grease that surface IMO. People also tend to use too much and it can squeeze out etc.

Agree, people tend to over use the product. There is an argument that misapplying anti-seize to the rotor hat could lead to an uneven surface and prevent the wheel hub face from flatly sitting on the face of the rotor hat.

Most rotors are now treated with a surface finish to prevent rust. If I use anti-seize on my wheels, it's just a small amount on the lip of the hub-centric ring.

[rice_rocket88]

I've had some chuckles reading this over the last 2 days.. but tranquility: Spend the $20-$40 or so to get yourself a nice breaker bar to undo the overtightened lug nuts. Heck, your car should have come with a factory lug wrench even if it doesn't have a spare tire. Put that on and do the balance and bounce up and down until it pops loose (but breaker bar is definitely better and safer). Sounds like your car is in good shape, I know Montreal uses salt and gravel on the road.. but it still shouldn't gunk up your threads. With that being said.. yes never ever use any lube or anti-seize unless you really do need to clean your bolts. It really will throw off the torque etc because almost always people use too much, and it wasn't designed for that anyways. I have had a stubborn lug or two that the plug in electric can't handle. It is also good to note the actual stats may be inch/lb or nm, which isn't ft/lb. Breakaway and torque are also different. I just sprung for an m12 FUEL a few months ago, and boy is that little bugger powerful, I tested it to 140ft/lb on my bench because I was actually going to buy the 1/2" stubby gun after (that puts out even more power). But for now I'm just going to use this. I have TONS of tools including the old school plug in, and sometimes I still use the breaker bar on friends and family's lug nuts. (or other work I'm doing.. it's an invaluable tool).

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I think this is right but just in case:
so the door jamb tire pressure label says 36psi front and 42 rear, but that's was for my staggered 225/255 set...now that my winters are a square set, I assume that the psi is the same throughout @36psi? What takes precedence, I always thought it depends on the tire size?

Anyway, really surprised there's no consensus about this, I thought it would be like if a guy has mismatched feet, one is size 8 and the other 10, so the logical thing is to buy 2 shoes in sizes 8 and 10, but some ppl are saying, no just get a pair of size 8s or 10s.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Anyway, really surprised there's no consensus about this, I thought it would be like if a guy has mismatched feet, one is size 8 and the other 10, so the logical thing is to buy 2 shoes in sizes 8 and 10, but some ppl are saying, no just get a pair of size 8s or 10s.

My oldest son has this problem, one foot is a size 10, the other a size 11. We buy him size 11's.

On my cars, I run higher pressure up front to match or nearly match the rears as I've found this increases tread life, and the tradeoffs are worth it to me.

There are trade offs to every decision when it comes to pressures, so that's why you get so many "correct" answers that are also different.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

My oldest son has this problem, one foot is a size 10, the other a size 11. We buy him size 11's.

On my cars, I run higher pressure up front to match or nearly match the rears as I've found this increases tread life, and the tradeoffs are worth it to me.

There are trade offs to every decision when it comes to pressures, so that's why you get so many "correct" answers that are also different.

Ok, but I've rarely experienced any premature wear and stated that my main criterion is safety for my winters. I don't care about tread wear, performance or other factors. So, surely there should be a more narrow range of answers?

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Ok, but I've rarely experienced any premature wear and stated that my main criterion is safety for my winters. I don't care about tread wear, performance or other factors. So, surely there should be a more narrow range of answers?

Is safety measured by :not blowing out tires, or slipping from uneven wear from under inflation, or : not slipping in a corner from stiff sidewalls due to over inflation? Your single criteria is not going to yield a single best answer. We aren't being difficult, it just a complex relationship.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Is safety measured by :not blowing out tires, or slipping from uneven wear from under inflation, or : not slipping in a corner from stiff sidewalls due to over inflation? Your single criteria is not going to yield a single best answer. We aren't being difficult, it just a complex relationship.

Safety in terms of having the best grip/tire being most effective above all else. It really shouldn't be all that complicated esp when we're talking about winters. For example, I don't mind at all and in fact prefer that they are RFTs, because the performance aspect is thrown out the window for me when it comes to winters.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Safety in terms of having the best grip/tire being most effective above all else. It really shouldn't be all that complicated esp when we're talking about winters. For example, I don't mind at all and in fact prefer that they are RFTs, because the performance aspect is thrown out the window for me when it comes to winters.

Run lower pressure, you'll get a softer more compliant side wall which helps with shock-load lateral traction-slippage (no idea what else to call it). It will also increase contact patch.

The trade off is it will shorten the life of the tire, and will make handling soft and spongey by comparison. It may also get louder road noise, but may not, there are other factors in play on that one.

If the specs call for split pressures F/R, favor the lower one. Use a simple ratio formula on their width to check your target numbers.

[tranquility]

I guess I'll have to do more testing. I drive pretty conservatively in winter, so I don't think my changing the psi will make too much tangible difference since I'm within the acceptable range anyway and knock wood I've always managed to control my car even when I hit a black patch of ice, etc.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I dunno, that's really low from what my manual says (but, unfortunately, it only talks about staggered, so F36 and R42).

I thought the table someone pasted earlier showed lower pressures, the 36/42 was for the >100 MPH or heavy load scenario?

Anyway, my recommendation is based on the fact that I owned an E85 Z4M roadster, which weighs slightly more than a 3.0si I think, and it recommends 32/32 F/R on the door jamb stock. I ran 225 square winter tires for years like that. Can't say I tried playing around with it, though. BMWs that come with RFT tires seem to have high recommended pressures, so if you are using a non-RFT winter tire I might be tempted to use the M pressure since it comes with non RFT tires.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by chris719

I thought the table someone pasted earlier showed lower pressures, the 36/42 was for the >100 MPH or heavy load scenario?

Anyway, my recommendation is based on the fact that I owned an E85 Z4M roadster, which weighs slightly more than a 3.0si I think, and it recommends 32/32 F/R on the door jamb stock. I ran 225 square winter tires for years like that. Can't say I tried playing around with it, though. BMWs that come with RFT tires seem to have high recommended pressures, so if you are using a non-RFT winter tire I might be tempted to use the M pressure since it comes with non RFT tires.

Ya, but please remember that my E89 is a porker compared to your E85, so I assume that the higher PSI is warranted lol.

I recall from my manual that the F36/R42 was for reg speeds not just >100mph but anyway it doesn't really apply here because they are specific to a staggered setup of 225/255 18" and my winters are a square RFT 225 17".

[chris719]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Ya, but please remember that my E89 is a porker compared to your E85, so I assume that the higher PSI is warranted lol.

I recall from my manual that the F36/R42 was for reg speeds not just >100mph but anyway it doesn't really apply here because they are specific to a staggered setup of 225/255 18" and my winters are a square RFT 225 17".

My bad, I didn’t realize it was an E89. Disregard my advice on that then.