Fake Watches -- Does it really matter?

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by RR-NYC

I really don't understand why people buy and wear fakes or counterfeit products.

From beginning to end, fake/counterfeit products are made to deceive people for one reason or another.

People who make them are stealing the name and design or the people or corporation who owns the applicable trademarks, copyrights, patents, etc.

People who buy them are [attempting to]deceive everyone around them by wearing/using it. If you are wearing a "Rolex" that wasn't made by Rolex, it's a counterfeit. The person wearing it knows this yet they are trying to pass it off as the original. Even if they are quick to admit it's a fake, why would they patronize a business that has no regard to the work of another?

For some, they may want a Rolex look without paying the Rolex price but there are plenty of watch manufacturers that have copied designs of Rolex without using the name. If it's the name they want, then that comes at a price.

People can argue whether watches are worth it's price. Thats fine with me - it might not be worth it to some but there are plenty that find the value in its name and price. It doesn't have to equal the cost of raw goods, it could have 800% markup and it still doesn't matter.

Like the Picasso napkin story, a company like Rolex has "earned" their right to charge their prices because the movement, the materials, and the brand command a premium price.

TY for sharing your thoughts and pointing out a germane factor pertaining to fake watches. You've answered the question I've asked and I don't expect more than that. The statutory basis for your eschewing fakes is certainly a sound one and one for which there is no real counter.

The legal aspects you point out are real and well worth considering by anyone who is of a mind to buy such things. There's no question of the illegality associated with making and selling counterfeit watches. It is the legality of the matter that prevents me from specifically recommending anyone buy them, regardless of my insouciance about encountering them on folks' wrists.

The only thought I can offer for consideration is that concerning the watch industry's opportunistic approach to taking action against companies that the authentic makers see as infringing on their duly earned trademark rights. I have seen only one instance where legitimate holders of trademarks bring suit against the most egregious violators of those rights.

• Bulgari: In this suit, Bulgari last month filed suit in the U.S. against a swarm of Chinese companies and individuals. Bulgari ask that the defendants be denied all means of selling promoting their watches. Bulgari also ask for $2M. (page 18 and following in the complaint itself.
  
  This is the first case I've seen brought against Chinese makers of fake watches. http://gbcinternetenforcement.net/14-836
  • The Complaint: http://gbcinternetenforcement.net/fi.../COMPLAINT.PDF
  • The Defendants (http://gbcinternetenforcement.net/fi.../SCHEDULEA.PDF

I would imagine there are others, but the fact is that there are billions of people in the PRC. This lawsuit does nothing to really stop the counterfeiting and it does nothing to prevent anyone from buying the things. At best, all it does is cause these folks to use new domain names and new business names. The suit needs to be brought and won in the PRC if it is to have any real impact. I have my doubts about whether the defendants will even show up in court or whether they can even be found for service.

That Bulgari brought suit in the US against primarily Chinese based offenders is what I'm getting at when I say the companies that own authentic trademarks don't seem to be doing more than making a token effort at defending their trademark rights. Don't make more of that than there actually is to it.

As I understand it, one aspect of U.S. trademark law is that an owner of such rights must show a pattern of defending its rights. If a company like Bulgari or Rolex or IBM, for that matter, allows to go unaddressed too many affronts against its rights, the courts may opt to deny their claims of infringement. But filing a suit that is little more than a bunch of paperwork such as the one described above is sufficient to show a pattern of consistent defense of one's rights. Then one is on firmer footing when one finds a deep pocketed defendant.

More often, one can find suits being brought against well funded Western companies. These lawsuits that AP brought are quite typical.

• Overview: http://www.nationaljeweler.com/watch...al--2285.shtml
  • The Court's Opinion: http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal...9218/165/0.pdf . I think it was in this opinion that I learned of a company's need to show a trend of defending its trademark rights.
• Overview: http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/audemar...and-movado-for

Here are the offending watches.


Swiss Watch International



Tommy Hilfiger




You can check out Audemars Piguet's website to see the full line of RO models, but here one. Now to my eye, even casually, the SWI and Tommy watches don't look enough like a Royal Oak to me that I would have ruled in AP's favor. IMO, there are far closer copies that don't even remotely pretend not to be replicas of the RO. And yet, the makers of those companies are out there thriving.




As you may have seen earlier in this thread, I don't encourage ordering fakes over the Internet. Buying them specifically in the PRC is something of a different matter. The fact is that doing that there doesn't break any Chinese laws. Like it or not, we are all subject to the laws of the nation in which we find ourselves, unless one has diplomatic immunity. Bringing such items out of China is a different matter and one does so at one's own risk.

As far as understanding why folks buy fakes, well there are some reasons that aren't hard to to grasp if one knows of them.

• To get a sense of whether the look is indeed appealing.
• To have a cheap version of an expensive watch to wear when the risk of theft is high
• To buy the least expensive thing one can that looks good
• To experience wearing a look that can only be had by spending vastly greater sums (granted this doesn't apply to a lot of watches)
• To pretend to have the authentic article, in short, to deceive. Though I know this motivation is firmly in the mind of some folks who buy fakes, I never have had any sound basis for asserting when and for whom it is and isn't. That is to say, nobody has ever represented to me that their fake watch is indeed authentic and I had specific evidence to know it wasn't. Therefore, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt on this one because there really isn't anything for me to gain, regardless of whether I can in fact prove to them or to my own satisfaction that the watch is a fake.

Sidebar Thought:
I'm aware of the slippery slope regarding ignoring laws, yet the matter of fake watches seems in terms of its scope and practical realities, to be yet another effectively "victimless" crime. I'm not particularly concerned about the existence and practice of the world's oldest profession any more than I am about fake watches on the wrist of the occasional fellow here and there. Indeed, my preference would be to find and implement ways to overcome the things that motivate folks to buy such things rather than to take with with the things themselves.


All the best.

[paprmkr]

i don't have fake watches but don't care what other wear. i don't own top$$$ watches either as others have named some that i never heard of before. i just like my Fossil, Bulova's is my favorite and my BMW watch. there was a post of what we wear driving our cars. well i have lots of BMW motorsport from Puma. son in law works for Puma. hats, jackets, shorts. lots of shoes..... that what i wear for meets...hahahaha

[SenorFunkyPants]

I don't think Rolex have earned a right to charge $10,000 for a $1,000 watch they are simply charging what they can get away with - how much how Rolex watches gone up in recent years?.
Its no different than paying $2000 for a designer handbag made in some Asian sweatshop for $50. You are buying the right to ostentatiously display your wealth by owning an expensive object whose value is defined by a combination of letters engraved on it.
If you owned a glorious piece of art for years and gained massive enjoyment from it and then found out it was a fake would you like it less? ie is the pleasure you get from owning something based on its intrinsic worth or its exclusivity and its monetary worth?
I have to say I couldn't bring myself to pay $$big for a watch....I think it must be the Scottish in me.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I don't think Rolex have earned a right to charge $10,000 for a $1,000 watch they are simply charging what they can get away with - how much how Rolex watches gone up in recent years?.
...
If you owned a glorious piece of art for years and gained massive enjoyment from it and then found out it was a fake would you like it less? ie is the pleasure you get from owning something based on its intrinsic worth or its exclusivity and its monetary worth?
I have to say I couldn't bring myself to pay $$big for a watch....I think it must be the Scottish in me.

Answering your question:
No, I wouldn't like it less, but I would be pissed that I spent a ton of money on something that isn't what it purported to be. The only thing about fakes that bothers me has to do with a seller passing them of as authentic and charging me for the as such. A fake sold as a fake doesn't bother me in the least, aside from legal considerations.

The Scottish in you:
Don't tell the McGonigle Brothers how you feel.

All the best.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by tony20009

• To get a sense of whether the look is indeed appealing.
• To have a cheap version of an expensive watch to wear when the risk of theft is high
• To buy the least expensive thing one can that looks good
• To experience wearing a look that can only be had by spending vastly greater sums (granted this doesn't apply to a lot of watches)
• To pretend to have the authentic article, in short, to deceive.

As a buyer of a couple of fakes and a decent IWC replica I thought I could give some insight...but it really is quite difficult to say.
1/ Partly true, I bought a Panerai, a Rolex and the IWC to see which I liked best. I sold the Rolex cheap to someone who already had a real one and wanted it for a daily wearer. I gave the Panerai away to a friend who really liked it and I kept the IWC because I preferred the look.
2/ No
3/ Not really there are a million affordable watches that look good that I could buy.
4/ Yes maybe this.
5/ No. Relatively few people even know who IWC are or that they are expensive and no has as yet asked me or are likely to ask if my watch is real.

Even in the days when I was earning mental money and my contemporaries were buying Rolexs or similar I stuck with a relatively cheap watch.
I think my motive for buying a "fake" watch was to have a nice looking watch but was only prepared to pay what I thought it was was worth.
In the end its all about worth. I spend a fortune on cars because of the pleasure I get from driving - I just don't get the same from owning a watch.

[RR-NYC]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I don't think Rolex have earned a right to charge $10,000 for a $1,000 watch they are simply charging what they can get away with - how much how Rolex watches gone up in recent years?.
Its no different than paying $2000 for a designer handbag made in some Asian sweatshop for $50. You are buying the right to ostentatiously display your wealth by owning an expensive object whose value is defined by a combination of letters engraved on it.
If you owned a glorious piece of art for years and gained massive enjoyment from it and then found out it was a fake would you like it less? ie is the pleasure you get from owning something based on its intrinsic worth or its exclusivity and its monetary worth?
I have to say I couldn't bring myself to pay $$big for a watch....I think it must be the Scottish in me.

Just so I understand this correctly...

You don't think Rolex has earned the right to charge $10,000 for a watch so you buy counterfeits to fool people into believing that you paid $10,000 for a watch.

Is that correct?

There are plenty of watches that have a Rolex look that aren't counterfeit and don't infringe trademarks. Why not by those?

As far as your point about owning and enjoying a piece of art is interesting. There is a difference between buying a piece of art for the love of art and the artist and buying art as an investment. Below a certain value, there is no such thing as real or fake. In art, real or fake comes into play when an artist name is brought into it.

Let's say you paid $1M for a Picasso and found out its fake. Regardless of whether you bought it for the love of art or as an investment, its worthless because it's not art and has no value. So yes, I would like it less. In fact I would hate it.

[8k3]

Thanks Tony

Originally Posted by tony20009

I have no idea. You'd have to check the watch forums that exist for folks keen on fakes.

If you go to Hong Kong, and have a visa allowing you entry to the PRC, I can tell you where to go and get really good quality fakes for $25-$50.

The city to go to is Shenzhen and the area you want to check out is Luohu. There, you'll find "shopping buildings" which are huge, multi-story buildings that have literally thousands of ateliers of folks making fake everything along with stuff of their own invention. You'll also find some really good tailors there who can make you some sweet shirts. (They make good suits too, but I doubt as a vacationer you'll be there long enough to wait for them to finish it.)

There is a pseudo-company called Parnis who make what are essentially fake Rolexes and Panerais, but they put the Parnis name on them. (they replicate other brands' styles too) They do sell via the WWW. I must be clear, however, that I've never bought anything from them and I haven't ever seen one in person. I just know of their existence. The popular watch forums have members who have bought things from Parnis and you can probably find some good info there.

I also have to say that I've never ordered a replica watch over the WWW and I don't know what Customs issues you may face if they are shipped from outside the U.S. Any risk in that regard -- Customs will seize things that they think are fraudulent goods -- is on you. You aren't likely to encounter a problem like that if you just go to China and buy one or two for yourself. At the prices you'll pay, you won't have to declare them and if you don't have a whole damn suitcase full of watches, you aren't going to pique Customs' interest when they x-ray your bags.

If you want a $100 beater, and a trip to the PRC isn't in your future, my advice would be to just buy some $100 watch that catches your fancy.

Sidebar Thought:
FWIW, the most expensive thing about going to the PRC is the plane ticket, that is unless you just feel obliged to spend huge sums on other things. That's a real risk. I went to the Versace boutique in one of their high end malls and bought ten items -- pants, jeans, jackets, shirts -- for the equivalent of $680 USD, but rest assured that same store had plenty of stuff that cost $600+ each. I also bought a Dunhill coat for $90 (regular price $900). So you see the risk isn't that you'll buy something that's too pricey. It's that you'll find the bargains irresistible.

When the Chinese folks are of a mind to put something on sale, they aren't playing. They mark it down...way down. I guess they really want it gone at that point. That makes the PRC a really good place to buy authentic RTW goods. Now electronics, you don't want to buy there unless you are buying the fake stuff or the the native Chinese brands.

There are plenty of Chines hotels that are on the order of a Residence Inn or Fairfield Inn and that will run you about $15/night. You can eat really well for $10/meal and like a king for $40. You can also go cheap and have something like grilled chicken leg and thigh, grilled corn on the cob, grilled mushrooms and green beans along with fresh, handmade pasta with lamb, beef, chicken or pork and some veggies for $4. That cheap meal is fresh, tasty and healthier than something you'd find in the U.S for about $18-$22.

All the best.

[originalgoods13]

Originally Posted by RR-NYC

Just so I understand this correctly...

You don't think Rolex has earned the right to charge $10,000 for a watch so you buy counterfeits to fool people into believing that you paid $10,000 for a watch.

Is that correct?

There are plenty of watches that have a Rolex look that aren't counterfeit and don't infringe trademarks. Why not by those?

As far as your point about owning and enjoying a piece of art is interesting. There is a difference between buying a piece of art for the love of art and the artist and buying art as an investment. Below a certain value, there is no such thing as real or fake. In art, real or fake comes into play when an artist name is brought into it.

Let's say you paid $1M for a Picasso and found out its fake. Regardless of whether you bought it for the love of art or as an investment, its worthless because it's not art and has no value. So yes, I would like it less. In fact I would hate it.

I definitely agree on this.

People that buy a replica's main purpose is to DECEIVE people into thinking they have the authentic artifact.

I come across these type of people daily on my items for-sale on local ads and their reason is "I offer what I only think your item is worth" and one offering 1/2 price of a brand new Submariner because "He thinks it is only worth $3,000 to him"

It is a straight cop-out reason for people that cannot afford to buy the authentic piece and blatantly lie to themselves, flaunting their wrists to the general public claiming it is authentic.

Though I could be bitter for paying face value for my Rolex, or maybe I understand why I paid that much for an item, or I have a milestone in my life that I want to celebrate... who knows the reason why people buy authentic and ludicrously spend thousands of dollars on a piece of jewellery?

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by tony20009

...
As far as understanding why folks buy fakes, well there are some reasons that aren't hard to to grasp if one knows of them.

• To get a sense of whether the look is indeed appealing.
• To have a cheap version of an expensive watch to wear when the risk of theft is high
• To buy the least expensive thing one can that looks good
• To experience wearing a look that can only be had by spending vastly greater sums (granted this doesn't apply to a lot of watches)
• To pretend to have the authentic article...

...

1. Red: So when do you plan to buy the authentic IWC?
2. Blue: That one may be something that crosses the mind of folks who travel globally or who do things like charity work in rough, tough neighborhoods. Trust me though, you don't want to go to certain cities wearing expensive stuff as you stroll about just enjoying the place. The quintessential example of that is Rio at Carnival, but that's not the only example. There are also very wonderful places -- places that are safe in terms of your physical safety -- one might visit where leaving things in one's hotel room, even in the safe, isn't a good idea. One thing worth bearing in mind is that outside the U.S., and not including places with an inordinately high risk for terrorism, theft in various forms is the crime travelers are likely to encounter.
3. Green: There are, but I have yet to come across a new watch that looks like the "big names" and that costs ~$25. I see exactly those things in the PRC every time I'm there. India, other parts of Southern and far Eastern Asia, South and Central America, and the Caribbean are also places I've seen similar things. That pretty well covers the majority of the world where one can find such things.
   
   (I wouldn't have offered this were this a "bargain basement shoppers" car forum, but it's not, it's a BMW forum. I think it's safe to say that BMW owners have the means to avail themselves of global markets in a what that buyers having a lower economic demographic don't. But, sure I could be wrong...)
4. Purple: I have to agree that the point I made there can only potentially apply if one chooses a model that is well known enough that the general public would recognize the watch.

All the best.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by tony20009

I have yet to come across a new watch that looks like the "big names" and that costs ~$25.

I guess I should have made it more obvious that the answers I gave were specific to me and not general observations.
I'm certainly no expert but surely the Rolex Sub "style" is one of the most copied looks - OK not for $25 but for a sensible price.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I guess I should have made it more obvious that the answers I gave were specific to me and not general observations.
I'm certainly no expert but surely the Rolex Sub "style" is one of the most copied looks - OK not for $25 but for a sensible price.

Okay...I understand now...all good.

[hongsc]

Save up and buy the real thing. You'll appreciate it more and you can pass the watch on to your kids. Although fake boobs, butt etc are appreciated and can matter. I hope this puts things into perspective.

[DocMick]

the essence of counterfeit is deception, that makes it abhorrent

It's like going to a bank to deposit your money, only to find out it's a sham operation...

It's like going to a doctor, only to find out later he forged his diploma and license...

Well who cares, no one got hurt, and the financial loss was minor. I suppose it all comes down to the kind of person you are, a liar, a sham, a fake. Well in that case, it's right up your alley.

Personally, I hate fakes. No amount of flawless argument against Swiss horology industry will make a fake any more genuine, and a genuine into a fake.

The word replica is garbage. No license exists to replicate, and no stamp of replica on the dial. It's still a pos fake.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by hongsc

Save up and buy the real thing. You'll appreciate it more and you can pass the watch on to your kids. Although fake boobs, butt etc are appreciated and can matter. I hope this puts things into perspective.

Actually, the idea of fake boobs, butts and other cosmetic enhancements are vivid manifestations of imagined self-image issues. (not including cases of genuine deformity) Nature provided for immense variety in the human form just as there's immense variety in the form of every other animal, plant, fungus, rock, etc. in the world. That a person feels so dissatisfied with their own "equipment," so addled by the conventions foisted upon them through "common societal mores," is, IMO even more pitiful that buying a fake watch to satisfy a very similar perceived shortcoming. Indeed, IMO, if wearing a fake watch is all it takes for one to "get over" one's "issue," then by all means, weak a fake watch.

All the best.

[DocMick]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Actually, the idea of fake boobs, butts and other cosmetic enhancements are vivid manifestations of imagined self-image issues. (not including cases of genuine deformity) Nature provided for immense variety in the human form just as there's immense variety in the form of every other animal, plant, fungus, rock, etc. in the world. That a person feels so dissatisfied with their own "equipment," so addled by the conventions foisted upon them through "common societal mores," is, IMO even more pitiful that buying a fake watch to satisfy a very similar perceived shortcoming. Indeed, IMO, if wearing a fake watch is all it takes for one to "get over" one's "issue," then by all means, weak a fake watch.

All the best.

Not really comparable to fake watches. Regardless of the colloquial designation of "fake" wrt body, the reality is that it's an enhancement or correction of shortcomings or flaws of something that is very much real. More along the lines of aftermarket tuning, not fake watches.

[SenorFunkyPants]

There is an interesting variation in attitudes that maybe reflects the posters own reason for owning an expensive designer watch.
No doubt the reason for buying a fake watch (and a Rolex in particular) for many is to infer a state of wealth that they do not have.
Just as the reason for buying a real Rolex for many is simply to flaunt their wealth by owning the most obvious designer brand. I wonder if the more outspoken anti fakes are from this category.
Anyway at the other end of the scale in both camps are the watch enthusiasts for whom its nothing to do with the money, but all about the watches.
At the replica watch site I noted earlier (http://www.replica-watch.info/) there is an incredible level of knowledge and enthusiasm for watches of all sorts. I guess if you have a passion for watches (I don't) but not the money to indulge it, what else can you do?

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by DocMick

Not really comparable to fake watches. Regardless of the colloquial designation of "fake" wrt body, the reality is that it's an enhancement or correction of shortcomings or flaws of something that is very much real. More along the lines of aftermarket tuning, not fake watches.

What shortcoming is it a woman (or man for that matter) is born with that makes you see breast implants (or any other voluntary cosmetic surgical procedure) as fixing something that's broken? (I'm asking seriously because I just don't see the incomparability with the specific fake watch motivation we're discussing.)

I get it with something like a cleft lip or after a mastectomy or some other "thing" that deformed/removed the "stuff" they were born with. But implants or face to alter what's perfectly natural and the result of living doesn't seem like a case of fixing something that's broken. (Note: I'm not talking either about folks who have been diagnosed with BDD.)

All the best.

[RR-NYC]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

There is an interesting variation in attitudes that maybe reflects the posters own reason for owning an expensive designer watch.
No doubt the reason for buying a fake watch (and a Rolex in particular) for many is to infer a state of wealth that they do not have.
Just as the reason for buying a real Rolex for many is simply to flaunt their wealth by owning the most obvious designer brand. I wonder if the more outspoken anti fakes are from this category.
Anyway at the other end of the scale in both camps are the watch enthusiasts for whom its nothing to do with the money, but all about the watches.
At the replica watch site I noted earlier (http://www.replica-watch.info/) there is an incredible level of knowledge and enthusiasm for watches of all sorts. I guess if you have a passion for watches (I don't) but not the money to indulge it, what else can you do?

Yes, there are people that buy a Rolex as a status symbol. Like all luxury goods, including cars, they are aspirational purchases. People dream and work to be able to afford them. At the same time, there are plenty that buy into the brand because of the horological significance. Their movements are arguably the most reliable mechanical movements and the Oyster design is nearly 90 years old.

There is no such thing as a replica enthusiast. They are posers, period. It's like saying someone is a collector of Van Gough reproductions. There is nothing collectable and there is nothing to be passionate about here.

There are plenty of watch enthusiast that don't have money to buy the big names and there are plenty of watches that allow you to enjoy mechanical movements without buying counterfeits.

Coming from a car forum, specifically an M3 forum, I don't understand how there can possible be a disconnect here. What if China started producing a car and called it a BMW M3 but sold it for 10% of the MSRP of a real BMW? To 99% of the world, they are indistinguishable - Would you buy it?

[Z K]

Originally Posted by RR-NYC

Coming from a car forum, specifically an M3 forum, I don't understand how there can possible be a disconnect here. What if China started producing a car and called it a BMW M3 but sold it for 10% of the MSRP of a real BMW? To 99% of the world, they are indistinguishable - Would you buy it?

If the performance and quality is the same, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

I bought my M3 for track performance and daily driving comfort. I could care less if Hyundai made the M3. I did not buy it because of the brand or badging.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Z K

If the performance and quality is the same, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

I bought my M3 for track performance and daily driving comfort. I could care less if Hyundai made the M3. I did not buy it because of the brand or badging.

The problem is a knock off watch can perform as well as the real think or better if you add quartz movement. An fake m3 at 10 percent the cost surely can't.

[RR-NYC]

Originally Posted by Z K

If the performance and quality is the same, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

I bought my M3 for track performance and daily driving comfort. I could care less if Hyundai made the M3. I did not buy it because of the brand or badging.

So you're okay with the company that would unlawfully use the names BMW M3 to brand their car? I'm not talking about a no name performance car. I'm talking about a company stealing the BMW M3 design, and manufacturing one - part for part, and selling it as a BMW M3 even though it's not an M3 nor made by BMW

[chris s]

Originally Posted by RR-NYC

Yes, there are people that buy a Rolex as a status symbol. Like all luxury goods, including cars, they are aspirational purchases. People dream and work to be able to afford them. At the same time, there are plenty that buy into the brand because of the horological significance. Their movements are arguably the most reliable mechanical movements and the Oyster design is nearly 90 years old.

There is no such thing as a replica enthusiast. They are posers, period. It's like saying someone is a collector of Van Gough reproductions. There is nothing collectable and there is nothing to be passionate about here.

There are plenty of watch enthusiast that don't have money to buy the big names and there are plenty of watches that allow you to enjoy mechanical movements without buying counterfeits.

Coming from a car forum, specifically an M3 forum, I don't understand how there can possible be a disconnect here. What if China started producing a car and called it a BMW M3 but sold it for 10% of the MSRP of a real BMW? To 99% of the world, they are indistinguishable - Would you buy it?